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Originally Posted by Feanor
I can say what I want as freely as anyone, as for example, you, Groundbeef.
I didn't say I give a damn about the children of Darfur; only that such issues are more worthy of heated debate than Blu-ray vs. HDDVD.
What I did say -- and which is perfectly relevant to this thread -- is that hi-rez video is frivolous as an improvement over standard DVD, implying that most people would do well to save their money at least for the time being. Care to debate that??
Unfortunatly, as with most e-conversations much is lost without inflection. Of course there arre more pressing world issues. But, here at least HD-DVD/BluRay is one HOT topic.
It wouldn't be much of a board if we all sat back and waited for the battle to be over. It's much more fun, and entertaining to argue as though life depends upon being on the victor's side of the battle.
And, as an owner of a HD-DVD, I can assure you that there is an improvement over DVD. But of course, I own a plasma display, so it's not like I'm watching for a difference between HD-DVD/DVD on a S-Cable on a 10 year old CRT.
Anyway, thanks for throwing your hat into the ring. Seems most people shy away from scrumming once in a while. Heck, I waited 9 pages before jumping in.
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Early adopters
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Originally Posted by Groundbeef
Unfortunatly, as with most e-conversations much is lost without inflection. Of course there arre more pressing world issues. But, here at least HD-DVD/BluRay is one HOT topic.
It wouldn't be much of a board if we all sat back and waited for the battle to be over. It's much more fun, and entertaining to argue as though life depends upon being on the victor's side of the battle.
And, as an owner of a HD-DVD, I can assure you that there is an improvement over DVD. But of course, I own a plasma display, so it's not like I'm watching for a difference between HD-DVD/DVD on a S-Cable on a 10 year old CRT.
Anyway, thanks for throwing your hat into the ring. Seems most people shy away from scrumming once in a while. Heck, I waited 9 pages before jumping in.
Early adopters make their own decision about risks and value of a new product, etc. Assuming they go in with their eyes open, they are above criticism.
I'm anything but an earlier adopter myself; heck, my TV is a 27" CRT. First, I'd need to spring for an HD TV, then an HD video format might become an issue.
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Originally Posted by L.J.
PS, perhaps you need to go back and reread this thread. Several of your posts in this thread have been nothing but troll attempts and personal attacks that had nothing to do with the subject. How quickly you forget that a mod had to delete one of your posts for insulting another member. The reason for deletion was "rude personal attack". How was that post related to the discussion?
What about this recent thread. Your first comment was a personal attack that had nothing to do with the subject at hand. Look at your own actions before you go runnin' off pointing fingers.
Gee golly you must be right...I must have been the first person to ever personally attack someone here. Oh wait, nope...about 90% of this post is an attack on someone. Nightflier, SirT, and Myself were having a debate going back and forth, then along comes Wooch, Kex, and Youself.....do you contribute to the debate? Nope, instead you take out your personal feelings from something that I said before towards you or something else you didn't like that I said from another place in time and let out your feelings here. Now contribute to this topic or leave and quit wasting my time replying so that I can also get back on topic.
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Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
Gee golly
Please tell me your joking
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Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
you must be right...I must have been the first person to ever personally attack someone here.
I simply told you to go back and reread this thread. Well at least your admitting YOU are the one doing the personal attacks.
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Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
Oh wait, nope...about 90% of this post is an attack on someone.
Glad you noticed that.....so why are you trying to call out only 3 members. Make sure to turn that finger around and point it at yourself
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Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
Nightflier, SirT, and Myself were having a debate going back and forth, then along comes Wooch, Kex, and Youself.....do you contribute to the debate? Nope, instead you take out your personal feelings from something that I said before towards you or something else you didn't like that I said from another place in time and let out your feelings here.
Personal feelings....please. Just calling you out on being a hater. Let me quote you on something.
" If you notice that his insults are off-topic and are juvenile, like whorehouses and comments about me not having a girlfriend etc etc. These are indeed desperate attempts from a troll trying to get under my skin since he doesn't have any other weapon to use other than to put down my equipment, my job, or other things about me that he doesn't really know anything about."
Is this not exactly what you did when you posted a picture of another member and his wife followed by rude, personal attacks. Again, what did that have to do with the discussion?
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Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
Now contribute to this topic or leave and quit wasting my time replying so that I can also get back on topic.
You are wasting your own time. This is a open forum and I have contributed to this thread. I have done no different than you. If your gonna try to call out members for personal attacks, be prepared to have yourself called out as well.
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Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
The arguments here are between Sir T and Nightflier, Sir T and Me, and Sir T and Groundbeef. We are discussing things that relate to Blu-ray.
Notice how people like Woochifer, LJ, and Kex are contributing NOTHING to the actually discussion and debate, but rather attacking me for my discussion and arguments.
Nothing? Actually, over the course of this thread I've contributed many more substantive points of discussion relevant to the topic than you. Of course, you wouldn't have noticed, since you were busy getting into yet another pissing match with Pixel. :sleep:
As for your playing the victim card for the umpteenth time, posters like L.J., Kex, and myself are doing nothing more than pointing out the parallels between your own behavior on this board and what you accuse others of, and the disconnect between what you claim to do on this board and what you actually do.
If you want to credibly play the victim, stop being a perpetrator. If you want to credibly whine about how people stray from the topic, maybe you shouldn't go off-topic yourself. If you want to take a stance against personal attacks, then stop engaging in them. Makes sense to me! :cornut:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
Gee golly you must be right...I must have been the first person to ever personally attack someone here. Oh wait, nope...about 90% of this post is an attack on someone. Nightflier, SirT, and Myself were having a debate going back and forth, then along comes Wooch, Kex, and Youself.....do you contribute to the debate? Nope, instead you take out your personal feelings from something that I said before towards you or something else you didn't like that I said from another place in time and let out your feelings here. Now contribute to this topic or leave and quit wasting my time replying so that I can also get back on topic.
There you go again playing the victim card - nobody forced you off topic - you went that way when you started calling people trolls.
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Originally Posted by Groundbeef
Do you get interference from your tinfoil hat when you sit down to bloviate on this board? Even you rely on someone else's expertise, numbers or other data to form your opinions, and usually incorrect assumptions. So whos more gullible? The guy who admits that he uses other data examined by others more qualified, or someone like yourself who discount's data simply because it doesn't buttress your rather weak arguments?
Am I talking to an adult or a kid?. Kids wear tinfoil hats, not adults. Have you been reading nightflier comments about the ability of interested parties(such as Sony and Toshiba, the HD DVD PG and the BDA) taking accurate information(such as NDP sales numbers) and twisting them to their advantage? He does have a point, which is why I subscribe to NDP myself. I read the data straight from the page with no spin, no marketing filters. Its straight from the source. Now a fanboy would rather not read it for himself. They would rather take the spin from Toshiba, than read for themselves. It give them a false impression that their choice in formats is secure. I call it shifting sinking sand.
So to make the clear, you believe it is better to get your information through an interested party spin and all rather than reading it for yourself?
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I'll only give you 1/2 a point. Technically it wouldn't qualify as a "standalone" in the aspect that it doesn't work without either an xbox 360 or a vista PC with the correct software. However, you need to take your blinders off if you can't admit the ONLY reason someone would purchase it is to watch movies. Because that is its ONLY function. This would differentiate it from the PS3, who can play games AND decode Blu-Ray movies. However, the difference is huge. PS3, cannont be counted as a 1 to 1 translation between sales, and movie players. Some people may NEVER use the PS3 to watch Blu-Ray movies. But a consumer that buys the HD-DVD drive for the 360 most certainly is going to watch movies, because its the ONLY thing it does. See the difference, or are you going to continue on this thread?
Hedging your arguement now huh. You are completely missing the point to what exactly constitutes a stand alone player. Websters:
SELF-CONTAINED; especially : operating or capable of operating independently of a computer system <a stand-alone word processor>
Key words here "capable of operating independantly". Sorry, but the HD DVD add to the XBOX does not fall into that catagory, no matter how you try and force it with spin. As you can plain read, the definition does not speak of intended use by the end user, it speaks directly to the function of the player. You are attempted to blend purpose and function tegether much like you blend abiltiy to and is done. This is not about taking the blinders off, this is about knowing the difference between function and use.
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And what basis are you suggesting that 20% is inaccurate? Do you have a better %?
You said yourself Unlike the dual-purpose PS3, where it is very difficult to determine the actual usage (either movie/game). [/quote]
How do you apply a percentage to who does what, when it is difficult to determine how they are using it? This defies logical sense.
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And that would be what? That MS didn't want to saddle users with a feature that many won't utilize? Or that MS felt that if a consumer wants HD video they will buy it later? Or go the PS3 route and jam unneeded tech down a consumers throat and charge them a mint (console cost wise) for it?
If microsoft was as committed to HD DVD as they say they are, then putting the drive in the game machine would cement that commitment. Otherwise it appears that Microsoft is using HD DVD as a platform to test out their VC-1 codec in the field and prepare it for downloading movies. After all, it was Bill Gates that said "movies on disc is dead". After all, it is the montra of the microsoft guys to compress the video more agressively( no opening up the bit budget) in VC-1. The only reason to compress agressively is to keep file sizes down, and the HD DVD format does not have to do that to that degree. Microsoft does have its hand deep in the downloading area, which is where agressive compression is most needed. I smell a rat....
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If you want a PS3, have one. No one said you shouldn't buy it. I hope you enjoy yours. And the comment about "kids games", care to elaborate, or are you going to leave it at that? Perhaps you had forgotten that the PS3 simply doesn't even have 1/4 of the library of the 360?
I don't care about kids games. I care about the ability of the PS3 to play bluray movies, upscale my DVD's to 1080p, play CD and SACD(which it does extremely well) store music, and stream music, and be upgradeable. That is why I bought the PS3. How many games they have carries no interest for me. From what I have seen on Bluray.com, there are alot of folks that bought the PS3 for the same reasons.
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And you must have forgotten how to read. Unless you live in New Zealand, or Australia, this isn't going to do you much good. There are NO plans to expand this to North America. And considering it is incompatible with both ASTC and the Digital Signal in the US, it doesn't appear to be all that compelling! And that's straight from Sony, so I guess I shouldn't trust it.
However, the 360 is currently the largest provider of HD content delivered on demand. It surpasses cable, sat, and ITunes. Sony....not so much.
Didn't forget how to read, you said that the PS3 couldn't do it at all, I showed that it can do it. Where it can do it doesn't matter that much, the product can handle the task.
The HD content on the 360 is 720p(far less information than 1080p) carries two channel stereo tracks(not even competitive with compressed 5.1), full of DRM, time limits, and has video so compressed that it is proned to visual artifacting that is clearly visible on large screen sets. I like quality, not compromised qualtity.
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Never said they couldn't do them. Was responding to you suggesting that only the PS3 was a "media center". BTW nice article from 2005. The way technology moves these days, its comforting to see that the best you can do is over 2 years old! Nice work. Almost had to dig that one up from microfishe?
That the article came from 2005 shows just how out of date your knowledge of the product is. Its not about the best you can do, its about pointing out that you are spreading pure uncut FUD. Even if it came from microfishe, it showed that you were indeed incorrect.
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I don't know. You didn't like my numbers. So tell me why they are wrong. Do you have more accurate numbers?
I already told you why they are wrong. This is HD DVD fanboy FUD. Here are your words once again.
Unlike the dual-purpose PS3, where it is very difficult to determine the actual usage (either movie/game).
You have used the words estimate, and very difficult to determine actual usage. That clearly means that it is impossible to put a number on it. The HD DVD group has to spin this into a number, so they can push the attachment rate argument, and de-emphasize the effect of the PS3. The problem is, you cannot ignore or marginalize a product because it falls outside of your product understanding. They(meaning the HD DVD group) believe that only standalone sales matter, the problem with that is a media center is the reason they are getting their collective butts kicked in software sales.
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Never said "no one" is using it for movies. And I guess since the PS3 doesn't actually have games worth playing, people are using it for movies. Like any $600 gaming machine should be used!
Mine cost was $499, not $600. I am not interested in XBOX fanboyism either, games do not interest me in the least. You cannot provide a number to an unknown, and that is what I was taking issue with.
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Got a better source? Dig one up from 2004 perhaps...I'm sure they are more accurate. And not being able to return open media is not BS. If I bought a movie, and couldn't watch because of some crappy DRM, I'd want to return it. And, chances are, if I owned a stand alone BR player, I would have to wait for a physical update to be sent to me, because ethernet ISN"T mandated. So yeah, I'd return it. No FUD here, just more smoke and mirrors from you.
No need for a better source, the problem is over, the firmware is available. That website is trying to make this seem like these Samsung and LG owners are left out it the dark, and you are try to portray this as a studio screwing someone over. Neither of these two perspectives reflect reality. They are way overblown.
Secondly, you do not have to return the movie. That is bull and you know good and damn well it is. Once the firmware is available and installed, the player plays the movie just fine. Funny thing is, when I checked over at Bluray.com, many folks had already gotten their firmware disc, installed the patch, and were already enjoying the movie.
I have the XA2, and the ethernet port is mandatory. However I have no connection near my equipment rack, and am not about to pay for one to support one player. So this mandated ethernet port is useless to me. When I purchased Children of men combo disc, it wouldn't play in my player. I had to wait nearly two months to get my firmware disc. And you want to complain about what a BR player doesn't have? At least those who own one get their disc in a much more timely fashion than HD DVD owners do. Another instance. Toshiba wanted to and 24fps playback to my player. It took two months for me to get my disc, 6 phone calls, and when it did came, it made my player so unstable that it could not play a singe HD DVD disc without the dialog getting out of sync. I was not alone on this because all it took was one trip to HD DVD land AVS.com and I found there were many folks experiencing what I had.
That ethernet hookup is useless unless people actually use it. And there is plenty of evidence that they are not. The long delays in getting discs to owners means that next to nobody is using these port which make them essentially useless. Ability and actual usage are a long way from each other.
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No, you didn't mention hard facts. In fact, usually you don't. It's easier to defend your position if you don't actually have any info to back it up. You can keep shifting position to match your target. And when you do find info its out of date, or so old its useless. Please for the record, post ANY current data supporting your statement that Toshiba is having trouble keeping up with firmware discs.
Once again, nobody has taken any accurate survey of users with HD DVD players hooked up via their ethernet ports. So there are no hard numbers to mention. However given the long delays in getting firmware disc into the hands of player owners, one has only to believe that not many are hooked up.
You don't need data to support my statement that Toshiba is having trouble keeping up with firmware disc. I experienced it, not once, but three times. Their own customer service has said it, other owners have said it, so there are no need for numbers. It just takes one to come out of their cave, get around the net, and read(which has proven very difficult for a few here to do)
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Wrong again. The Terrible part, must be your math ablities. 100% of HD-DVD players are internet (ethernet port onboard) cabable. Thats stand alone, 360 addon, 100% every one.
No, I am not wrong. That last worldwide sales figures for ALL HD DVD players and drives sat at 650k. The last worldwide sale figures for all BR players including the PS3 was 5.5 million with 400k being standalones. This is directly from NDP. That means there are 5.1 million PS3 out there, which is far larger than the combined total of ALL HD DVD players and drives. So much for your assesment of my math abilities, but this does call in question yours.
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All PS3's are internet ready. I will agree to that. But not ALL standalone BR players are internet able. So, on your face you are again WRONG. It must suck being knocked down at every turn. But I wait for your "magic" math to come back.
Well there are 5.1 million PS3 out there not counting standalones, and it still exceed the total worldwide sales of ALL HD DVD players and drives. So who is wrong?? And who knocked who down?
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It doesn't matter what the topic was. When you berate me for using a source with a phrase like:
I am sorry you don't understand the difference between quoting sales figures from from interested parties, and getting PQ quality information directly from the source.
Paidgeek has nothing to do with numbers. He knows about disc releases, features, and can accurately answer things regarding the PQ quality of Sony products. Because he has nothing to do with numbers, there is no need for him to spin anything.
A VP of marketing's job is to put lipstick on a pig. To spin things to make things look better than they are. Let's take this particular case for example.
She mentions that HD DVD standalone player sales are at 53-44% in HD DVD favor. You know what, in America she is correct. However if we were to look at software sales in the country they sit at 63-37% as of last week and 68-32% year to date. If Toshiba claims a higher attachment rate on their players, how is it possible that 44% of the players are commanding 63% of software sales? That would mean that the 53% only had 37% of the software sales, and that would entail less an attachment rate than Bluray owners. How does one explain this? Its called spin.
Also notice that she never mentions that her figures are based on sales in North America only. Since the battle is worldwide the picture gets alot more interesting. According to the last NDP figures, bluray players(all of them) are outselling HD DVD player(all of them) in Europe at a 4-1 pace. Bluray owns the whole pie in Australia as there is no significant presence of HD DVD there. In Japan bluray is outselling HD DVD players at a 94-6% ratio and software sales are at 97-3%. This is straight from NDP.
This is why nightflier is right. You don't listen to interested parties, they parcel and filter out information as to only suit their cause. The BDA is just as bad as Toshiba and the HD DVD PG.
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So what is it? You only use Sony sources when it is convienient for YOU?
I use Sony source when its appropriate. You don't use a Sony source to quote numbers to you. You are garanteed spin. However when it comes to issues such as PQ of the digital intermedary, why would you go somebody who has never seen the print? Can you understand the difference? Or maybe not...
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Or you only mean you dismiss others arguements when YOU don't like their source? Pretty convienent way to run a debate. Waffle on your own convictions to support your ill-logical and poorly worded arguments. Only to be supported by outdated, and information that contridicts your points (Oh sure the PS3 supports HD downloads....in New Zealand)
There is no waffle here. Go back to page one and read what I have said for 10 pages. You don't go to interested parties for sales quotes. I said that on page one, and now I am saying it on page ten. If you bothered to even read the whole thread, both Nightflier and I DO agree on this.
Definately the PS3 support downloads, and Sony is going to offer the service.
http://www.technewsworld.com/story/55856.html
Not only have I pointed out that the PS3 is capable of it, I have now shown you that Sony plans to offer it as well. Spin that if you may.
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I can't honestly counter the combo disc arguement, as like you my HD player is online. So it d/l any needed "fixes" on the fly. But I don't recall any online articles showcasing Toshiba as implementing any shoddy DRM measures, and then telling consumers to beg the HD-DVD player mfg to "support" them.
No, people were too busy waiting for their firmware disc, and Toshiba was too slow providing them to tell anyone anything.
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No mirror needed. I prefer MS, and apparently you prefer Sony. I think it's safe to say that both companies have warts on product performance. No fanboy hysteria needed to showcase either companies shortcomings.
Exactly what I have been trying to say since you jumped in with the spin. I prefer Bluray, not Sony.
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Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
Gee golly you must be right...I must have been the first person to ever personally attack someone here. Oh wait, nope...about 90% of this post is an attack on someone. Nightflier, SirT, and Myself were having a debate going back and forth, then along comes Wooch, Kex, and Youself.....do you contribute to the debate? Nope, instead you take out your personal feelings from something that I said before towards you or something else you didn't like that I said from another place in time and let out your feelings here. Now contribute to this topic or leave and quit wasting my time replying so that I can also get back on topic.
There you go...Passive/aggressive times 10.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Am I talking to an adult or a kid?. Kids wear tinfoil hats, not adults. Have you been reading nightflier comments about the ability of interested parties(such as Sony and Toshiba, the HD DVD PG and the BDA) taking accurate information(such as NDP sales numbers) and twisting them to their advantage? He does have a point, which is why I subscribe to NDP myself. I read the data straight from the page with no spin, no marketing filters. Its straight from the source. Now a fanboy would rather not read it for himself. They would rather take the spin from Toshiba, than read for themselves. It give them a false impression that their choice in formats is secure. I call it shifting sinking sand.
So to make the clear, you believe it is better to get your information through an interested party spin and all rather than reading it for yourself?.
Again, you amaze all with your tapdancing ablity. With the pro-BluRay slant your slinging, I guess you are not to be trusted either. You may read the data, but we can all be damn sure you are going to report what YOU think is important, to satisfy YOUR needs. And it's not that I NEED to read it myself. I sure as hell dont read every technical journal for every problem in my life. If I'm going to build a building, I don't go to architect school, I hire an architect. When I want to buy a car, I don't build my own plant, I buy it at the dealership. No sinking sand, just practicality.
How sad that you live in a world where you can't trust anyone. I hope you never get seriously ill. I hear doing your own surgery is a real *****.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Hedging your arguement now huh. You are completely missing the point to what exactly constitutes a stand alone player. Websters:
SELF-CONTAINED; especially : operating or capable of operating independently of a computer system <a stand-alone word processor>
Key words here "capable of operating independantly". Sorry, but the HD DVD add to the XBOX does not fall into that catagory, no matter how you try and force it with spin. As you can plain read, the definition does not speak of intended use by the end user, it speaks directly to the function of the player. You are attempted to blend purpose and function tegether much like you blend abiltiy to and is done. This is not about taking the blinders off, this is about knowing the difference between function and use.
And you're too dense to see the light. The only reason a person would purchase the HD-DVD addon is to WATCH MOVIES. So, it should be counted as a "movie player" because that's what it is. However, the PS3, is multifunction. So, as sold, you can't count it as a 1-1 MOVIE PLAYER. It skews the #'s. It's like trying to say every home in sold in the US is a "vacation home", even though only a small percentage of homeowners actually own a "vacation home".
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
You said yourself Unlike the dual-purpose PS3, where it is very difficult to determine the actual usage (either movie/game).
How do you apply a percentage to who does what, when it is difficult to determine how they are using it? This defies logical sense. [/QUOTE]
There has to be a percentage. It may be difficult to determine, but perhaps Sony needs to do some polling of owners. Or perhaps they are too afraid that the number is low, and would hurt them. I'll look for the actual article where the 20% was quoted.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
If microsoft was as committed to HD DVD as they say they are, then putting the drive in the game machine would cement that commitment. Otherwise it appears that Microsoft is using HD DVD as a platform to test out their VC-1 codec in the field and prepare it for downloading movies. After all, it was Bill Gates that said "movies on disc is dead". After all, it is the montra of the microsoft guys to compress the video more agressively( no opening up the bit budget) in VC-1. The only reason to compress agressively is to keep file sizes down, and the HD DVD format does not have to do that to that degree. Microsoft does have its hand deep in the downloading area, which is where agressive compression is most needed. I smell a rat....
Really? Is that what MS said? Do you have a link for that? Or are you just spouting out unsubstanciated FUD as you say? And that rat smell, its coming from your computer.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
I don't care about kids games. I care about the ability of the PS3 to play bluray movies, upscale my DVD's to 1080p, play CD and SACD(which it does extremely well) store music, and stream music, and be upgradeable. That is why I bought the PS3. How many games they have carries no interest for me. From what I have seen on Bluray.com, there are alot of folks that bought the PS3 for the same reasons.
Ok, well at least you profess your ignorance. And please don't quote anything from Bluray.com. Thats got to be a biased source, and Lord knows, we don't use those here. Least of all, you (at least for debating). Most folks on the game sites are pissed that Sony isn't making games for their GAME machine.
And you toss out the term "kids games" like the video game market is a passing fad. Unless the last time you played one was in your 30's when Pong came out, the market has grown a bit. In 2005, the US market alone was worth over $8.5 BILLION. World wide market is expected to grow to 46 BILLION by 2010.
Oh, heres a source for you. I hope its not too biased, its from Business Week, a well known rag for biased reporting:
http://www.businessweek.com/innovate...623_163211.htm
That figure is quite a bit higher than BluRay/HD-DVD sales combined. So, actually, I guess the HD market is a "kiddie" market compared to gaming.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Didn't forget how to read, you said that the PS3 couldn't do it at all, I showed that it can do it. Where it can do it doesn't matter that much, the product can handle the task.
The HD content on the 360 is 720p(far less information than 1080p) carries two channel stereo tracks(not even competitive with compressed 5.1), full of DRM, time limits, and has video so compressed that it is proned to visual artifacting that is clearly visible on large screen sets. I like quality, not compromised qualtity.
Oh, I see. Now region differences are irrelevent. Talk about "spin". You wail on the Toshiba rep for incomplete data, then to prove a point of yours, you provide a link "proving" your point, but neglect to add that its for the smallest PS3 market in the world, and will NEVER be available in the US. I'm sure that everyone in the US is thrilled to death that in 2008 (at earliest) New Zealand/Austrialia will be getting IPTV. After all, they (US consumers) plunked down $500-600 to see a much smaller market get cooler technology than we will see. Makes sense to me.
I gotta go get some dramamine, your spin is gonna make me puke!
And have you actually watched a HD movie on a 360 d/l? I'm guessing no. If you have, please share your experience. What movie was it, and when? What size TV? Connections? Or just another example of bloviation you tend to engage in? I have rented several, and watched on my 50" plasma. The DRM is seemless, never having caused an issue, as MS has vetted the procedure. Never having witnessed the artifacting myself, I would have to say that your "sources" are liars. Unless you can actually prove your baseless (again) arguements, I guess we can all discount your non-existant anecdotal "evidence". And pray tell, why IS the MS marketplace the #1 source for d/l of HD material ANYWHERE? If it's so bad, you'd think people would be running for the hills.
And as far as quality goes, it is quite good. The audio may not be lossless, but its good enough as a rental to help you decide if you want to spring for the actual disk. For $4.00 for a HD rental, its quite reasonable.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
That the article came from 2005 shows just how out of date your knowledge of the product is. Its not about the best you can do, its about pointing out that you are spreading pure uncut FUD. Even if it came from microfishe, it showed that you were indeed incorrect.
No, I'll help you out silly man. Here's an article from 2007:
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news...123_11611.html
Now it looks like KOREA may actually get the technology as well. Pretty good progress for Sony no? Announce the technology in 2005, and just get around to implementing it in 2007/8. Now thats PROGRESS! Sony is "working" on getting some sort of movie d/l service in the US, but I can't even find an article more recent that Feb. 07, that even discusses the "possiblity" of a movie d/l service.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
I already told you why they are wrong. This is HD DVD fanboy FUD. Here are your words once again.
Unlike the dual-purpose PS3, where it is very difficult to determine the actual usage (either movie/game).
You have used the words estimate, and very difficult to determine actual usage. That clearly means that it is impossible to put a number on it. The HD DVD group has to spin this into a number, so they can push the attachment rate argument, and de-emphasize the effect of the PS3. The problem is, you cannot ignore or marginalize a product because it falls outside of your product understanding. They(meaning the HD DVD group) believe that only standalone sales matter, the problem with that is a media center is the reason they are getting their collective butts kicked in software sales.
No more spin than Sony flogging the horse that every PS3 owner is some sort of rabid movie buyin' fool. And the difference is that there is no "integrated" HD-DVD console on the market. And if you want to talk about media center, don't forget to mention that the 360 is KILLING Sony in function in the "media center" arena. Sony fanboys drool at the content availible for MS users. Hell, there's over 350 movies about 20% HD, availiable RIGHT now. What do you have on PS store? Oh yeah, the Lair video....cool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Mine cost was $499, not $600.
Not my fault you are a tightwad. Shoulda sprung for the more expensive one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
I have the XA2, and the ethernet port is mandatory. However I have no connection near my equipment rack, and am not about to pay for one to support one player. So this mandated ethernet port is useless to me. When I purchased Children of men combo disc, it wouldn't play in my player. I had to wait nearly two months to get my firmware disc. And you want to complain about what a BR player doesn't have? At least those who own one get their disc in a much more timely fashion than HD DVD owners do. Another instance. Toshiba wanted to and 24fps playback to my player. It took two months for me to get my disc, 6 phone calls, and when it did came, it made my player so unstable that it could not play a singe HD DVD disc without the dialog getting out of sync. I was not alone on this because all it took was one trip to HD DVD land AVS.com and I found there were many folks experiencing what I had.
So now we are down to more anecdotal "evidence". You are going to have to better than your 1 sob story about the service Toshiba gave you. If you conduct yourself on the phone like you do here, its probably lucky you even got it when you did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
That ethernet hookup is useless unless people actually use it. And there is plenty of evidence that they are not. The long delays in getting discs to owners means that next to nobody is using these port which make them essentially useless. Ability and actual usage are a long way from each other.
Once again, nobody has taken any accurate survey of users with HD DVD players hooked up via their ethernet ports. So there are no hard numbers to mention. However given the long delays in getting firmware disc into the hands of player owners, one has only to believe that not many are hooked up.
You don't need data to support my statement that Toshiba is having trouble keeping up with firmware disc. I experienced it, not once, but three times. Their own customer service has said it, other owners have said it, so there are no need for numbers. It just takes one to come out of their cave, get around the net, and read(which has proven very difficult for a few here to do).
So now "There are no need for numbers". Wow, you certainly have come full circle tonight. First my numbers are suspect, and now you don't even need to offer them. Oh well, we all pulled out the cry rag and had a good sob after reading your tearjerker of a story. I hope it was cathardic, and makes you feel better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
No, I am not wrong. That last worldwide sales figures for ALL HD DVD players and drives sat at 650k. The last worldwide sale figures for all BR players including the PS3 was 5.5 million with 400k being standalones. This is directly from NDP. That means there are 5.1 million PS3 out there, which is far larger than the combined total of ALL HD DVD players and drives. So much for your assesment of my math abilities, but this does call in question yours.
We are arguing on opposide sides of the street. I am arguing %, and you are arguing sales #'s. More BluRay units sold? Perhaps. More HD-DVD players equipped to go online, absolutely (as a percentage 100% vs >100% BluRay)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
I am sorry you don't understand the difference between quoting sales figures from from interested parties, and getting PQ quality information directly from the source.
Paidgeek has nothing to do with numbers. He knows about disc releases, features, and can accurately answer things regarding the PQ quality of Sony products. Because he has nothing to do with numbers, there is no need for him to spin anything.
And its unfortunate you seem to think that only financial/sales figures can be spun. Talk about gullible... Are you actually suggesting that ONLY marketing talks about products in a positive note, and you will get the "straight dope" from anyone else in the company? Please, stop embarrasing yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
A VP of marketing's job is to put lipstick on a pig. To spin things to make things look better than they are. Let's take this particular case for example.
She mentions that HD DVD standalone player sales are at 53-44% in HD DVD favor. You know what, in America she is correct. However if we were to look at software sales in the country they sit at 63-37% as of last week and 68-32% year to date. If Toshiba claims a higher attachment rate on their players, how is it possible that 44% of the players are commanding 63% of software sales? That would mean that the 53% only had 37% of the software sales, and that would entail less an attachment rate than Bluray owners. How does one explain this? Its called spin.
How do you explain it then? Do it better, and back it up. What are your breakdown of units, and disk sales. You got the reports, break it out for us numbers man. "Un-Spin" it for the masses. We are dying to hear your results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
This is why nightflier is right. You don't listen to interested parties, they parcel and filter out information as to only suit their cause. The BDA is just as bad as Toshiba and the HD DVD PG.
I use Sony source when its appropriate. You don't use a Sony source to quote numbers to you. You are garanteed spin. However when it comes to issues such as PQ of the digital intermedary, why would you go somebody who has never seen the print? Can you understand the difference? Or maybe not....
Sure, I see the difference. But the fact remains, that it's not only fincancial/sales figures that can be spun. Remeber when PS3 was in development, Sony was flogging 100% BW compatibility? Ooops, turned out not to be true, but you can't unring that bell. MS engaged in plenty of spin as well, but frankly, not much involved money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Definately the PS3 support downloads, and Sony is going to offer the service.
http://www.technewsworld.com/story/55856.html
Not only have I pointed out that the PS3 is capable of it, I have now shown you that Sony plans to offer it as well. Spin that if you may.
Well, looks like you found something more current than 2005. Very nice. Sony has been talking up (spin) their "video d/l service" for well over a year. And guess what. Everyone is still waiting. Remeber how great the "free" online experience would be....and what do you get for free? NOTHING. The latest article mentioning the US movie d/l service was back in July 2007. Still promising it "soon".
As of now, MS has over 350 feature films for rent/ 20% are HD. Say what you want about it, but at least MS is delivering. Unlike one empty promise after another from Sony.
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Terrence, my little green knight, we can debate point for point forever it seems (and I have a response to everyone of your points, don't worry, but I'm trying to spare others the misery of having to read it all). So let's try to focus on what really seem to get your feather twisted. First an example:
Politics - You contend that political events or large catastrophes have no impact on the movie-consuming public. I say they do. So my position is that it could be anywhere in the vast spectrum of having just a tiny fraction of an impact to having a considerable impact. Yours is that they don't. Nope. Nada. Nay. Niet. Now we don't need to be an economists or statisticians to realize that your absolute position is infinitely less likely. As a matter of fact it is unsupportable. It is logically a very weak position to take.
So let's consider what we know about political events. We all know from numerous sources that the buying public was not the same after Sept 11th. That's not disputed. While they did continue to purchase non-durable goods and services, such as food, cosmetics, and "entertainment" in the form of movie rentals, CDs and DVDs; what they did not purchase as much was new technologies such as cars, stocks, and for our example, new HT technologies. This was expected by economists because many people were in what's referred to as "collective shock." The public needed diversions from the horrors of that reality, so they spent their money on diversionary products but they did not buy into products that implied some kind of risk. This is basic economic theory. Sales for durable products did eventually pick up again, and the economy eventually rebounded. Historically, this is pretty much how the buying public has reacted to significant world events for some time.
In light of our argument over this format war, this allows you to state that various formats did not die off. I never said they would, but your needle seems stuck on trying to demonstrate that I did. What I said is that these events had an impact. That's all. Nothing more. And I seriously doubt there are any economists who will disagree with me on that. We can debate about the degree to which the impact affected sales, but we both would be arguing about estimates and stats (and you don't like that). The fact is that all your counterpoints to the case that significant world events have an economic impact, are all assumptions, guesses and estimates. You can't say for sure that they haven't because it's not possible to include all factors in your dataset.
I then continued with the argument that even if the effect was small, it would be significant during this holiday season. That argument is important, but that's not what we are addressing in this post. So let's get back to your rigid absolutism.
It is really the crux of the problem as to why we can't meet half-way. You can't accept any argument that has uncertainties. Your obsession with controlling the parameters of every discussion is not only completely un-academic, but also completely unrealistic. Nature is not exact. Such absolutes only exist in a vacuum. You cannot control all aspects of an observed pool under study. No matter how many facts, figures, ratios, and official statistics you present, they are all estimates. Your inability to accept that or to see outside of that reality by itself diminishes any argument you put forth.
So you criticize my argument because I don't have exact facts and figures, but the reality is I don't need them. The recent upsurge in HDDVD sales, whatever it's true measure, is a perfect example of your inability to control all the parameters. At this point we dont't know, we can't know, if the pendulum is going to swing back to HDDVD's favor or not. The very reason there is an upswing in HDDVD's favor is evidence that your absolutism is flat out wrong. There are too many unknowns to make the statements that you have made about BR winning this war.
Another point is on the 2-1 ratio, which is, by the way, the largest number I have seen in favor of BR so far. Even so, it is still not great enough to call a winner. This is because we are talking about what I am estimating to be a less than 5% market segment of the whole movie industry. That makes BR about 3%. These are marginal numbers. You know it and I know it. That is why you have been so reluctant to tell us if the HD market really is 5%. Is it larger, 10%, 15%? That would still give BR only 7% of the whole industry. Is it even smaller? Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants!
All the other evidence you present from your inside sources to factory visits are all outside of the actual statistics. You do a great job of using them to support your figures, but they are only supportive in a circumstantial way and more importantly, they are inexact. They are not numbers, they are merely unmeasurable events that you have an opinion on. What is ironic, is that you keep telling me to provide numbers and that you won't accept anything else, and here you are using the same type of evidence that I have been giving to further your own argument. Isn't that quaint?
So here we are. You're basically telling people that if they are thinking about buying a format they should choose BR because of the evidence you have presented. My response is that they should wait it out because your evidence is incomplete. Now why are you so against waiting it out? I mean this is a real obsession for you. You want people to buy that BR player. You want HDDVD to go down in flames, preferably in some humbling way, I'm sure. The only reason I can think of for your obstinate fanboyism is that you have an interest in BR winning this race. When you wrote that you were working for a "Blu-Ray only" (your words) company, we all presumed that was the case, how could we not? Of course, now you've been back-peddling and saying that you work for a company that makes soundtracks for both BR and DVD (we didn't know that before, but I'll let that slide.) In any case, I still want to know why you are so dead set against people waiting to see who comes out ahead. I think you're not admitting the whole story about this and that you do have a financial stake in this, but I'll let you explain that one.
Face it, Terrence, the world is not exact. It cannot be measured with only mathematics. Anyone who claims otherwise has control issues. So what is this obsession of yours all about?
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Attn: Nightflier...
I think that you have handled this thread about as well as possible and I can understand that you are realizing that going toe-to-toe on every little issue is counter productive and it would seem that the original debate has become lost in the ruffles. One of the major issues with this site is that most of us refuse to lose, we like being right, we hate to be wrong, and when we firmly 'believe' something we are willing to do whatever it takes to make sure that we are heard or read. In most cases there is little way in really knowing who is right or who is wrong and even if you do prove Sir T wrong, we have already established that he won't admit to it or that he will simply come up with more diversions to keep things from being settled. I think that Sir T also makes good points and has some knowledge that we can all gain from, but what is upsetting to most, including myself, is that he presents himself in a very condescending and prideful way and doesn't give others the same respect when it comes to their opinions. For this reason, this particular thread has gone awry.
I for one, am certainly not a person that likes to back down, and I'll admit that I like to get involved in debates and antagonize just as much as anyone else around here, although some people have a stronger ability to avoid the conflict. Most of my conflict though has arose over certain people here posting things that were simply not true, or simply negative just for the sake of being negative and my 'attacks' back were most of the time warranted.
That's all I have to say for now...I hope that this place can still get along even if we do disagree at times.
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Well i have been reading the huge posts that you guys have been chucking at each other,i thought i would throw in my 2 cents, as i have been looking at jumping into a high def player.I have been researching my purchase and i may swing from BluRay into a combo player.I still think that Bluray will eventually win out but the recent swing of Paramount to HDDVD i think that will streach out a year or two,so i want to cover both bases.In my little corner of the world it seems that HDDVD is falling behind, the manager of the local Blockbuster reported to me that Bluray was out renting HDDVD by 4-1, and that is not an estimate, also the local Future Shop(our version of Best Buy) now seems to be only selling Bluray or combo players, no HDDVD not even on their web page.
bill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman1999
In my little corner of the world it seems that HDDVD is falling behind, the manager of the local Blockbuster reported to me that Bluray was out renting HDDVD by 4-1, and that is not an estimate, also the local Future Shop(our version of Best Buy) now seems to be only selling Bluray or combo players, no HDDVD not even on their web page.
bill
You are aware of course that Blockbuster doesn't rent HD-DVD in their physical stores anymore right? So your statement above carries about as much weight as suggesting that your local Porche dealer is selling WAY more new Porches as the Hundyi dealer down the road.
Netflix rents both formats, and a ratio of 4-1 had selected HD-DVD as their preferred "HD Format". You are only allowed to pick one, so it seems that more HD-DVD owners are allowing Netflix to send HD-DVD when available vs BluRay.
And MY local BB (Best Buy) has both formats in stock, as well as players. So it pretty much depends on where you are living I suppose.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
You are aware of course that Blockbuster doesn't rent HD-DVD in their physical stores anymore right? So your statement above carries about as much weight as suggesting that your local Porche dealer is selling WAY more new Porches as the Hundyi dealer down the road.
Netflix rents both formats, and a ratio of 4-1 had selected HD-DVD as their preferred "HD Format". You are only allowed to pick one, so it seems that more HD-DVD owners are allowing Netflix to send HD-DVD when available vs BluRay.
And MY local BB has both formats in stock, as well as players. So it pretty much depends on where you are living I suppose.
Uhhh, GB... my BB in Canada here does carry HD-DVD still, and Musicman's not that far from me...I would say it's possible?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
Uhhh, GB... my BB in Canada here does carry HD-DVD still, and Musicman's not that far from me...I would say it's possible?
I can't speak for the Canadian market, here in the US, BlockBuster has instituted a BluRay only policy in its retail stores. I suppose it's possible that some stores that had HD-DVD already in the stores, still rent their available selections.
So if Canada is different (and we all KNOW it is..:) ) I will stand corrected. But, here in the states, the analogy still stands.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
I can't speak for the Canadian market, here in the US, BlockBuster has instituted a BluRay only policy in its retail stores. I suppose it's possible that some stores that had HD-DVD already in the stores, still rent their available selections.
So if Canada is different (and we all KNOW it is..:) ) I will stand corrected. But, here in the states, the analogy still stands.
I do know that in Canada, Best Buy sells both, and Futureshop carries titles for both....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman1999
Well i have been reading the huge posts that you guys have been chucking at each other,i thought i would throw in my 2 cents, as i have been looking at jumping into a high def player.I have been researching my purchase and i may swing from BluRay into a combo player.I still think that Bluray will eventually win out but the recent swing of Paramount to HDDVD i think that will streach out a year or two,so i want to cover both bases.In my little corner of the world it seems that HDDVD is falling behind, the manager of the local Blockbuster reported to me that Bluray was out renting HDDVD by 4-1, and that is not an estimate, also the local Future Shop(our version of Best Buy) now seems to be only selling Bluray or combo players, no HDDVD not even on their web page.
bill
Combo player? whatcha looking at, that new LG? Looks pretty sweet but man is it pricey.
I may go neutral myself, but I'm gonna wait until the end of the year.
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[QUOTE=Groundbeef]You are aware of course that Blockbuster doesn't rent HD-DVD in their physical stores anymore right? So your statement above carries about as much weight as suggesting that your local Porche dealer is selling WAY more new Porches as the Hundyi dealer down the road.
Well my Blockbuster is, of course, one of the one's that does or my comment would make little sense.It stocks about an equal amount of both formats. I can't speak to Netflix.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.J.
Combo player? whatcha looking at, that new LG? Looks pretty sweet but man is it pricey.
I may go neutral myself, but I'm gonna wait until the end of the year.
Yes that was the one, saw it on sale for $720.00 on a one day sale ,but i was to slow.
bill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
I can't speak for the Canadian market, here in the US, BlockBuster has instituted a BluRay only policy in its retail stores. I suppose it's possible that some stores that had HD-DVD already in the stores, still rent their available selections.
So if Canada is different (and we all KNOW it is..:) ) I will stand corrected. But, here in the states, the analogy still stands.
Yes different and proud of it, that seems to be the case and they seem to be adding new releases for both although they have just increased the Bluray section size.
bill
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Update
Futureshop has now added HDDVD players back to their web site,next generation Toshiba
will be available next month.
bill
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Canadian prices?
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman1999
Update
Futureshop has now added HDDVD players back to their web site,next generation Toshiba
will be available next month.
bill
How do Canadian price compare with US sincd GWB has trashed the Greenback? Are we up here still being sucked dry by greedy distributors and retailers??
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Yes we still are, considering that a canadian dollar will buy you $1.02 US on Thursday. I checked Best Buy web sites and players like the Sony 300 is $499 US and $599 CDN and that seems to be the average.Canadian prices seem to be about 20% higher.Someone is making money and it's not us.
bill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman1999
Yes we still are, considering that a canadian dollar will buy you $1.02 US on Thursday. I checked Best Buy web sites and players like the Sony 300 is $499 US and $599 CDN and that seems to be the average.Canadian prices seem to be about 20% higher.Someone is making money and it's not us.
bill
I'ts been in the news lately that towns along the border are reporting sky high % of day visitors from Canada to the US. Canadian border town stores are like ghost towns if there is a US alternative within a reasonable driving distance.
BTW if you are looking for a childrens playhouse, I have one in my backyard for sale...
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I've always wanted to live in Canada, Ground Beef are you sure you wouldn't mind my family living in your back yard? Hope there's enough room for me to put my truck up on blocks when I need to. You all don't have anything against dogs do you? How many bedrooms that thing got?
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