Blu-ray player sales down since January.

[Groundbeef]

Unlike for example, someone's whose paycheck comes from the industry in question? I'm not disputing your points, it's just that you are as suspect as CNET re opinion on entertainment media.

Reviews are opinions by nature, I assume most people understand that.

My objection to Sony is both their arrogance and of course their criminal behavior. In the later case they installed malicious viruses on personal computers without anyone's permission, it took a sledgehammer to get the virus out (DRM for CD).

US law allows making copies of copyrighted material for personal use, Sony appears to answer to a higher power.

Let's not forget the independent movie critics, they forwarded favorable reviews of Sony pictures to local papers neglecting to mention the little detail that the reviewers were on Sony's payroll.

Wasn't it Columbia (Sony) who was issuing SACD titles that were simply Redbook files in a SACD format and pretending innocence when they were asked why anyone would pay $28.00 for a disk identical to ordinary CD as far as quality?

And a raft of anecdotal reports of Sony refusing to honor equipment warranties.

I have seen good BluRay (and HD DVD) it is quite special, most recordings are limited by things having nothing to do with the disk technology. I believe that was the point about little advantage.

Actually you can thank the US Congress/Senate for that debacle. You can STILL "copy" copywritten material.

The problem is with the new DRMA that makes it a crime to "break" the encryption to make a "copy".

So if you can figure out a way to make a copy of a copywritten work (That you legally own I must add) and do it without circumvention of the encryption you are home free. Easy no?

[ldgibson76]

Hello Everyone.

So far, the opinions that have been stated regarding the "what, why and how's" of Blu ray marketing and sales, all have some similence of credibility. I say "similence" because of the pereption/reality ratio!

I really do believe that there are some that live in a state of denial! (The 51st State!) There are actually folks out there that believe the economy is fine!
The disregard/denial of the current economic conditions sometimes borders on the criminal!
Let's not get it twisted "Sir T". The economy does and will continue to weigh heavily on blu ray's survival. Check that, it's ability to become the dominate force in home entertainment. And don't think for a second that that's not the BDA's ultimate goal!
Just in my area, within a 15 mile radius, there's 3 Best Buys (Super Stores). And they usually serve as a good barometer of how the market is faring. With my job, I'm able to visit each store at least once a week. Man, in the 7 years I've lived in Northern Delaware, I've never seen Best Buy(s) look so.....trying to use the right description without being dramatic "DEAD!" Now considering that this is the slowest time of the year for retailers, talking with the employees (manager's) I've become acquainted with, they, and I'm talking all three locations, say that this is the worst it's ever been. Sales are down across the board. Yes, the PS3 is still selling but not as well. The shelves are loaded with PS3's and let's not even mention standalone Bluray players. If they do have any on the shelves, it's the Sony S300 model, or a couple of out of box Sharp BD-HP20U models.
And the only reason they have the Sony is because it's the least expensive of the current models available. (That has change since. Prices have dropped. Now you have 5 players that are priced at $399. Sony's S300, PS3; Samsung's 1400/1500 (backordered); the Sharp 20). Was the price lowered to make room for the new models coming, or was it to try and stimulate sales?! We'll see if the price drop increases sales! Now, one can say that the decrease in overall sales is in part due to location and demographics. That could be the case in some markets, Northern Delaware for the most part, is considered an affluent area. But this economy is brutal right now and Blu ray for the majority is considered a luxury item.
Accentuating the positive is commendable. But as food, energy and services soar in price, buying and/or renting a luxury item becomes less of a priority.
By the way, Sir T, this post was not directed to you. It's just a response to all the posts submitted.
Hopefully, the BDA/Sony are paying attention to what's going on! Failure to do so will ultimately take Blu ray out of the mainstream and make it niche product.

An Addendum:
I recently purchase a "new in the box" leftover Samsung BD-P1200. Yes, I know! One of the most problematic Blu ray players out there, but guess what, It was priced at that magic number....$200.00! Plus, it addressed my concerns regarding standard dvd playback (HQV and all). And it's firmware updated! So it has played without issue, so far!
So what, it can't decode DTHD or DTSHD/MA. My system as of right know is not capable of the hi -res audio technology (HDMI v1.3), but my tv can accept a high def video signal and that's fine with me for now. I will upgrade when it's financially wise to do so. Like most of the real people out there who would like to, but have other priorities! And I really can't see how anyone would purchase Best Buy's "Newly Released" movies on Blu ray!
At an average of $30.00 a pop, I'll never buy movies from them! Can you say "Amazon!" Yeah, I know!
I'm late to the party!

Regards.
(My innate ability to state the obvious sometimes even surprises me)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Unlike for example, someone's whose paycheck comes from the industry in question? I'm not disputing your points, it's just that you are as suspect as CNET re opinion on entertainment media.

I do work in the film industry, but I was working there BEFORE anyone every heard of bluray. My paycheck comes whether there is a bluray or not. So any attempt to tie my opinion to bluray as a format is at best disengenous, and at it worse, a stretch.

Reviews are opinions by nature, I assume most people understand that.

This is not a review, it is an opinion piece. A highly inaccurate opinion piece with alot of omission, alot of twisting of the truth, but mostly blind biased hate.

My objection to Sony is both their arrogance and of course their criminal behavior. In the later case they installed malicious viruses on personal computers without anyone's permission, it took a sledgehammer to get the virus out (DRM for CD).

As I have said before, great, hate Sony. But Sony is no longer in control of the bluray format. That now belongs to the BDA, and Sony is just a voting member on the board. So, you would hit Sony up for this, yet turn a blind eye to Toshiba selling our sub secrets to Russia? Do you have Toshiba as well?

US law allows making copies of copyrighted material for personal use, Sony appears to answer to a higher power.

You are more than welcome to make a copy of a bluray disc if you can figure out how to do it without breaking BD+ and BD watermark. It is against the law to break encyption algorythms, but it is not against the law to copy a disc.

Let's not forget the independent movie critics, they forwarded favorable reviews of Sony pictures to local papers neglecting to mention the little detail that the reviewers were on Sony's payroll.

I got some news for ya Herman, all the studio used to do this. It was a great tool for creating a positive buzz for upcoming movies. Sony got caught, the other didn't, so now do you hate ALL of the studios now? They are all just as guilty as Sony in this practice.

Wasn't it Columbia (Sony) who was issuing SACD titles that were simply Redbook files in a SACD format and pretending innocence when they were asked why anyone would pay $28.00 for a disk identical to ordinary CD as far as quality?

As long as the files are encoded in DSD its officially a SACD. It would be the same principle as encoding tape to DSD. There is no rule that says a SACD has to be recorded in DSD, edited in DSD, to be presented in DSD to be a SACD. They can encode from a variety of sources including redbook(or an upsampled version of redbook), as long as the data stream is DSD.

Alot of record companies were releasing redbook CD with only 14bits of true data, do you hate them as well?

And a raft of anecdotal reports of Sony refusing to honor equipment warranties.

Pioneer, Toshiba, and Panasonic have all been accused of refusing to honor equipment warranties, do you hate them as well?

I have seen good BluRay (and HD DVD) it is quite special, most recordings are limited by things having nothing to do with the disk technology. I believe that was the point about little advantage.

You mean to tell me that you have seen all 527 bluray movies released??? This is the only way you can qualify the word "most" when you speak of bluray offering little advantage. I own 350+ bluray movies, and have quite frankly compared many of them against their DVD counterpart, and one would have to be blind as a bat, and deaf as a post to miss the visual and audio improvement of bluray over DVD.

[hermanv]

Sir T; I do wish I had both the time and the inclination to devote as much energy to making beautiful posts as you do. Still I don't recall using "hate", you seem to like to put words in others mouths.

In no particular order:
14 bit Redbook CDs were issued when the technology for 16 bits wasn't mature or affordable, at that time it was believed by even industry pundits that 16 bits was overkill. We now know better. The issue about SACD has to do with intent. You are right about the standard, but there's this lost concept called ethics. They charged double! I know few corporations can be trusted, I am not naive, but Sony does seem to concentrate more wrongful behavior under one corporate umbrella

Issuing a press release lauding your studios latest film is quite different from using a phony name and identifying yourself as an independent reviewer - again this goes to intent to deceive.

Warranty support does rise and fall in various corporations, I only note more vehemence and outrage against Sony on forums where these issues are often discussed.

About BluRay vs standard DVD, my point was that I can easily see differences in picture quality of standard DVD's, a better format by itself will not fix this. Garbage in garbage out.

[ldgibson76]

Sir T; I do wish I had both the time and the inclination to devote as much energy to making beautiful posts as you do. Still I don't recall using "hate", you seem to like to put words in others mouths.

When he get's on a roll, there's nothing that can stop him!

[Rich-n-Texas]

You ain't kiddin' mister!!!

[ldgibson76]

You ain't kiddin' mister!!!

I mean, we've seen "Sir T" let someone (Pix) have it for up to 2 pages of rebuttals and criticisms! on one topic!
That's OK "Sir T"! Defend your beloved industry to the death!
The BDA should bestow you "Knighthood!" OPEC should hire you to debate/promote their cause for world wide extortion!

Holla!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Hello Everyone.

So far, the opinions that have been stated regarding the "what, why and how's" of Blu ray marketing and sales, all have some similence of credibility.

I really do believe that there are some that live in a state of denial! (The 51st State!) There are actually folks out there that believe the economy is fine!
The disregard/denial of the current economic conditions sometimes borders on the criminal!
Let's not get it twisted "Sir T". The economy does and will continue to weigh heavily on blu ray's survival. Check that, it's ability to become the dominate force in home entertainment. And don't think for a second that that's not the BDA's ultimate goal!

Rather than just make statements, let's look at history. During the 1990-92 recession everyone thought that the sale of VHS recorders were going to majorly tank, and rentals were going to follow it down the tube. VHS ended up growing 10%+ both years, and rentals went through the roof. Car sales hit the skids, and air travel hit the skids, but folks kept buying home entertainment stuff, because it offered more value for your entertainment dollar. Could VHS sales and rental have been better if there was no recession? Probably, but who knows.

In the recession of 2002-03 folks thought that DVD player and disc sales would drop significantly. Instead it grew, and it grew faster during that period than it did 2000-01. Could sales have grown faster if there was no recession? Sure, but they certainly did not tank like everyone thought they would.

Can the current recession slow down bluray adoption? Yes it can. But I am sure the BDA is more worried about creating the huge infrastructure needed to support the bluray format in the future. Manufacturers are still not ramped up to meet demand for players. Replication is still gaining capacity, and another unexpected benefit of the bluray format is putting a little more pressure on current capacity, high definition music titles. Bluray is a worldwide format. In the US we are facing a recession. Canada is not, and neither is the European Union. Sales of players there are booming, and that is why quite frankly there are player shortages in this country. In spite of our current recession, bluray players are selling at five times the rate they were last year at this time. Sales probably could be better if the manufacturers could at least meet the demand they have right now.

Just in my area, within a 15 mile radius, there's 3 Best Buys (Super Stores). And they usually serve as a good barometer of how the market is faring. With my job, I'm able to visit each store at least once a week. Man, in the 7 years I've lived in Northern Delaware, I've never seen Best Buy(s) look so.....trying to use the right description without being dramatic "DEAD!" Now considering that this is the slowest time of the year for retailers, talking with the employees (manager's) I've become acquainted with, they, and I'm talking all three locations, say that this is the worst it's ever been. Sales are down across the board. Yes, the PS3 is still selling but not as well. The shelves are loaded with PS3's and let's not even mention standalone Bluray players. If they do have any on the shelves, it's the Sony S300 model, or a couple of out of box Sharp BD-HP20U models.

Since your opinion is based a snapshot of your local area, I can give you my rather different view. I live in the Bay Area, another very affluent area. We have two very large Best Buys and a Circuit city in my area. I went to the one in Emeryville on yesterday, and over the weekend. One of my best friends is manager of that store. I talk to him every time I go in and he is there. He says that overall business and foot traffic is down. However he also mentioned that bluray disc sales are extremely brisk, but he complained that player shortages are keeping player sales down. He said that they get their shipment of players on tuesday's, and by thursday they are completely sold out. This is especially true of the Sony S300 and the Samsung 1400. When I asked him about getting my hands on a Panny BD-50, he told me that the first shipment is already pre-sold out. He also stated that the PS3 and its accessories are selling like crazy. I saw they had none on the shelves.

I went to the Best buy in Richmond, no S300 and no 1400's. When I asked when they were getting a new shipment, they told me tuesday," but I better be here on tuesday to buy because they are usually gone by the weekend". When I walked by the bluray disc section within the DVD area, there were more people around the bluray rack than the combined total of people looking at DVD's in the entire section. No PS3 anywhere to be found, and no Wii either.

Circuit City, no S300 and just one 1400. The bluray disc rack looked like a hurricane went through it. Traffic looked just like any typical weekend.

Two affluent areas, two different perspective.

And the only reason they have the Sony is because it's the least expensive of the current models available. (That has change since. Prices have dropped. Now you have 5 players that are priced at $399. Sony's S300, PS3; Samsung's 1400/1500 (backordered); the Sharp 20). Was the price lowered to make room for the new models coming, or was it to try and stimulate sales?!

Since Walmart has stated that they are having player shortages, as well as Best Buy and Circuit city, they do not need cut player prices to stimulate demand. The demand is already there. Sales of players in Europe are doing exceptionally well, and that is part of why there are player shortages here. When you look at the larger picture(instead of your own personal snapshot) bluray is doing pretty well even considering the economic slowdown in the US.

We'll see if the price drop increases sales! Now, you can say that the decrease in overall sales is in part due to the location and demographics. I beg to differ. Northern Delaware is a very affluent area. But this economy is brutal right now and Blu ray for the majority is considered a luxury item.

The Bay Area is also an affluent region, and my experience here differs from your there, so it is a regional thing. Yes the economy is brutal, but it was equally as brutal(if not worse) in 2002-03 and DVD players and disc sales grew. If you looked at the trends back then, only the higher priced DVD players saw a sales slowdown. The lower priced DVD players sold like crazy, as people trended down their purchases, but not phased it out. The same thing is happening with bluray. The lower priced players are doing very well, and the higher priced models are seeing a slowdown(or lack of availability).

When you look at NDP sales from a year ago, bluray players sales are five times that of that period. When you look at disc sales last year, they are trending FAR ahead this year, hitting milestones of last year months earlier this year.

Accentuating the positive is commendable. But as food, energy and services soar in price, buying and/or renting a luxury item becomes less of a priority.

Your idea of a luxury item is far too small. A car is a luxury item. A trip to Europe is a luxury item. A bluray player is not considered a luxury item. Its not a necessity, but hardly a luxury item. That is like saying a DVD is a luxury item. I was not accentuating anything. I am just posting what I see, read, and hear. Our economy is doing bad, but Europe and Asia are not. Canada is also doing well. Bluray players sales at all price points are doing very well there. Here, the lower priced players are selling very well, even if there is a slowdown from the holiday season. Disc sales are doing exceptionally well from all accounts. If there is anything bad to say about bluray right now, it is shortages, not lack of sales.

By the way, Sir T, this post was not directed to you. It's just a response to all the posts submitted.
Hopefully, the BDA/Sony are paying attention to what's going on! Failure to do so will ultimately take Blu ray out of the mainstream and make it niche product.

Well, considering you have called my name specifically TWICE, this is pretty hard to believe. When one directs a response to all, they do not usually mention anyones name.

The BDA is paying attention to the economic news in the US. But they are also paying attention to very positive strength in sales in Japan and Europe. Bluray is a worldwide format, and its death and life is not dependant on just one region. I am not going to raise any red flag until the entire world is in a economic recession.

An Addendum:
I just purchase a "new in the box" leftover Samsung BD-P1200. Yes, I know! One of the most problematic Blu ray players out there, but guess what, It was priced at that magic number....$200.00! And it's firmware updated! So it has played without issue, so far!
So what, it can't decode DTHD or DTSHD/MA. My system as of right know is not capable of the audio technology (HDMI v1.3), but my tv can accept a high def video signal and that's fine with me for now. I will upgrade when it's financially wise to do so. Like most of the real people out there who would like to, but have other priorities! And I really don't see how Best Buy sells "any" Blu ray software/movies!
At an average of $30.00 a pop, I'll never buy movies from them! Can you say "Amazon!" Yeah, I know!
I'm late to the party!

Well, for all you argue against bluray, it didn't stop you from getting a player did it? And just like it didn't stop you, it ain't stoppin other folks either. If you are looking for a bluray bargain, you will find it.

You have taken several swipes at me, just like you have done in previous discussions on this issue. For as many scenarios you threw out there, not much turned into a reality. When I stated that Warner was going blu, you said they were going red, and you are pretty confident they would. They didn't. You mentioned a series of scenarios that would derail bluray adoption, so far none of them are playing out. You have this penchant of looking at what is happen in this country as a reflection of what is happening everywhere. That is not the way this works when the platform is worldwide. What's a problem in the US may not be a problem elsewhere. One of the reasons Toshiba threw in the towel was because bluray had such a overwhelming presence in both Europe and Japan. They were battling in one region, and losing their shirt in the process. There is really no rush to push the bluray format. We can clearly see that apparently DVD is not enough for consumers, or sales would not be falling 2% year after year. If it was not for the strong bluray sales this year, DVD sales would have fallen 4% this last quarter.

So if you asked me could the economy hurt bluray adoption? I would say no. Folks will do like they always have done during economic slowdowns, they will buy the cheapest players and buy disc. History has proven this time and time again. When the economy improves, then the sale of higher end players will pickup. There is no point in CE history that the consumer just stop buying electronics during a recession. They just bought the least expensive electronics until thing got better.

[Smokey]

Wow, so much divers opinions on blu ray subject.

Appreciate everybody response including Sit TT long posts. I get a hint that Sir TT working for industry and his defense of Blu ray have cause some to accuse him of being biased. I am not one of them , but 100% defense of Sony or BDA seem to have raised some eye brows

IMO it is only fair to hear other side of stories behind blu ray. The link hermanv provided seem to be more Sony basher than anything, but it shows Sony/BDA heavy handiness toward its product. Given that they have every right to protect their commodity, there is such a thing as being overprotective.

For example everybody thought that SACD and DVD-A would replace CD, but those behind hi-res formats including Sony got so overprotective (hi-res only in analog output) that consumers just ignore them and it failed.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T; I do wish I had both the time and the inclination to devote as much energy to making beautiful posts as you do. Still I don't recall using "hate", you seem to like to put words in others mouths.

I directed the hate comment to the article. And you do not have to state the word "hate" for the intention to be there.

In no particular order:
14 bit Redbook CDs were issued when the technology for 16 bits wasn't mature or affordable, at that time it was believed by even industry pundits that 16 bits was overkill.

The redbook standard has always had the format at 16bits. Affordable or not. It was never altered from 14bits, to the current 16bits, EVER! to fit a price point. The bottom line is the spec called for 16bit decimation, and the manufacturers were producing players that had substandard D/A conversion that had the equvilent of 14bits. Once again, did you hate all of the manufacturers for their sins as much as you hate Sony for theirs? The produced players that didn't make spec, and even had the nerve to paste a badge that said 16bit digital audio on the faceplate.

We now know better. The issue about SACD has to do with intent. You are right about the standard, but there's this lost concept called ethics.

How do you know what their intent was? You know what you THINK their intent was, but do your really think they are just trying to pull the wool over folks eyes when all they had to do was simple signal analysis to get to the truth. Could your hate of Sony make their intent always the worst? I think so.

They charged double! I know few corporations can be trusted, I am not naive, but Sony does seem to concentrate more wrongful behavior under one corporate umbrella

And Microsoft is any better? Toshiba better? How about Best Buy and Circuit City for mislabeling DTV? You have a double standard that makes everything Sony does twice as wrong as everyone else, even when they are doing exactly the same thing. You cannot speak of ethics in a biased fashion, it loses its credibility as being something that is actually good.

Issuing a press release lauding your studios latest film is quite different from using a phony name and identifying yourself as an independent reviewer - again this goes to intent to deceive.

All the studios did this at one time. Sony got busted. But it doesn't change the fact that all studio did it. Its disengenous to try and restate what was widely done by every studio as being particularly evil because Sony did it. Every studio has used phony names and publications to pump up the buzz of their films. If Sony is bad for doing it, then all are bad for doing it. Sony is not worse than the others, unless its now okay to have a double standard when it comes to judgements and perceptions against corporations.

Warranty support does rise and fall in various corporations, I only note more vehemence and outrage against Sony on forums where these issues are often discussed.

In other words you are noting what you want to see because you hate Sony, and turning a blind eye to the other corporations that do the same thing. I suppose you are taking the high road here? Sony is not the great evil corporation, some would give that label to Microsoft.

About BluRay vs standard DVD, my point was that I can easily see differences in picture quality of standard DVD's, a better format by itself will not fix this. Garbage in garbage out.

Actually it does. DVD has a far smaller pipeline than bluray. It is obvious you can acheive far better picture quality when you have to compress less, use less(or none) edge enhancement to sharpen the picture, you can devote more bits to the background, you do not need prefiltering, you have a wider color gamut, and far more lines of resolution Obviously these benefits do nothing to improve the picture quality

Herman, your double standard is pretty obvious here. You have a right to hate or dislike who(m)ever you choose. But if you are going to make ethics the basis of that arguement, it might be helpful if that ethics arguement wasn't plagued by a double standard arguement as well.

[ldgibson76]

Slow down "Cow Poke"!

I wasn't taking a swipe at you. I respect your explanation and perspective on the subject. Not once did I criticize you. And yes, I did refer to you twice in the post, but it wasn't an all out assault on "Sir T!"
I agree, two different markets, two different responses to market conditions.
"Sir T", recognize when you are actually receiving a compliment on your knowledge. Just because someone wants to debate you doesn't mean they are trying to discredit your opinion.
As far as what I consider a luxury item.....I bet if you asked the average person out there if Blu ray was considered a luxury item during these times, I'm pretty confident that the majority would agree with that observation. And how can you compare a CAR to a blu ray player! A car is a necessity in this country! A $50,000 car is a luxury item! One other thing, in 2002, the DVD was a completely established medium. No competition from other formats and the economic downturn was nowhere near the levels it is now. Were the fuel prices $4.00 a gallon in 2002?! Was the price of food increasing at the same time!?! Yes, 9/11 had a dramatic effect, but, nowhere close to what's happening now! Now, "Sir T" if you dispute that fact, then you are really out of touch with the current economic crisis.
Nothing wrong with you having your point of view. Were all entitled! But, the U.S. is the most important market on this planet. I'm sure that if Canada had the economic downturn the US has had, but the US economy was status quo, the BDA would be concerned, but not to the extent it is for the US. You can say the same for Europe and Asia! Granted, both are important markets, but the US is the where the success is truly measured!
I'm not trying to have a pissing match with you. I told you before, I concede when it comes to the format war. And yes, I purchased a blu ray player, on the cheap mind you. I refuse, like many refuse to spend $500.00 on one. Not to mention, that during the Christmas holidays, the Sony and the Samsung could be had for $299! Ever since HD DVD went defunct, the prices surged back up to $399 retail. And guess what, sales slowed down. So much has contributed to the slow down of the BDP's. Now, if the price had remained at the $299.00 price point, then I'm sure the demand for the players would be much higher. Why would the manufacturer's of these products have such a hard time producing these players?! You say the replication process is a difficult one. OK, I'll drink your kool aid, but if that is the cause, why has Sony been able to produce so many PS3's? Why, because of demand! If there was such a nationwide demand for standalone players, it's only academic that the manufacturer's would be putting these player's out with the quickness....firmware updates be damned! Supply and demand dictates pricing. With competition...$299! No compettion...$399+! And let's not go there about the needed updates! That alone was enough to slow down demand, PS3 not withstanding! "Sir T", I'm not against blu ray. I want it to succeed. It is the superior technology. I, like others on this website recognize what's going on and things are bordering on critical! Blu ray will survive and eventually become the force we believe it is. Timing is everything and we are in bad times right now!
And don't take this as if I'm labeling you as "out of touch". The views you have expressed regarding the economic conditions and how it has or hasn't effected Bluray's market penatration, IMO, is in fact questionable, and at the least, debatable. Sometimes you sound like "Dubya!"

You're still the man!
Peace!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I mean, we've seen "Sir T" let someone (Pix) have it for up to 2 pages of rebuttals and criticisms! on one topic!
That's OK "Sir T"! Defend your beloved industry to the death!
The BDA should bestow you "Knighthood!" OPEC should hire you to debate/promote their cause for world wide extortion!

Holla!

I find it rather curious that I can debate the issue, but you seem to have more energy to bash me on a personal basis. Why is that? Are you points that weak?

[Smokey]

When he get's on a roll, there's nothing that can stop him!

You seen nothing yet. You should have been here back in '01 where Sir TT and other heavy weights such as Doc Greene or Adam get into it. Sometimes they crash AR site

[Rich-n-Texas]

I find it rather curious that I can debate the issue, but you seem to have more energy to bash me on a personal basis. Why is that? Are you points that weak?

Whoa up there pardner! Have a seat. Loosen your collar. Light up wonna them Cuban stogies you got stashed away in your drawer there!

I think Mr. Gibson was speaking with tongue-in-cheek. Mr. Gibson, he goes by "Sir Talks-alot" but his real name is Mr. Clean. You know, the guy on the liquid cleanser bottle? Also, he's half Cuban, so you know how THAT goes.

<== Mr. T.

[ldgibson76]

I find it rather curious that I can debate the issue, but you seem to have more energy to bash me on a personal basis. Why is that? Are you points that weak?

Will you stop it! No one's bashing you! I have nothing but respect for you! Just because we differ in opinion doesn't mean I don't like you man!
You have interesting perspectives and it's very entertaining indulging in a little banter with you.
It's a real hoot when you go nuts on "Groundbeef" and "Pix".
Like I said, defend your industry with pride. State your opinion/viewpoint and then wave your victory flag

Holla!

[ldgibson76]

You seen nothing yet. You should have been here back in '01 where Sir TT and other heavy weights such as Doc Greene or Adam get into it. Sometimes they crash AR site

That's funny! I can imagine! He seems to be in a bad mood today. You think if I shoot him a few compliments he'll lighten up?! He's so sensitive lately!

Regards

[ldgibson76]

Whoa up there pardner! Have a seat. Loosen your collar. Light up wonna them Cuban stogies you got stashed away in your drawer there!

I think Mr. Gibson was speaking with tongue-in-cheek. Mr. Gibson, he goes by "Sir Talks-alot" but his real name is Mr. Clean. You know, the guy on the liquid cleanser bottle? Also, he's half Cuban, so you know how THAT goes.

<== Mr. T.

Yeah, he gets all "Tony Montana" on ya, in a "AudioReview Forums" kind of way!
"Say 'ello to my little OPINION!!!! "

"Sir T", we're only kidding with ya! If we didn't mess with you, then you would think sumthin's wrong! Go take a bubble bath with the stogie R-n-T so kindly suggested! It's a Tony Montana thing!
But your perspective about the market is still whacked! HA!

Peace!

[filecat13]

Let's face it: if we stopped buying products from companies with unethical practices, we wouldn't be able to shop anymore. Sure, some companies pi$$ us off more than others, but there's not a clean pair of underwear covering the a$$ of any major corporation.

The old saying caveat emptor is as true today as ever, and anyone who doesn't go into the marketplace with a critical eye is easy prey for the unscrupulous seller. Typical consumers don't care about such things and can usually only handle one or two specific incidences of consumer self-righteousness at a time. I use the term "self-righteousness" because consumers are generally just as unethical as the companies they decry.

So yeah, I don't buy soccer balls from manufacturers who use child slave labor, or baby toys from companies that use lead paint, or beef from companies that abuse animals before they kill them so I can eat 'em (I want unabused dead cows), but Jeez, I do want nice soccer balls for a cheap price, and shiny toys for under a dollar, and I love a nice, big steak, so I gotta buy something!

In the CE space, I don't care who makes a product, sells it, controls it, or profits from it nearly as much as I care about getting the best I can for the least amount of money. Of course, it has to be something I really want, too. At least I can control buying stuff I don't really care about--some people can't even do that.

With BluRay, I'm still waiting for the "must-have" moment, and it's just not going to come from the video side. When (if) BluRay audio discs hit my sweet spot (best sound for the least amount of money), then I'll buy from whomever I want who has the most compelling product. And I'll still be getting most of my video and once-watched movies off iTunes or another service and not wasting money on once-watched BluRay discs.

OTOH, if one of my watch-it-once-a-month movies comes along in a must-have HD version, who knows? If I already have a player, I might bite.

[ldgibson76]

No response from "Sir T"! He must be pissed!, or finally having a life! "Sir T", If you are pissed, don't be. We have nothin' but love for ya!

[Rich-n-Texas]

Dude, why are you mixing in praise with insults? "Finally having a life"? Huh?

[Mr Peabody]

A couple thoughts as I am getting caught up on today's additions;

Filecat and Sir T have a point that Sony isn't the only crooks behind a corporation but "because everyone else does it" don't justify Sony doing the same thing. We didn't accept that excuse from our kids and I sure ain't going to accept it from businessmen who should have some semblence of honor. Has Capitalism become to mean screw them before they screw me?

Pix, I have a newsflash for you, Sony is not immune to defective products. My Sony 975 DVD player had to go back because it went bad before my 30 day return was up. My Sony 30" Wega HDTV went bad just after the factory warranty went out, if I hadn't bought the extended warranty that TV would have been a boat anchor instead of the object of my kids abuse. Knock on wood, I have not had any issue with a Toshiba product. I also have had Sony products that gave me long years of service without fault. Every company is bound to get a bad batch of chips or a robot assembler who smoked Crack at lunch that will flub up a run of product. It's how the company deals with it that matters most.

Also ldgibson hinted that DVD playback was important in a BR player, or was that further justification for buying a flipping BR machine, I vote the former as I take what I can get. In my mind there's 3 of us now. Sir T, my grassroots movement is growing, soon the BDA will have to listen.

[ldgibson76]

Dude, why are you mixing in praise with insults? "Finally having a life"? Huh?

OK! You're right! My bad! I retract the "having a life" comment.

"Sir T", I apologize.

And your perspective is not "whacked!" "Unique" is more appropriate description.

Regards.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Slow down "Cow Poke"!

My name is Sir Talks alot mister

I wasn't taking a swipe at you. I respect your explanation and perspective on the subject. Not once did I criticize you. And yes, I did refer to you twice in the post, but it wasn't an all out assault on "Sir T!"

You confuse me. On one hand you say this was not directed towards me, then you go all "twisted" on me and mention my name. This make me go plum loco

I agree, two different markets, two different responses to market conditions.
"Sir T", recognize when you are actually receiving a compliment on your knowledge. Just because someone wants to debate you doesn't mean they are trying to discredit your opinion.

It would be helpful if I knew I was actually receiving a compliment. Didn't know I was.

As far as what I consider a luxury item.....I bet if you asked the average person out there if Blu ray was considered a luxury item during these times, I'm pretty confident that the majority would agree with that observation.

I am sure someone said this about DVD players in the last recession we had. We you look at the facts closely, a $300-500 dollar purchase is nothing next to a $4000 vacation, or a $25,000 car. Its these kinds of things that get hit during recessions, not bluray or DVD players. Consumer tend to buy MORE of these during recessions because a trip to the movie theater is cost prohibative for a family of 5. I went to see Iron Man on Saturday. Ticket to get in at the matinee, $6. The cost of one large popcorn and soda, $9.50. Add that times five and you can get two or three blurays for that price. Plus you have to spend money for gas AND parking. If you do not go to the matinee then the price is $12.50 times five, the parking, gas, and the popcorn and soda. I could buy 6 blurays at the cost of a single evening at the movies. Folks do not give up home entertainment, they give up vacations, car purchases and large ticket items. History has proven this.

And how can you compare a CAR to a blu ray player! A car is a necessity in this country!

In New York City, San Francisco, Chicago most folks in the city do not own cars. Public transit makes cars a luxury. I have alot of friends who live in the suburbs in the east bay, they do not own cars, they take bart or bus everywhere. Cars are not required to exist. People who do not own cars do not have lives that suddenly come to an end.

A $50,000 car is a luxury item! One other thing, in 2002, the DVD was a completely established medium. No competition from other formats and the economic downturn was nowhere near the levels it is now.

Bluray has no competition from other formats, its competition threw in the towel. VOD and downloading is not bluray's competition. The folks that support this do not buy or collect movies, and are not looking for quality. They are looking for convience. As far as the economy not being worse than it is now, most economic analyst would disagree. We have an unemployement rate of over 7% back then, its around 5.5% now. Unemployement was so bad, they upped the amount of unemployment payments here in Cali, and they extended the time. We lost about 60% of our manufacturering base to layoff in the midwest, something we have never recovered from. So many folks were unemployed so long they stopped looking, or took two or three lower paying jobs to make ends meet. Many would argue that 2002-03 was far worse than what we are seeing now.

Were the fuel prices $4.00 a gallon in 2002?! Was the price of food increasing at the same time!?! Yes, 9/11 had a dramatic effect, but, nowhere close to what's happening now! Now, "Sir T" if you dispute that fact, then you are really out of touch with the current economic crisis.

To say 9/11 had a just a dramatic effect is the understatement of this century. The travel industry, hotels, and the tourist trade in this country was decimated for years. How bad it is now compared to back then is a matter of perspective. Going on just the facts and figures, nobody can say what is happening today is worse. We have not seen anywhere near the amount of layoffs we saw during the last recession. The only sector really getting hit hard is the financial sector. Yes gas and food prices are getting higher, but you have just made my point. People buy more home entertainment stuff during times like this so they do not have to pay for the high cost of gas and high entertainment cost just to have a decent evening. They just pop a bluray disc in a player, make their own popcorn and drinks, and bam you have an evening. This is the way it has been through every recession as far as I can remember. Back in 2002-03, Disney saw a 65% drop in business at their theme parks. Just today on our website I saw that revenue is up 53% at our theme parks. Disney revenue for DVD's and blurays is also up in the first quarter of this year, yes right in the middle of a recession.

Nothing wrong with you having your point of view. Were all entitled! But, the U.S. is the most important market on this planet. I'm sure that if Canada had the economic downturn the US has had, but the US economy was status quo, the BDA would be concerned, but not to the extent it is for the US.

Sorry, but the US is no longer the most important market on this planet. Right now that goes to China and Europe. Did you know that Europe will pass the US in overall bluray disc sales by summer? Ya probably didn't. Did you know they have sold far more standalone bluray players in Europe than in the US? Ya probably didn't. Did you know they have sold almost as many PS3 in Japan as they have in all of the US? Ya probably didn't. For the bluray format, Europe is probably the most important market right now. They will be the first to experience movie and television downloads via the PS3, not us. The US follows them, and Japan is not all that far behind us. In the US demand for players is outstripping supply, so until the BDA can catch up, I am sure they are not all that worried, UNLESS this recession last longer than the last.

You can say the same for Europe and Asia! Granted, both are important markets, but the US is the where the success is truly measured!

Not anymore my friend. Multinational companies look at the world, not just one region. Its our arrogance that makes us believe that we are the $hit. But the places flush with money(the middle east) go to Europe to buy their major goods, and the combined GNP of the European Union is larger than the US. They have 30% of the worlds GDP! With 500 million people, they are a much bigger market than the US.

I'm not trying to have a pissing match with you. I told you before, I concede when it comes to the format war. And yes, I purchased a blu ray player, on the cheap mind you. I refuse, like many refuse to spend $500.00 on one. Not to mention, that during the Christmas holidays, the Sony and the Samsung could be had for $299!

Didn't you find out that you do not have to spend $500 dollar to get a bluray player? If you did, other can(or did) too. Again you have made a point of mine. This report that bluray player sales are down 40% is based on sales of players during the holidays when bogo and player discounts were abundant. This also happens every year with DVD players, televisions, and various other consumer electronics. When the sales disappear, and folks have to start paying back debt, the CE industry goes into a sales doldrum. It happens every year from January to perhaps June or July. Then it picks up again in the 3rd and 4th quarters. When you combine that with the FACT that there are player shortages everywhere, anyone can see this THIS particular framing of the sales drop of bluray players is quite disengenous. Its not because they are too expensive, its not that they are crap, and its not DRM that is hurting sales. Its just a typical post holiday cycle that happens every year.

Ever since HD DVD went defunct, the prices surged back up to $399 retail.

Holiday discounts are not regular bluray pricing. The average pre holiday price for players was $399. The players were discounted during the holidays. After the holidays the prices returned back to the pre holiday average levels. The prices have not surged, get your fact straight.

And guess what, sales slowed down.

The price is not why sales slowed down, you do not know your facts here.

So much has contributed to the slow down of the BDP's. Now, if the price had remained at the $299.00 price point, then I'm sure the demand for the players would be much higher.

You do not know this for a fact, so this is just speculation. You got your player for far less than $299 didn't you? There are players out there for less than $299 aren't they? Amazon is offering the BDP 1400 for $270. You can find the S300 for around $299 right now. Your BS'ing here, no offense.

Why would the manufacturer's of these products have such a hard time producing these players?! You say the replication process is a difficult one. OK, I'll drink your kool aid, but if that is the cause, why has Sony been able to produce so many PS3's?

A. Because this is not built around the DVD like HD DVD was. This requires new tooling from the ground up, new chipsets, new workflow processes, different parts all of which manufacturer has to be brought up to capacity. Currently manufacturing is moving around, and is not quite settled. Sigma(the chip company most bluray manufacturers use) has to make custom designes for each manufacturer, create the tooling to make the chips, and build the factories as well. Nobody expected bluray sales to go from 80 to 200mph in a single month, but it did.

The PS3 is not built like a standalone. It uses the Cell processor, the standalones use SOC. The design and manufacturing of the PS3 was created from existing manufacturing lines that Sony has previously set up a long time ago. Mostly all of early production of blu lasers went to the PS3, which effectively knocked back the standalones manufacturing process. Getting chipset manufacturing up to speed is part of the standalones problem. Making a bluray player is NOT like making a DVD player. They are much more complex. Sony has plenty of experience making game machines, so putting the PS3 together is much easier to Sony than putting together a standalone player based around SOC solutions.

Why, because of demand! If there was such a nationwide demand for standalone players, it's only academic that the manufacturer's would be putting these player's out with the quickness....firmware updates be damned!

You cannot say this setting in your house, and having never made a player in your life. Too many armchair quarterbacks have no idea of the complexity of putting together a parts and manufacture chain for a brand new product. You also cannot take such a cavalier attitude about firmware upgrades. The manufacturers would rather not do it, because there is the chance the end user can brick the player if they do not know what they are doing. Your assumptions of simplicity are out of scale with reality.

Supply and demand dictates pricing. With competition...$299! No compettion...$399+!

Your are spinning and twisting reality based on your own ignorance. You forgot the demand drives UP pricing. Look at oil. Look what happened to Toshiba when they had competition. The artificially drove prices down, and it cost them nearly $1 billion in losses. Look at what is happening with Plasma. The cost is being driven down by cutthroat sales practices, and now the major players are shifting the manufacture to lesser companies to offset the pushed down prices. There is no competition now, and you can still find players for $299. More bull.

And let's not go there about the needed updates! That alone was enough to slow down demand, PS3 not withstanding! [/quote]

Demand has not slowed down, it accelerated. Get your facts straight.

"Sir T", I'm not against blu ray. I want it to succeed. It is the superior technology. I, like others on this website recognize what's going on and things are bordering on critical!

This is the most ignorant gloom and doom FUD I have seen post format war. Things are not that critical. You and most of the folks here that are nothing more the doomers and gloomers do not have all the facts. You did not have all the facts when you predicted that Warner would switch to HD DVD only. If you look at the facts and figures, you will see how foolishly off your so called "recognition" really is. You have stated that pricing has slowed down sales. There is no evidence whatsoever to support this notion at all. It just what you THINK.

Blu ray will survive and eventually become the force we believe it is. Timing is everything and we are in bad times right now!

We are just one region. There are other regions around the world that are not in the economic condition we are. We do not make or break formats anymore. We are not the end all. Timing is not everything. There is no damn urgency that says that bluray has to succeed by tomorrow. It took years for VHS to establish itself, even after Beta exited the consumer market. It took years before DVD really took off. Why does it have to take bluray 2 minutes and 50 seconds or they are doomed? This is crap, and it doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

And don't take this as if I'm labeling you as "out of touch". The views you have expressed regarding the economic conditions and how it has or hasn't effected Bluray's market penatration, IMO, is in fact questionable, and at the least, debatable. Sometimes you sound like "Dubya!"

You're still the man!
Peace!

Everyone has felt the economic pinch in different ways. The ultra rich do not feel it at all. Some folks feel it alot. I am much more in the middle on this. I look back at all the recessions we have had in my lifetime, and the scenarios you have set just do not materialize in the way you state it. This is not a depression, this in historical perspective is a mild recession. We are not seeing the layoff numbers we saw in 2002-03, we are not even close. We have not seen the stock market drop at the volume we saw in 2002-03. Our GDP number are not in the red like they were in 2002-03. The world is not in a recession like it was back in 2002-03. Things would have to get ALOT worse to be compared with 2002-03. How soon we forget. People can still find jobs, there were no jobs in 2002-03. You can still purchase a house, back then nobody had a job, so they couldn't purchase anything. What you are doing is crying wolf, and the wolf is not even close to the hen house yet. Thing are bad, but they are not quite as bad as the doom and gloom you are attempting to paint here. Some regions of this country are getting hit harder than others. While I do see food and gas going up(we pay some of the highest gas prices in the country only eclipsed by Hawaii), I do not see the volumes of people in the streets like I did in 2002-03. Here in the Bay Area we are not seeing thousands and thousand getting layed off in a single swipe like we did in 2002-03. People here are working, but their dollars are getting pulled thin by inflation.

If you think my perspective on bluray market penetration not being affected, find information that proves me wrong. Because I am looking at worldwide sales through NDP, and I don't see the same negatives you see and you do not even have the information I have. What is slowing market penetration here in the states is player availability, not price, and not bad economic times. Everywhere else bluray is doing gangbusters. When you balance this out on a worldwide basis(which is in context for this platform) it all balances to show format growth, not lack thereof You outlook is overly bleak because you are only looking at the states as a gage. Your world is too small to accurately gage market penetraition of a worldwide format. And you comments that the US is the gage of everything, is just plain arrogant and inaccurate. That is out of touch thinking!

[ldgibson76]

Dude, why are you mixing in praise with insults? "Finally having a life"? Huh?

Yo Rich!

I hope you were kidding with this inquiry. Do you realize whom your defending! This guy can deliver insults like "Don Rickles!" And has! And my little jabs are in question!?!

Now that I think about it, my little jabs at "Sir T" were harmless at best! If you consider "having a life" as cruel and unusual, then this forum must be of a kinder, gentler nature, effective earlier today! I didn't call him an idiot, or a liar, or moron, or stupid, or ghetto, redneck or any of the other "compliments" he's doled out in the past. And the fact that I do recognize and often mention his knowledge and admire his perspective and opinions about the industry, especially when we're having a debate, should be acknowledged!

Take care, and BTW, how's the 3800 treating you!?!

Regards

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

OK! You're right! My bad! I retract the "having a life" comment.

"Sir T", I apologize.

And your perspective is not "whacked!" "Unique" is more appropriate description.

Regards.

I do not think even unique is accurate. The folks that have access to the same information that I do, have the same conclusions I do. I would call myself informed and education in my field

I rather like my life.