Black Friday TV deals?

[nightflier]

It looks like there's not much to stand in line (and possibly in the rain) for this year. But I did see that Costco is offering $300 off a 52" Sharp 1080p LCD, but of course, the ad doesn't mention the model number (http://downloads.bfads.net/BFAds-Costco-2008.pdf). Anyone know the model number?

I'm really leaning towards Plasma, howver, but there's not a lot of 1080p options out there. Any recommendations?

Maybe I'll just sleep in on Friday. I sure could use the rest....

[blackraven]

If your leaning towards plasma, you have to go with a Panasonic, they have great pictures and are cheaper than LCD's for the most part. I've got the Sony 52" LCD XBR which is a wonderful TV. Excellent picture and sound. The Samsung LCD's are just as good but have a more reflective screen than the Sony's, but not as reflective as Plasma's. One thing to note is that most plasma TV's and the Samsung LCD's have better standard definition pictures than other brands.

If you are going to put the TV in a bright room, then go with a Sony LCD. If its going to be in a darker room then a Samsung LCD or a Plasma will do.

My next TV will be a 52" Panasonic Plasma for my bedroom.

[nightflier]

You mean a 50" Plasma. I don't think they make 52" sizes.

Speaking of that, the Costco advertised sharp does have those extra 2" over the Panasonics. Since they're about the same price (with the black Friday coupon), that's an extra star in the LCD corner.

But I really want to find out what the specs are on that LCD at Costco because 1080p is only part of the picture. What about 24fps/120Hz? Also how good does it handle motion blur and pixelation? And most importantly, as you pointed out, is how good will a standard DVD (or upconverted one) look on it?

Anyone know the model number? Is it another one of those Costco-only models? If so, what actual model number does it compare to?

[blackraven]

Yep, 50" plasma and 52" LCD. I would much rather have the better picture of the Panny over the Sharp. I have not been impressed with sharp's.

Consumer reports rates how well HD TV's do with STD def pictures and Panny Plasma's and Samsung LCD TV's are always top rated. But you must take this with a grain of salt. STD def pics on these TV's still look a little fuzzy and dont compare to CRT's. Even my Sony XBR4 LCD which was supposed to give an above average STD def pic, looks like crap on STD def. (and I'm using digital comcast signals) When they rate the TV's STD def pic its against other HDTV's.

[Rich-n-Texas]

...Maybe I'll just sleep in on Friday. I sure could use the rest....

No doubt, the way you run your mouth!

My niece just told me she'll be in line at Wal-mart early AM Friday for a 40" Visio (she isn't sure if it's a plasma or LCD) HDTV that she mentioned was on sale for $388.00 IIRC. Check your local store for details...

[blackraven]

:

My niece just told me she'll be in line at Wal-mart early AM Friday for a 40" Visio (she isn't sure if it's a plasma or LCD) HDTV that she mentioned was on sale for $388.00 IIRC. Check your local store for details...

Tell her to pick up the Sony BDP 350 Blu-Ray player they have on sale for $179.

[Rich-n-Texas]

If the financial picture looked better I'd buy it for her for Christmas. Thanks blackraven (I've got some great ammo now ), I'll bring it up.

[Woochifer]

Plenty of deals out there, but not very many on 1080p plasmas since those are the most in-demand models. The 42" 1080p Panasonics are dealing at $900, but that was already the price point at Costco beforehand. (BTW, if you want to know the model numbers of the Costco sets, try their website) These deals also generally exclude 120 Hz LCDs.

[RoadRunner6]

Consumer reports rates how well HD TV's do with STD def pictures and Panny Plasma's and Samsung LCD TV's are always top rated. But you must take this with a grain of salt. STD def pics on these TV's still look a little fuzzy and dont compare to CRT's.When they rate the TV's STD def pic its against other HDTV's.

Blackraven, in my experience with my new Costco 50" Panny plasma (a 768p which I just replaced today with the 1080p model) I have to disagree. We had two 27" Sony CRT's which we sold in the last year. I am so impressed with the SDTV picture quality of this Panny plasma, actually better to my eyes than both of the Sony's. I'm just starting to break-in the 1080p. I have it on a SDTV channel as I type this and it looks great, even though it is on "cinema' mode with the settings turned way down.

RR6

[blackraven]

RR your lucky with that TV, because if your search the net and talk to salesmen and visit the small Mom and Pop shops and see HDTV's with STD def you will see just how poor it is compared to CRT's.
It may be you have a better picture because its a plasma with 768p and not 1080p.

If I can find the back issue of CR where they talk about it, I will post it.

[RoadRunner6]

BR, you specifically mentioned Panny in your comments. I have had two Sony CRT's that I had owned for a number of years. Both the 768p and now the 1080p Panny (I have only had it on now for about 5 hours) are better than both of the Sony's. This has been in the same 7 year old condo with high quality cable feed. I have read the same comment in reviews of quality plasma's. These comments are directed mainly to quality brand plasma's and is another reason not to buy el cheapo sets which specifically usually have very disappointing PQ on SDTV. I suspect perhaps you have not seen a quality plasma hooked up properly to a incoming quality SDTV signal. I don't trust any PQ I see in any store unless I know for sure that they have an excellent TV signal. This is very seldom the case in my experience. In my area there is a Video Only that has a TV signal lead from a rooftop antenna that produces some excellent program quality. The actual PQ at our local Costco which is an in house digital feed is rather unimpressive. I bought these sets specifically based on pro reviews and owner reviews on the comparable Panny retail models. I have watched some SDTV broadcasts from about 10-15 feet in our room that sometimes I would swear are HDTV, the signal and PQ is that good. I am not exagerating here. I emphasize this here because we still have lots of SDTV to go for some years. This is a big selling point to me for these Panny plasma's.

RR6

[pixelthis]

BR, you specifically mentioned Panny in your comments. I have had two Sony CRT's that I had owned for a number of years. Both the 768p and now the 1080p Panny (I have only had it on now for about 5 hours) are better than both of the Sony's. This has been in the same 7 year old condo with high quality cable feed. I have read the same comment in reviews of quality plasma's. These comments are directed mainly to quality brand plasma's and is another reason not to buy el cheapo sets which specifically usually have very disappointing PQ on SDTV. I suspect perhaps you have not seen a quality plasma hooked up properly to a incoming quality SDTV signal. I don't trust any PQ I see in any store unless I know for sure that they have an excellent TV signal. This is very seldom the case in my experience. In my area there is a Video Only that has a TV signal lead from a rooftop antenna that produces some excellent program quality. The actual PQ at our local Costco which is an in house digital feed is rather unimpressive. I bought these sets specifically based on pro reviews and owner reviews on the comparable Panny retail models. I have watched some SDTV broadcasts from about 10-15 feet in our room that sometimes I would swear are HDTV, the signal and PQ is that good. I am not exagerating here. I emphasize this here because we still have lots of SDTV to go for some years. This is a big selling point to me for these Panny plasma's.

RR6

NO, its not.
How long have you had HDTV?
Ihave had it when the only thing you could watch on it was 480p DVD.
And trust me, SD performance is of no consequence whatsoever.
Because, next to HD, SD is gonna look like crap no matter what
you do to it.
TV has, for the most part, been filmed in HD since forever.
Thats because film was what was used, which is naturally HD.
so IF a channel is "hd" you will get a better pic, even with 480p
material than you would with 480i.
Most stations now are HD,I disagree with your notion that there is a lot of SD material out there, because SD material isnt worth watching
after you have watched hd for any lenght of time.
I tried to watch Back to the future III in SD the other day, couldnt do it,
it looked like crap, even with my sets very good upconversion.
The emphasis should be getting all channels converted over to HD,
sdtv is dead.
I remember when we went over to a neighbors and I got to watch a color TV set for the first good lenght of time, it was heaven.
Going back to our B&W set was really bad.
No one talked about how good a color set handled B&W, no need because they knew that B&W was crap(except for a few classics)
I hear this on discussions of Blu ray, how well do they upconvert?
How good does a DVD look on one?
WHO CARES? The best DVD or SDTV looks like crap, pale,
washed out uninteresting crap.
Is your favorite station still in SD?
Dont worry, market forces will soon take care of that.

Back on topic, do you think you could live with a 32" set for 389$
if it had the name Emerson on the front?

[nightflier]

I went back to Costco. That Sharp 52" model number is LCC5255U (item #52055), which looks to be a Costco model number. It's selling for $1699.99 - $300 coupon (if they have enough to last by the time I get my turn). It says on the box it's 1080p, but nothing about 120Hz. Does anyone know if it does 120Hz?

BTW, I've been thinking a lot about SD picture quality. If I add a decent upconverting DVD player ('been looking at Panasonic, NAD & Cambridge), then the only SD I'll be watching is upconverted. I know it's not the same as true HD, but if the player does a decent job, then that will be a minor issue. As for TV, I've already deleted all the SD channels from the memory of my Samsung HD OTA tuner, so if the TV has a similar OTA tuner, then that's all I'll be watching. Besides, I'm guessing that after February most OTA-broadcasting stations will make an effort to improve picture quality to keep viewers.

Still that doesn't change how well a TV handles motion, diagonal lines, and pixelation, the three most irritating issues with LCD. When I view an LCD screen I feel like the image is flickering. Plasma has a similar effect, but less so. The edges on plasma look better it seems to have less pixelation.

What scares me about Plasma is the shipping. Mail order is pretty much out of the question, so I need to buy locally and with a good warranty, like they offer at Costco (and to a lesser extent CC/BB). Fortunately there's enough stores here in SoCal, but it's still a matter of actually getting one. Many stores have just a few and tomorrow most of those will be sold.

Anyhow, LCD is still an option, especially at that price. If anyone can give me some specs on that 52" Sharp at Costco, that would help.

One more question, is there a "dynamic contrast ratio" I should be shooting for? Some are like 30K:1 while others are as low as 1600:1. Does this even matter? Some also mention speed in ms. I know this is an issue when purchasing monitors for our graphic design staff at work, but does it really matter with a TV?

Thanks, in advance for all the info.

[Woochifer]

I went back to Costco. That Sharp 52" model number is LCC5255U (item #52055), which looks to be a Costco model number. It's selling for $1699.99 - $300 coupon (if they have enough to last by the time I get my turn). It says on the box it's 1080p, but nothing about 120Hz. Does anyone know if it does 120Hz?

Check to see if that set is even 1080p resolution, since Sharp makes 52" LCD screens in the lower resolutions. At a street price of $1,400, I doubt that this is the 120 Hz model, since the 120 Hz models have a street price of at least $1,700. Have you compared the specs on Costco's website with the info on Sharp's site? That's usually your best clue.

And with any Sharp, I would check with the AVS Forum for any lingering issues, because they were the first ones that brought up the color banding problems with Sharp's first generation 120 Hz sets last year. Sharp has supposedly fixed this issue, but their reputation and market share plummeted in the aftermath.

What scares me about Plasma is the shipping. Mail order is pretty much out of the question, so I need to buy locally and with a good warranty, like they offer at Costco (and to a lesser extent CC/BB). Fortunately there's enough stores here in SoCal, but it's still a matter of actually getting one. Many stores have just a few and tomorrow most of those will be sold.

Why would shipping scare you? Ordering thru Costco's website will only cost you ~$40 for shipping. I opted for that because I wasn't sure if the TV would fit in our car, and didn't want to fuss with trying to keep the thing upright (recommended position for plasmas because of the glass) during transport. Paul's TV is the only retailer I'm aware of that does free/same day shipping in the L.A. area. Heard that their Black Friday deal is a free Wii or Blu-ray player with any LCD or plasma purchase.

One more question, is there a "dynamic contrast ratio" I should be shooting for? Some are like 30K:1 while others are as low as 1600:1. Does this even matter? Some also mention speed in ms. I know this is an issue when purchasing monitors for our graphic design staff at work, but does it really matter with a TV?

Dynamic contrast ratio is more of a BS figure. The native contrast ratio is closer to reality. The Pannys' "dynamic" contrast ratio is quoted at 1,000,000:1, and doesn't get anywhere near that on real world benchmark tests. LCDs do not test well in this respect because they require a backlight. However, LED backlighting improves the contrast, and I'm sure that when laser backlighting makes its way over to LCD panels, it will improve even more since that will enable purer black levels.

The pixel response time quoted on LCDs is another figure that deserves more scrutiny because it does not necessarily correlate with real world motion resolution tests. All TVs lose resolution when an image is put into motion, and LCDs lose the most resolution. Home Theater magazine did a roundup test last year, and found that the 120 Hz LCDs' motion resolution all tested well under 600 lines (on a 1080p test signal), while the 1080p 60 Hz LCD TV they tested displayed fewer than 400 lines. The 1080p Panny plasmas displayed around 800 lines (their current models will supposedly display 900 lines).

[RoadRunner6]

Pix's inbred induced comments are a perfect example of my statement above:

".....These comments are directed mainly to quality brand plasma's and is another reason not to buy el cheapo sets which specifically usually have very disappointing PQ on SDTV......"

He owns a Vizio LCD TV which gives very good performance on HDTV but lousy performance on SDTV.

Nightflier, disregard all the published specs on contrast ratio. There is no common industry wide method of measuring contrast ratio. Manufacturers can list about anything they want. Only consider comparative contrast figures from reviews that test different models on the same basis.

Speed in ms refers to the pixels ability to quickly change. LCD's have in the past had problems with "motion blur" due to their slowness. They have improved signifiantly but still lag (pun intended) behind plasma. If you watch sports broadcast or do fast moving games plasma is the only way to go. Go to the AVS Forum in their section on the Panny 50" TH-50PZ80U and read the user reports from those who have had both LCD's and plamsa's for sports and games, their reported difference between the two types of displays is very noticable.

The online dealers ship 100's of thoudands of plasma's each year with no problems. The are specially prepared. I have friends who have ordered online form reputable dealers such as Vann's, Visual Apex and B&H with zero problems. Many more plasma's are damaged by folks bringing them home on their sides in the back of pickup trucks, SUV's and vans then by shipping companies.

That said, I brought home both Panny 50" plasma's on their sides in the truck of our 2001 Honda Accord, which was a tight but perfect fit, with a little bungy cord to keep the trunk lid down. We live only 3 miles away from Costco and it is an easy 35 mph drive, no problems.

Happy Turkey,

RR6

[mbbuchanan]

I have no TV deals or opinions to share, I just wanted to wish every one a happy Thanksgiving!

[sonicbrush]

Just stumbled upon this forum in my search for an inexpensiive 46 inch LCD for my wife so she can watch The View, Oprah and Rachel Ray in their full HD glory. We've decided on the SonyKDL46S4100 that lists for $1400 and will be available at Walmart on Black Friday for a mere $900.

But that's not what attracted me to write to this forum in my busy schedule editing/mixing audio and video for a living so end-users like this forum's contributors enjoy at their respective home theater systems. I was amazed at the level of sophomoric name-calling and smearing that goes on. Reminds me of the early days of digital vs analog debates in our own audio forums which evolved into ProTools or not ProTools. It's nauseatingly endless.There's always something to argue about. But these arguments are what drives the industry to go where it's supposed to or not, as in Beta or VHS format wars back in the day. The Alpha project (VHS), if you will, was sold to the highest sucker or bidder, who had deeper marketing pockets than the Beta R&D people were willing to spend and were cocky enough to think that no one would buy into such an inferior technology as Alpha. But Alpha people flooded the market with cheap Alpha players driving the format wars into where it was, leaving Beta in the dust with it's pricey players sending the Beta format into oblivion and as it stands, just a small footnote in video history. This affected even audio professionals in the advent of cheap MDMs, modular digital machines as in Adat 8 track recorders using the SVHS format instead of the better-sounding and more robust Akai 12 track Beta-based format.

So yeah, your arguments now may make or break certain technologies especially the ones with deep marketing pockets. Not exactly the ones that are better but could not compete with the inferior's marketing budget. I say, let the people decide. If it's any good, people will buy it. Let's not drive bad trends into the forefront. The trend should be towards better quality at affordable prices. Can you really hear/see the difference, should be the question. MP3 or Wav, Mpeg or AVI? Audiophiles, as good as they are for the industry should examine if their gear is really good or just expensive so it must be good. Or are they just driving the price too high for the average consumer to enjoy, spelling doom for otherwise good cheap technology?

My 2 cents.

sonicbrush

ps - Sir Terrence the Terrible should lose that Behringer Feedback Detroyer. There is nothing that Behringer makes that even remotely sounds good to my ears. Why the need for feedback supressor in a home theater set up? Unless you do karaoke with it. Then look into other more worthy equipment that really does the job like the Peavey Freq Out or the Sabine Feedback Exterminator.

pss - Pixelthis - nice Picard picture

btw - I use both mac and pc, ProTools and Sonar (non-Protools), Toshiba 40 inch LCD and Panasonic 40 inch Viera plasma and our old trusty 32 inch Sony CRT before I send them out for your enjoyment to make sure they look and sound good to all users.

[Woochifer]

ps - Sir Terrence the Terrible should lose that Behringer Feedback Detroyer. There is nothing that Behringer makes that even remotely sounds good to my ears. Why the need for feedback supressor in a home theater set up? Unless you do karaoke with it. Then look into other more worthy equipment that really does the job like the Peavey Freq Out or the Sabine Feedback Exterminator.

Actually, several of us on this board (myself included) use the BFD.

Before you go blasting this board with your first post, you should read up on why people use that unit in the first place. FYI, none of us use the BFD as a full range feedback suppressor.

Rather, we use the BFD as a parametric subwoofer equalizer. In that application, anyone would be hard pressed to find a $120 system upgrade that delivers as much sound quality improvement as that unit does. In the lower ranges, it doesn't matter what kind of coloration occurs in the higher and midrange frequencies (just about everyone who owns a BFD will note that it's lousy for full-range equalization). So long as the unit can accurately attenuate the room-induced lower frequency peaks, and allow for precise frequency centering and bandwidth adjustments within the bass range, then it does its job. For EQing a subwoofer, the BFD does exactly that. Sure, there are other parametric EQs that are more accurate for full-range applications and easier to use, but they all cost at least double what Behringer charges for the BFD and don't necessarily do a better job in the lower frequencies.

Check around the net, there are entire boards dedicated to subwoofer equalization using the BFD. And a group of users has developed a Java-based freeware app (the Room EQ Wizard) that automates the equalization process on the BFD using a sound card, mic, and MIDI cable.

BTW, Terrence is an audio professional who doesn't think twice about spending five figures on a system addition. But, he also doesn't spend more than he has to if the BFD does its job as intended.

[sonicbrush]

Only your brain's limited bandwidth prevents you from receiving my signal. That post is not to blast anyone but the guilty of spreading false information. The ones that only get control of anything but a measly forum hiding behind a keyboard. Buying into Behringer, who by the way is guilty of ripping off other manufacturer's patents and designing their interface to mimic other high quality products with intent to lure consumers who don't know any better into using their products and in turn get other people who don't know any better, through forums as this, into buying into the whole suck cycle. For you to defend Behringer shows your limited brain capacity.
I offered a friendly advice to Sir Terence and for you to answer for him is again a sign of your limited bandwidth. The gist of my first post is really directed towards you and nobody else, wooch. In my busy schedule, I felt compelled to write a carefully-worded criticism of the way you word your posts. The part that says "the level of sophomoric name-calling and smearing" is directed towards you. See, you couldn't figure that out. I had to point it out. So I rest my case. You don't know everything nor do you check your facts before you pass it on as gospel. Heck, you probably started the bad Behringer trend. Any pro worth his skills will not buy into Behringer, full range or otherwise. I wouldn't even consider you an audiophile, wooch. That would be an insult to the true audiophile. A pedophile maybe.

And you know what else? Pixelthis makes more sense than you. And he's justified to send in that Picard finger pic, which I'm sure is for you. I feel sorry for you and the people who believe your BS . You're an idiot. no, a moron. Tone it down or tune out.

[audio amateur]

Only your brain's limited bandwidth prevents you from receiving my signal. That post is not to blast anyone but the guilty of spreading false information. The ones that only get control of anything but a measly forum hiding behind a keyboard.

...

And you know what else? Pixelthis makes more sense than you. And he's justified to send in that Picard finger pic, which I'm sure is for you. I feel sorry for you and the people who believe your BS . You're an idiot. no, a moron. Tone it down or tune out.

Explanation please?

[RoadRunner6]

I was amazed at the level of sophomoric name-calling and smearing that goes on.

Wow!

This guy makes the above statement and then follows it up with this statement:

".....Only your brain's limited bandwidth prevents you from receiving my signal......"

Can anyone spell the word hypocrisy?

I think this might be one of Pix's inbred cousins here. I took the liberty of investigating him and have come of with a photo of Sonicbrush and his twin brother Oral-B.

Now I have to get back to my busy schedule and eat another piece of pimpkin pie.

RR6

[sonicbrush]

yeah and if you own a behringer you're an audiophile. bwah hahaha. you guys dedicate a whole forum to behringer...get a life.

roadrunner...you must be Wooch's second in command. You must be the 2nd guy to buy behringer and spread the word that it sounds good. You must work for behringer.

[RoadRunner6]

Sorry Toothbrush, I own a Velodyne SMS-1. Now why don't you proceed to tear that down. Are you the one with the big ears?

[sonicbrush]

Velodyne Schmelodyne, you think I'll be impressed with the names you drop? Damage is already done. You glorified Behringer, the technology thief. I just wanted to see how the other half lives and see what you consumers are talking about. Not the truth, but wanking each other off with what you think are impressive quality audiophile products. Instead you pass off bad information that's mostly second hand news and you don't even check your facts. And when somebody like me comes along and shakes your tree, you resort to this and I say again, sophomoric name calling and smearing. No wonder you spend all your time in this forum. This is the only place you think you can feel important. Get a life. It's really you two dynamic duos that's what's wrong with this forum of yours that you're so proud of. Woochifer and Roadrunner stop pretending you know what you're talking about and stop passing bad information. And no you're not audiophiles by virtue of allegedly owning a Velodyne. If you really are you'll avoid Behringer at all cost.

I wonder what you guys really think of what I'm buying my wife for Christmas, and the reason I searched for TV forums, the Sony KDL 46S4100. I'm sure you'll knock that too and call me names.

[JohnMichael]

Velodyne Schmelodyne, you think I'll be impressed with the names you drop? Damage is already done. You glorified Behringer, the technology thief. I just wanted to see how the other half lives and see what you consumers are talking about. Not the truth, but wanking each other off with what you think are impressive quality audiophile products. Instead you pass off bad information that's mostly second hand news and you don't even check your facts. And when somebody like me comes along and shakes your tree, you resort to this and I say again, sophomoric name calling and smearing. No wonder you spend all your time in this forum. This is the only place you think you can feel important. Get a life. It's really you two dynamic duos that's what's wrong with this forum of yours that you're so proud of. Woochifer and Roadrunner stop pretending you know what you're talking about and stop passing bad information. And no you're not audiophiles by virtue of allegedly owning a Velodyne. If you really are you'll avoid Behringer at all cost.

I wonder what you guys really think of what I'm buying my wife for Christmas, and the reason I searched for TV forums, the Sony KDL 46S4100. I'm sure you'll knock that too and call me names.

You are making a wonderful first impression. I may be making the last impression.