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  1. #1
    Indifferentist Slosh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Are separate pre/pros and multichannel power amps really necessary?
    Absolutely YES, but only for professional DVD reviewers.
    Originally Posted by Troy: She has that same kind of cleft-pallet, slightly retarded way of singing that so many other people find endearing.


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    Receiver Or Separates: What's Your Final Take?

    Which device(s) do you prefer and why and/or which ones do you use specifically for home theater surround purposes? It seems as if there is a great deal of hoopla surrounding (no pun intended) this subject lately; are receivers "good enough" to do the home theater system job -- even those in the $500 and up bracket? Should these simply be discarded because of their price tags and "iffy" wattage ratings? My Onkyo TX-SR600 (replaced by no less than two models already) is still ticking and rocking my home theater just fine and it's not part of a separates system.....

    Are separate pre/pros and multichannel power amps really necessary or can receivers do "the job" for the most part?

  3. #3
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    Well here's one way to think about it..as in all electronics a dedicated unit will normally outperform an all-in-one.

    As an enthusiast, would you:
    Rather have a $100 VCR/DVD player combo, or seperate units? A combo player is probably 'good enough' for most people that don't care about the difference.

    Rather have a single full range speaker or a speaker system with dedicated subwoofer, mids, and tweeters? Of course the seperate system will sound much better..but for some people a full range system will be good enough.

    I guess it just all depends on how serious you are. If you're looking for a $500 receiver then forget about seperates. Ain't gonna happen. Once you get into the $1500 range, you're serious and it's time for seperates.

  4. #4
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Nice try, but you can easily check for answers in your previous redundant thread on this subject.

    Are Receivers "Good Enough"?

  5. #5
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Wooch is right.

    Been there.

    Done that.

  6. #6
    all around good guy Jim Clark's Avatar
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    I almost crapped myself. "Final Take"? I wish.

    Dood, forget about seperates, you can't afford them. Be a man and live with your gear and save your money to finally move out of your parents house.

    jc
    "Ahh, cartoons! America's only native art form. I don't count jazz 'cuz it sucks"- Bartholomew J. Simpson

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Which device(s) do you prefer and why and/or which ones do you use specifically for home theater surround purposes? It seems as if there is a great deal of hoopla surrounding (no pun intended) this subject lately; are receivers "good enough" to do the home theater system job -- even those in the $500 and up bracket? Should these simply be discarded because of their price tags and "iffy" wattage ratings? My Onkyo TX-SR600 (replaced by no less than two models already) is still ticking and rocking my home theater just fine and it's not part of a separates system.....

    Are separate pre/pros and multichannel power amps really necessary or can receivers do "the job" for the most part?

    Hi,

    I had experienced many receivers before owning separates. I don’t quite remember what models but they were 3 Yamaha//Sansui receivers. The whole point is, like others stated, the separates are definitely better.

    But how much you are serious about your home theater system ??!!

    If you are serious enough, meaning that you are willing to spend much time and money on the system. Then, separates is the answer. In other words, receivers won't do the job.

    But remember that this is a never ending story. Meaning that you will invest more and more… until you decide to spend time and money on some other hobbies.

    Make your decision.

    (You may check my system in my profile.)

    Good luck.

    Sukasem

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slosh
    Absolutely YES, but only for professional DVD reviewers.
    Ahhhhhhh......thanks for clearing that up for me Slosh......I guess that's why DVD ETC. Magazine and Home Theater both have no problems understanding that I'm running a RECEIVER based system to do reviews, and that they CONTINUOUSLY BOTH spotlight receivers during their gear roundup.....hmmmmm......you're right.......

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Nice try, but you can easily check for answers in your previous redundant thread on this subject.

    Are Receivers "Good Enough"?
    Not worth more than this as a reply.......

  10. #10
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    "Well here's one way to think about it..as in all electronics a dedicated unit will normally outperform an all-in-one."

    Thanks, N.

    "As an enthusiast, would you:
    Rather have a $100 VCR/DVD player combo, or seperate units?"

    OF COURSE separate units in this case, but I do feel that with RECEIVERS we are talking about something completely different here -- I dont feel RECEIVERS are the same thing we're talking about when mentioning DVD/VCR combos; I think the technology in receivers is taken a bit more seriously than those combo decks, dont you?

    "Rather have a single full range speaker or a speaker system with dedicated subwoofer, mids, and tweeters? Of course the seperate system will sound much better..but for some people a full range system will be good enough."

    But in most satellite setups, isn't the concept TO separate the mids from the sub bass and so we have dedicated subs for that?

    "I guess it just all depends on how serious you are. If you're looking for a $500 receiver then forget about seperates. Ain't gonna happen. Once you get into the $1500 range, you're serious and it's time for seperates."

    Then what exactly are you GETTING with these $6000 "flagship" model receivers exactly?

  11. #11
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    "I had experienced many receivers before owning separates. I don’t quite remember what models but they were 3 Yamaha//Sansui receivers. The whole point is, like others stated, the separates are definitely better."

    Thanks for your input; well, if you owned SANSUI receivers, I can understand why you believe separates would be better.......

    But how much you are serious about your home theater system ??!!

    "In other words, receivers won't do the job."

    Why not? They contain all the processing necessary for the decoding work --- DTS, DTS ES, etc; what's the problem do you think with wrapping everything up in one chassis?

    "But remember that this is a never ending story. Meaning that you will invest more and more… until you decide to spend time and money on some other hobbies."

    True. So, how many "watts" do we need or just how much power MUST a multichannel power amp push out to satisfy a home theater's needs? How much money must be spent?

    "Make your decision."

    Easier said than done, but thanks again for your thoughts.

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    To each his/her own. Seperates are not only more expensive, but you also need a lot more inter-connects....My bro-inlaw has a Denon 5800 with a Conrad Johnson 2 channel running his mains, it sounds near perfection to my ears and a less costly and confusing then "true" seperates.
    Denon 3802
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    Hitachi 51" HDTV
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    Energy xl-26 mains
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    Velodyne CHT-10
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    Wooch is right.

    Been there.

    Done that.
    Right. Whatever. Just so happens this topic has been hot around here lately by other members, such as G Michael, so I guess Im to blame for that, too. Thanks for clearing that one up.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Clark
    I almost crapped myself. "Final Take"? I wish.

    Dood, forget about seperates, you can't afford them. Be a man and live with your gear and save your money to finally move out of your parents house.

    jc
    First of all, "Jim", I am living 35 miles now from where my family retired, so you dont know what you are talking about-----plus, my father is in very, very serious cardiac condition right now so I'd appreciate it if you would lay off the family oriented comments. I KNOW the circumstances for why I needed to move in my heart and soul and YOU dont, and I know I made the right decision and needed to be closer with my family and thats really no business of yours how I handle that. You don't understand how important family is for many people, no matter what their age, and you don't really know what an individual is going through personally in their lives to make any kind of personal judgement or sarcastic remark like you did above.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JES14
    To each his/her own. Seperates are not only more expensive, but you also need a lot more inter-connects....My bro-inlaw has a Denon 5800 with a Conrad Johnson 2 channel running his mains, it sounds near perfection to my ears and a less costly and confusing then "true" seperates.


    Thanks for your input; so in other words, based on what your brother in law has set up, are you suggesting the route of using the receiver as the pre pro and then adding a multichannel amp for power? I was DEFINITELY considering this, using my Onkyo as the pre pro and adding an amp, unfortunately, my unit does not have preouts.....
    Last edited by Lexmark3200; 09-14-2005 at 10:35 AM.

  16. #16
    JSE
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    "Then what exactly are you GETTING with these $6000 "flagship" model receivers exactly?
    Your getting better power sources, better DACs, better remote, more inputs and outputs for more components, more fine tuning ability, more speakers, easier switching and most of all CONVENIENCE. Everything in one box. This is not to say you can't get all this with seperates, but you would have to spend a lot more than $6k to get all the bells and whistles of the flagship A/V receivers.

    JSE

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSE
    Your getting better power sources, better DACs, better remote, more inputs and outputs for more components, more fine tuning ability, more speakers, easier switching and most of all CONVENIENCE. Everything in one box. This is not to say you can't get all this with seperates, but you would have to spend a lot more than $6k to get all the bells and whistles of the flagship A/V receivers.

    JSE
    Okay, JSE, I can see this.....the better power sources, better DACs, etc.; but are these "flagship" models really worth the $6K companies like Onkyo and Denon want for them? Aside from multi-room powering capabilities (which to me personally would be unnecessary) will or do these units really put out their advertised watts they claim? Most in this price bracket claim to spit out around 170 watts a channel; is this accurate? Would a flagship receiver SOUND BETTER at this price bracket than dedicated multichannel power amps and processors? Are these flagship receivers worth the money?

  18. #18
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Right. Whatever. Just so happens this topic has been hot around here lately by other members, such as G Michael, so I guess Im to blame for that, too. Thanks for clearing that one up.
    Uhm.. Should I feel hurt?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  19. #19
    JSE
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Okay, JSE, I can see this.....the better power sources, better DACs, etc.; but are these "flagship" models really worth the $6K companies like Onkyo and Denon want for them? Aside from multi-room powering capabilities (which to me personally would be unnecessary) will or do these units really put out their advertised watts they claim? Most in this price bracket claim to spit out around 170 watts a channel; is this accurate? Would a flagship receiver SOUND BETTER at this price bracket than dedicated multichannel power amps and processors? Are these flagship receivers worth the money?

    Would they sound better? Well unfortunately, there is no concrete answer to this. People have argued about this for years. I know it's hard for you to not get an absolute answer but your not going to get one on this.

    Are they worth the money? Again, no absolute answer. A $700 receiver is not worth the money to some. If the flagship does something that you need it to do and lesser receivers do not, then it's worth the money. Again, it's different for each person.

    Now can we move on now? As mentioned above, this has been covered with you many times before.

    Oh and JES14 is not related to me TLADINY.

    JSE

  20. #20
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Okay, JSE, I can see this.....the better power sources, better DACs, etc.; but are these "flagship" models really worth the $6K companies like Onkyo and Denon want for them? Aside from multi-room powering capabilities (which to me personally would be unnecessary) will or do these units really put out their advertised watts they claim? Most in this price bracket claim to spit out around 170 watts a channel; is this accurate? Would a flagship receiver SOUND BETTER at this price bracket than dedicated multichannel power amps and processors? Are these flagship receivers worth the money?
    You do get a lot with these bad boys. They are worth the money to me. I would still go with separates at this amount though. Better flexibility and a little better sound. Nothing wrong with the flagships as far as I can see.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSE
    Would they sound better? Well unfortunately, there is no concrete answer to this. People have argued about this for years. I know it's hard for you to not get an absolute answer but your not going to get one on this.

    Are they worth the money? Again, no absolute answer. A $700 receiver is not worth the money to some. If the flagship does something that you need it to do and lesser receivers do not, then it's worth the money. Again, it's different for each person.

    Now can we move on now? As mentioned above, this has been covered with you many times before.

    Oh and JES14 is not related to me TLADINY.

    JSE
    Well, as always, thanks for the thoughtful insight from you that seems to lead no one nowhere; I appreciate that.

    Oh----and I had thought that JES was another one of your personalities now first coming to the surface as I have no idea what this TLADINY reference is.

    So, your final take on this is.......you dont know what these flagship receivers can offer and if they put out the advertised wattage they claim? You have NOTHING to say as far as if these $6,000 models will outperform or perform as well as separates at the same price range? As a matter of fact, we cant move on from this because there are still folks like G Michael who understand and appreciate the importance of this subject.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Uhm.. Should I feel hurt?
    No, no, G-----I was trying to make a point about the hot topic that is receivers vs. separates, thats all. Dont feel hurt, my friend! Its an awesome topic!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    You do get a lot with these bad boys. They are worth the money to me. I would still go with separates at this amount though. Better flexibility and a little better sound. Nothing wrong with the flagships as far as I can see.
    Thanks for your thoughts on this important subject, G.....when you say they are "worth the money" to you, in what way do you mean? Power wise? Multi-room zoning wise? And then why would you go to separates at that point if you feel this way? Is it the better flexibility and better sound of the separates that you experience? But then you say nothing wrong with the flagships, so I was a bit confused.......

  24. #24
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Thanks for your thoughts on this important subject, G.....when you say they are "worth the money" to you, in what way do you mean? Power wise? Multi-room zoning wise? And then why would you go to separates at that point if you feel this way? Is it the better flexibility and better sound of the separates that you experience? But then you say nothing wrong with the flagships, so I was a bit confused.......
    You're right, my answer is a little confusing. But it's because I feel that both, flagship AVR's and separates are worth it. If you want to get just one unit that does it all, then the AVR's are the way to go. They are "good enough." The flagships are even "more than good enough." You can run your whole house including outside with one of these puppies and they will sound very good.
    But if you go to separates I believe that you get just a little more sound quality. Maybe not a lot, but some. How important that "some" is to you can only be answered by you. Everyone has their own opinion on this. Yours should be the only one that counts for you. Personally, I don't think there is a huge difference, but there is one. And for the same money? What the heck, give me the platinum instead of the gold.
    When I wrote more flexible for separates I meant for multi-room stuff. Why have one driving 2 rooms instead of 2 driving 2 rooms?

    I know it's frustrating not to be able to get a "final answer" on this issue. But that's because there really isn't one. Some people like one thing, some like another. All you can do is get all the info you can, listen to as many different set-ups as you can, and make a decision that makes you feel good inside. No matter what choice you make, some will tell you it was wrong, others will say you made the best choice. I think both choices are good. You get a lot either way.

    Don't worry, be happy........
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  25. #25
    JSE
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    So, your final take on this is.......you dont know what these flagship receivers can offer and if they put out the advertised wattage they claim? You have NOTHING to say as far as if these $6,000 models will outperform or perform as well as separates at the same price range? As a matter of fact, we cant move on from this because there are still folks like G Michael who understand and appreciate the importance of this subject.
    Man, your like a broken record. You asked questions that have no absolute answer and then barrade the people who try and explain this to you.

    Do flagship receivers put ouu their advertised power? NO. I know of no A/V that actually puts out the power they claim. However, the flagships have much better power sources and are probably rated closer to reality than lower end models.
    Will they outpeform or perform as well as seperates in the same general price range? In what areas? Video, Audio, Switchability, Convenience, what? Chances are you will not hear much if any of an improvement in perceived sound. Now with very high end hard to drive speakers, maybe seperates will be able to dirve them better thus giving "better" sound.

    As for your main question about whether seperates are worth it? AGAIN and for the last time, only you can make this determination. There are pro's and con's to each. Depending on what you want (which you have yet to tell us) they may or may not make sense for you.

    IMHO, if I were you and thank god I am not, I would upgrade my speakers and especially my sub. Maybe even do some room acoustic room treatments. These three things will give you far far far better improvements than just upgrading your receiver. Spend money wisely and not just on seperates because they "seem" better and more high end.

    JSE

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