Toshiba Launches XDE DVD

[Smokey]

This morning, Toshiba officially announced its new DVD upconversion technology called XDE (which utilize Cell processor), as well as the first DVD player to feature the technology, the XD-E500, which will ship this month for $150.

The idea behind XDE, which stands for extended detail enhancement, isn't that it will compete with Blu-ray, but rather that it will get a little extra performance out of your existing DVD collection and serve as a bridge to high definition--without you having to spend a bundle on new discs.

It upconverts standard definition (480p) DVD content to HD (720p, 1080i or 1080p), requiring HD Monitor with an HDCP capable HDMI or DVI input.

Three selectable setting are available on XD-E500, offering different image enhancing tweaks:

• Sharp Mode offers improved detail enhancement that is one step closer to high definition. Edges are sharper and details in films are more visible. Unlike traditional sharpness control, XDE technology analyses the entire picture and adds edge enhancement precisely where it's needed
  
  
• Colour Mode makes the colours of nature stand out with improved richness. Blues and greens are more vivid and lifelike. Colour Mode combines the improvement in colour with the detail enhancement of Sharp Mode and is ideal for outdoor scenes
  
  
• Contrast Mode is designed to make darker scenes or foregrounds more clearly visible without the typical "washing out" that can occur with traditional contrast adjustment. Recommended for dark scenes where detail may be difficult to notice, Contrast Mode is also combined with Sharp Mode to provide a clearer viewing experience.

XD-E500 also can output in 24 frames per second mode, reducing jitter associated with 2:3 Pull Down method. Viewing 24 frames per second requires an HD display capable of accepting a 1080p/24 Hz signal.

Here is more information on Toshiba's web site:

http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvd/prod...?model=xd-e500

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

This morning, Toshiba officially announced its new DVD upconversion technology called XDE (which utilize Cell processor), as well as the first DVD player to feature the technology, the XD-E500, which will ship this month for $150.

The idea behind XDE, which stands for extended detail enhancement, isn't that it will compete with Blu-ray, but rather that it will get a little extra performance out of your existing DVD collection and serve as a bridge to high definition--without you having to spend a bundle on new discs.

It upconverts standard definition (480p) DVD content to HD (720p, 1080i or 1080p), requiring HD Monitor with an HDCP capable HDMI or DVI input.

Three selectable setting are available on XD-E500, offering different image enhancing tweaks:

• Sharp Mode offers improved detail enhancement that is one step closer to high definition. Edges are sharper and details in films are more visible. Unlike traditional sharpness control, XDE technology analyses the entire picture and adds edge enhancement precisely where it's needed
  
  
• Colour Mode makes the colours of nature stand out with improved richness. Blues and greens are more vivid and lifelike. Colour Mode combines the improvement in colour with the detail enhancement of Sharp Mode and is ideal for outdoor scenes
  
  
• Contrast Mode is designed to make darker scenes or foregrounds more clearly visible without the typical "washing out" that can occur with traditional contrast adjustment. Recommended for dark scenes where detail may be difficult to notice, Contrast Mode is also combined with Sharp Mode to provide a clearer viewing experience.

XD-E500 also can output in 24 frames per second mode, reducing jitter associated with 2:3 Pull Down method. Viewing 24 frames per second requires an HD display capable of accepting a 1080p/24 Hz signal.

Here is more information on Toshiba's web site:

http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvd/prod...?model=xd-e500

Oh great, it adds the very thing that is the bane of the DVD, edge enhancement, a peristant problem already that causes halo's around the edges of objects. So you have edge enhancement already in the source, with Toshiba's added edge enhancement, yuck.

Color mode and contrast mode are useless when your television is properly calibrated. All I can say is good luck Toshiba.

[E-Stat]

...but rather that it will get a little extra performance out of your existing DVD collection and serve as a bridge to high definition--without you having to spend a bundle on new discs.

Apparently, they recognize companies like Oppo that already provide similar features are eating them for lunch. My 971H already bridges the gap quite a bit.

rw

[Spancticles]

i agree with sir terrence
i can get color mode just by
accidentally taking too much
cough syrup

[Smokey]

Oh great, it adds the very thing that is the bane of the DVD, edge enhancement, a peristant problem already that causes halo's around the edges of objects. So you have edge enhancement already in the source, with Toshiba's added edge enhancement, yuck.

I agree that Edge Enhancement does obscures picture detail, but if it is done right (not too much) and with right source, it does enhance the picture a bit as it give it more 3D effect.

I had a Panasonic 27 inch TV back in 1999 that had Velocity Scan Modulation which is basically similar to edge enhancement feature, and when engaged it made picture sparkle and sharp as a razor. Not too much as cover up the details, but enough to enhance a flat images such as black and white images.
And for first time I could see stage lighting in actor’s eye balls with VSM engaged which was hardly noticeable when VSM was off.

Toshiba said that it is using a Cell Processor (what is the world is that?) that is supposedly "smart"--meaning it only adds edge enhancement to certain parts of the image. So I might give them benefit of doubt. The review for this player have not come out yet, so we may have to take “lets wait and see” attitude.

Apparently, they recognize companies like Oppo that already provide similar features are eating them for lunch. My 971H already bridges the gap quite a bit.

But it seem Toshiba is offering those features at half price of Oppo players.

[pixelthis]

"FROM HELLS OWN HEART I STAB AT THEE"
One last dig at the new format, BLU RAY.
Basically scan velo modulation and "smart" contrast, better watch it, it might turn into a terminator, start dialing up Skynet or something.
I HATE SCAN VELOCITY SO MUCH that I took the cover off of my first HDTV (a Panny 47") and disabled it at the crt(all three of em)
basically the only way to turn it off, noise by any other name.
Blu is evoutionary, true, but a big enough leap to render all disscussion
of "getting by" with great upconversion moot, especially since blu players do great upconversion as a bonus anyway.
I was somewhat worried about mr p and his critiqe of upconversion
with his samsung Blu player, I neednt have worried.
The upconversion on my new player isnt true HD, but its close.
So why buy a 300 (or even 150) dollar player that doesnt do blu?
MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.
I watched serenity on my blu player last night, it was simply amazing,
there is a site that compares upconversion on my player with a 1200 dollar scaler, I WAS DUBIOUS but no more.
So the future of this project?
Well, theres no market. PQ addicts will get a BLU, cheapskates will
say that their player from BILLS DOLLAR STORE (free with a case of thunderbird) is good enough.
DVD is 480i BTW, not 480p, a DVD couldnt hold a true 480p signal,
further emphasizing its obsolescense.
I predict that as prices fall, people will pass right by this one to get the latest blu player, which will be around 200 bucks in no time.
This will be an historical footnote, not much more, kinda like putting a horse on crack to keep up with autimobiles

[Rich-n-Texas]

"FROM HELLS OWN HEART I STAB AT THEE"

Pix has been reading Shakespeare. Impressive.

One last dig at the new format, BLU RAY.
Basically scan velo modulation and "smart" contrast, better watch it, it might turn into a terminator, start dialing up Skynet or something.

I'm getting caught back up with The Sarah Conner Chronicles myself.

I HATE SCAN VELOCITY SO MUCH that I took the cover off of my first HDTV (a Panny 47") and disabled it at the crt(all three of em)
basically the only way to turn it off, noise by any other name.

This is why they only let him have a Visio.

Blu is evoutionary, true, but a big enough leap to render all disscussion
of "getting by" with great upconversion moot, especially since blu players do great upconversion as a bonus anyway.

So in actuallity, VOD is dead right?

I was somewhat worried about mr p and his critiqe of upconversion
with his samsung Blu player, I neednt have worried.

Capital P.

The upconversion on my new player isnt true HD, but its close.

Have you paid your friend yet for it? It came from DOLLAR RIOT right?

So why buy a 300 (or even 150) dollar player that doesnt do blu?
MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.
I watched serenity on my blu player last night, it was simply amazing,
there is a site that compares upconversion on my player with a 1200 dollar scaler, I WAS DUBIOUS but no more.

Ya know, it seems to me that Sir Talky's message has finally gotten across to you, IMO.

So the future of this project?
Well, theres no market. PQ addicts will get a BLU, cheapskates will
say that their player from BILLS DOLLAR STORE (free with a case of thunderbird) is good enough.

This is where you come in right? Must be since you know about the Thunderbird deal.

DVD is 480i BTW, not 480p, a DVD couldnt hold a true 480p signal,
further emphasizing its obsolescense.
I predict that as prices fall, people will pass right by this one to get the latest blu player, which will be around 200 bucks in no time.
This will be an historical footnote, not much more, kinda like putting a horse on crack to keep up with autimobiles

I'd swear you're sounding more and more like a BR advocate everyday. VOD is DEAD!!! Long live Blu-ray!

[kexodusc]

Sounds like this will be even less successful than the S-VHS hail mary was...

[L.J.]

Hmmm......Are these new players gonna be bundled with a mail-in rebate for 10 free mediocre DVDs

[drseid]

Definitely a gimick and not worth a penny, IMO. Why buy a DVD player that makes DVDs look *worse*? I am unhappy about HD DVD's demise, but this is just lame on Toshiba's part and a terrible idea in general. I am sure it will fail.

---Dave

[kexodusc]

I think we can't really blame Toshiba here - they're strategy all along has been to extend the DVD license cash cow they have enjoyed for as long as they feasibly can. This is a low cost hardware investment that could conceivably be profitable on its own, and if it stretches the life of DVD even by weeks probably makes sense from their point of view.

Stuff like this is always part of the exit strategy of any product past maturity.

Still...a part of me just wishes the world would move on sooner rather than later.

[bobsticks]

Pix has been reading Shakespeare. Impressive.

Don't be too quick to hand out accolades. I'm pretty sure he cribbed it off an old Star Trek movie.

[GMichael]

Don't be too quick to hand out accolades. I'm pretty sure he cribbed it off an old Star Trek movie.

That movie was on last night.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I agree that Edge Enhancement does obscures picture detail, but if it is done right (not too much) and with right source, it does enhance the picture a bit as it give it more 3D effect.

Here is the rub bear type individual. Edge enhancement is already in the source, and its over done to the bone. As a disc reviewer have seen far too many DVD's, and quiet as it is kept bluray's as well with too much edge enhancement, too much to the point that halo's are clearly seen around sharp objects. The problem here is that its already apart of the source because the studios have to pre-filter the video before encoding, and an attempt to sharpen after pre-filtering has always produced the worst kind of side effects. With this players circuitry (since it does not do pre-analysis) you will not be able to tell it that there is already edge enhancement in the source, or not.

I had a Panasonic 27 inch TV back in 1999 that had Velocity Scan Modulation which is basically similar to edge enhancement feature, and when engaged it made picture sparkle and sharp as a razor. Not too much as cover up the details, but enough to enhance a flat images such as black and white images.
And for first time I could see stage lighting in actor’s eye balls with VSM engaged which was hardly noticeable when VSM was off.

I would advance that videotape and television signal were the primary source that was played on this television. With the rolled off high frequency of video tape and broadcast, this would probably be a complimentary feature. Now with the extended frequency response of both DVD and Bluray, SVM is usually defeated during calibration. That was the first thing I did with every projection source I have had since I could remember.

Toshiba said that it is using a Cell Processor (what is the world is that?) that is supposedly "smart"--meaning it only adds edge enhancement to certain parts of the image. So I might give them benefit of doubt. The review for this player have not come out yet, so we may have to take “lets wait and see” attitude.

The cell processor is the same process used in the PS3, but this one is a smaller 45nano sized one used in the latest PS3 SKU.(the earlier one was a 90nano in the 60 and 20GB models). Its a very powerful and expensive processor, and quite frankly at $150 Toshiba is taking another loss on this one. As a matter of fact, it cost Toshiba more to make this player than Sony to make the PS3. However, there are no real application for the Cell processor at this moment, and Toshiba bought the manufacturing rights to the processor and must do something with it. It would have been smarter to put this processor in their televisions rather than this player, because there is no guarantee this DVD player is going to sell when sitting next to other upscaling DVD players.

But it seem Toshiba is offering those features at half price of Oppo players.

The question becomes, with DVD sales falling year after year, will the public look backwards for a player that supports nothing but SD video, or will they look forward to a player that supports both HD and SD sources. That is the million dollar question.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I think we can't really blame Toshiba here - they're strategy all along has been to extend the DVD license cash cow they have enjoyed for as long as they feasibly can. This is a low cost hardware investment that could conceivably be profitable on its own, and if it stretches the life of DVD even by weeks probably makes sense from their point of view.

Stuff like this is always part of the exit strategy of any product past maturity.

Still...a part of me just wishes the world would move on sooner rather than later.

Kex, this solution is not so cheap, and their DVD royalties have been falling for years. Each year the royalties are re-caluclated, and Toshiba's cut of the pie get's smaller and smaller. Secondly this is not a low cost piece of hardware. It incorporates a less powerful version of the PS3 Cell processor, which is smaller than the PS3's cell processor, but nevertheless an expensive processor. The parts cost make this player more expensive to produce than a standard bluray player, so most everyone believes that they are losing money producing this player(as Sony did using the Cell in the PS3).

The problem is, its going to take more than a player to stop the slide of DVD sales. The next feature you are going to see on this player(if it actually sells, and the studios actually support it) is a ethernet port that supports downloads of added value extra's, much like bluray has with BD live. The problem is Toshiba originally wanted to market this player as a bluray killer(or at least a BR hinderer), and the studio I work for has openly told Toshiba that if this product is developed to start another war of sort, it will not produce any downloadable value content to support the player if and when it get's that ethernet port. Sony has already said it wasn't already, and I am not surprised if Fox said the same thing.

[jamison]

I think the money would be better spent buying 5 blu ray discs.

[pixelthis]

[QUOTE]

Pix has been reading Shakespeare. Impressive.

Watching the wrath of khan actually.
Figures you'd know nothing about the true classics

I'm getting caught back up with The Sarah Conner Chronicles myself.

The new terminator movie with Bale as john conner will render it obsolete

This is why they only let him have a Visio.

I choose a Visio, just because the apparati at TI wont let you have anything but a DLP the size of the box the USS LINCOLN
came in doesnt mean the rest of us are so limited

So in actuallity, VOD is dead right?

What has this to do with anything
Non sequiter city

Capital P.

Have you paid your friend yet for it? It came from DOLLAR RIOT right?

CIRCUIT CITY, not all of us are crazy (and cheapskate) enough to order major electronics from , of all places, new jersey
MAIL ORDER is ok, but not from a third world UN eco disaster zone.

Ya know, it seems to me that Sir Talky's message has finally gotten across to you, IMO.

The only message that has gotten across to me from talky is that hes a jr high student that can google really well to cover up his ignorance
of just about anything.
Tells a good story tho. Crackheaded but interesting

This is where you come in right? Must be since you know about the Thunderbird deal.

One of my crack hos told me about it. Probably too rich for you

I'd swear you're sounding more and more like a BR advocate everyday. VOD is DEAD!!! Long live Blu-ray!

I have never changed my positon on Blu or VOD.
i came out and predicted it the winner months ago.
I thought it the best format for movie collecting but knew that it had a limited window for getting established before VOD really got up steam.
And with DRM popping up everywhere a good format for collecting movies is important, since you wont be able to bootleg anymore.
Why is it one or the other? Vod will be for everyday casual use, for
kickass experience and collecting BLU will be it, no reason the two cant co-exist, unlike your brain and logic, which cant be in the same room at the same time, fundamental breakdown in the universe if that happens

[Smokey]

I would advance that videotape and television signal were the primary source that was played on this television. With the rolled off high frequency of video tape and broadcast, this would probably be a complimentary feature.

Yes, the source was from television signal. I used VSM feature mostly on TCM channel where most program were old black and white movies. It brought t image to life. And on color programs, it mad any type lights on screen sparkle.

But also had VSM on other TVs such as JVC where it made picture look even worse, even with black and white images.

The cell processor is the same process used in the PS3, but this one is a smaller 45nano sized one used in the latest PS3 SKU.(the earlier one was a 90nano in the 60 and 20GB models). Its a very powerful and expensive processor, and quite frankly at $150 Toshiba is taking another loss on this one. As a matter of fact, it cost Toshiba more to make this player than Sony to make the PS3.

Wow, that sound like an impressive processor. But the question is why Toshiba is taking this route knowing that they will lose money since DVD player market is already flooded with cheap players. Haven’t they learned a lesson from HD-DVD adventure?

But if price on this dvd player fall, this might actually be bargain player for those looking for DVD player.

The question becomes, with DVD sales falling year after year, will the public look backwards for a player that supports nothing but SD video, or will they look forward to a player that supports both HD and SD sources. That is the million dollar question.

This is just a hunch, but I think Toshiba may have geared this product toward those that have large library of DVDs and not yet ready to replace them with BR. And looking for something better than ordinary upconversion DVD players on the market. Lets face it, there are not too many quality DVD players out there except may be from Denon or Oppo.

[Mr Peabody]

I'd like to see where it says Toshiba is losing money on these players. No one who has a successful corporation like Toshiba would be so dumb as to enter into a money losing project after the HD-DVD war. Either way though Toshiba has a big marketing issue trying to explain to consumers why this player is better than other upconverting DVD players. This player is about the same price as a HD-DVd player was. It may have a nitch though for those wanting a great DVD picture who may not need SACD playback or wanting to pay for it.

An article I read from Assc.. Press said they picture was sharper and clearer on big screen TV's compared to other upconverting DVD players but Toshiba did not show a comparison of the player to BR. They admit that BR has 6 times the picture capacity and BR is not their intended competition. Toshiba claims the intent was to give DVD a sharper clearer picture on large screen TV's. I have to admit though if one had to pay the money for a 1080p to reap full benefit of this player you might as well go BR and get the full benefit of 1080p. We also have to keep in mind that the closest priced BR player is more than double the price of this Toshiba player.

On one hand many in the industry say Blu-ray is just a nitch still but on the other hand I see a lot of DVD dumping going on. Those intent on staying or keeping DVD can pick them up cheap now. Will a DVD exodus snowball? It wouldn't seem so but it does look like retailers are positioning for one. I have to admit some of the cheap prices are tempting, I saw 3 Schwartzenager movies in a package for $10.00 and picked them up. A place here in town is advertising DVD 3 for $12.00. That's cheaper than renting.

CEDIA is only a couple weeks away so it will be interesting to see what new products will be coming for Fall and further down the road how consumers vote with their dollars.

Pix, which BR player did you end up with?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

For the uniformed(and one did just join this thread) the cell processor this player uses, though smaller and less powerful, is pretty close to the cell used in the PS3. Kjack, a bluray insider who's company programs that chip for Toshiba says they are losing money on every player that incorporates that chip when the player is priced at $150. If the player was priced closer to $225, it would make a small profit. Now their are certain peabrained individuals that I once told that Toshiba was losing money on each HD DVD player, but he declined to believe me then. Now that Toshiba has report a $950 million dollar loss on HD DVD operations, that fool still does not believe that Toshiba would launch a money losing operation. I guess when you only have a peabrain to work with, grasping simple economics might just be a little tough. Especially when that little peabrain is still chewing on state of the art upscaling of DVD as a major function of a HD movie player. {sarcasm off}

[Mr Peabody]

It would seem simple enough economics that IF a corporation lost 950 million dollars and wanted to stay in business they would not knowingly put a product on the market that would loose more money. So maybe you can break it down for me how continuous loss leads to profit.

Terry you blurtted out an assumption you can't back up and all the name dropping from your imaginary friends can't cover your butt. So take a lesson from an old man, keep your mouth shut so you can't insert your foot. If my brain is small you shouldn't be picking on me. Shame on you for harassing the handicapped.

[Smokey]

Please guys, lets stay on topic and no name calling

Toshiba claims the intent was to give DVD a sharper clearer picture on large screen TV's. I have to admit though if one had to pay the money for a 1080p to reap full benefit of this player you might as well go BR and get the full benefit of 1080p.

That is true. But you also have to realize that BR catalog is not huge as of now, so one is pretty much limited to newer releases. But you can pretty much get any movies you want on DVD. And as you said, most stored are pretty much giving them away. So there is still some life left in DVD market via bargain bins.

It would seem simple enough economics that IF a corporation lost 950 million dollars and wanted to stay in business they would not knowingly put a product on the market that would loose more money. So maybe you can break it down for me how continuous loss leads to profit.

I think that is a fair question. Losing money on HD-DVD by Toshiba is understandable due to it competition with Sony as it was trying to make a foothold, but why lose money with this DVD player since DVD is already established medium.

[pixelthis]

Please guys, lets stay on topic and no name calling

Wheres the fun in that?

That is true. But you also have to realize that BR catalog is not huge as of now, so one is pretty much limited to newer releases. But you can pretty much get any movies you want on DVD. And as you said, most stored are pretty much giving them away. So there is still some life left in DVD market via bargain bins.

If you're a huge cheapskate.
I have seen quite a few blu movies on my player, they rent at Blockbuster, and there are dozens at various outlets.
I can understand why the companies are focusing on upscale titles, but its a mistake, I SAW dozens of titles at WALMART while picking up
some cheap drinks, you can only watch so many movies, if you concentrate on building your collection you never will run outta stuff to buy, Fifth element and terminator II were fourteen bucks, not five but the quality jump is huge.
There is no need to worry about making your DVD collection obsolete,
quite the contrary, I have watched several that I see no reason to replace, because the standard version looks so good on my player, especialy "high bit" discs

I think that is a fair question. Losing money on HD-DVD by Toshiba is understandable due to it competition with Sony as it was trying to make a foothold, but why lose money with this DVD player since DVD is already established medium.

They are not losing money.
There is a lot more that goes into a player besides the video proc.
And have you seen the ads? clearly shooting for a "younger" market,
they arent saying it but intimating that this player is "just as good" as
a Blu disc player.
ALSO YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND that sometimes its not about the money.
HD on disc for Tosh was DOA almost from the start, and everybody knew it. Dont underestimate the power of being pissed off.
They might lose a few hundred mill, chump change really.
Still I think its a mistake. THEY COULD JOIN FORCES WITH their old foes and put out cheaper players, but since when has common sense ever been a major factor in corporate descision?
In the eighties instead of going with an established system (laserdisc)
RCA went with CED videodisc, and lost five hundred million, about a billion in todays dollars, so its not like its never happened before.
But I find it puzzling as to just who will buy this player.
Paying such a huge sum so you can hit the bargain bin at Walmart
is kinda silly.
When I EXPLAINED to friends and family that my DVD player was 130 bucks (on closeout) they thought that was rediculous.
And the 600 dollar one I bought when you could get one for a hundred bucks?
PLEASE

[Feanor]

...
Terry you blurtted out an assumption you can't back up and all the name dropping from your imaginary friends can't cover your butt. So take a lesson from an old man, keep your mouth shut so you can't insert your foot. If my brain is small you shouldn't be picking on me. Shame on you for harassing the handicapped.

Sir Terrance does NOT like to be contradicted. If you make that mistake you are likely to be called an ignorant peabrain and a liar.

[Smokey]

I can understand why the companies are focusing on upscale titles, but its a mistake, I SAW dozens of titles at WALMART while picking up some cheap drinks, you can only watch so many movies, if you concentrate on building your collection you never will run outta stuff to buy, Fifth element and terminator II were fourteen bucks, not five but the quality jump is huge.

Idon't disagree that quality jump might not be huge (better is probably more accurate), but you also have to consider the content also. I must have seen T2 and Fifth Element (have FE on Superbit) 100 times already, and don't think be spending more money on same title just for sake of better resolution and color.

And once the wow factor is gone , we re back to square one as far as content is concern. I rather spend on a movie on DVD that have not seen before.

Also check out this exhausting review where the reviewer put Toshiba DVD player against Onkyo DV-HD805 and Oppo DV-981HD upconvert players which cost 2 to 3 times more than Toshiba. And results are eye opener.

http://www.amazon.com/review/product...R211E844VYQ78D

Sir Terrance does NOT like to be contradicted. If you make that mistake you are likely to be called an ignorant peabrain and a liar.

In Rodney King voice......

"Can't we all get along without name calling"