Are Receivers "Good Enough"?

[Lexmark3200]

Of course, we would all love to have the budget for multi-channel power amps to send juice to EACH of our loudspeakers in our home theater systems, and parametric EQs to control the sound of EACH of those amps with 100s of thousands of watts, but for those of you running more "realistic" systems such as I am, with a receiver at the heart of that system, do you feel that it's sufficient in satisfying your home theater needs? Are receivers, for the most part, if they are of a good grade, "good enough" to power a home theater system alone WITHOUT going separate power amp and pre/pro combos?

How many of you are running just one simple receiver to power your surround sound system, and how are you finding the kind of job it is doing?

[Geoffcin]

Of course, we would all love to have the budget for multi-channel power amps to send juice to EACH of our loudspeakers in our home theater systems, and parametric EQs to control the sound of EACH of those amps with 100s of thousands of watts, but for those of you running more "realistic" systems such as I am, with a receiver at the heart of that system, do you feel that it's sufficient in satisfying your home theater needs? Are receivers, for the most part, if they are of a good grade, "good enough" to power a home theater system alone WITHOUT going separate power amp and pre/pro combos?

How many of you are running just one simple receiver to power your surround sound system, and how are you finding the kind of job it is doing?

For most consumer grade speakers with a benign 8 ohm resistance, and decent 88dB or better efficiency a typical 100 wpc receiver will do fine. When you start to get into speaker with lower efficiencies, and harder to drive loads that dip to 4ohm or lower then a receiver might not cut it. Also, for people who are into multi-channel music the absolute BEST setup would be a totally discrete system with 5 identical speakers. For home theater this is NOT nessasary.

[GMichael]

Of course, we would all love to have the budget for multi-channel power amps to send juice to EACH of our loudspeakers in our home theater systems, and parametric EQs to control the sound of EACH of those amps with 100s of thousands of watts, but for those of you running more "realistic" systems such as I am, with a receiver at the heart of that system, do you feel that it's sufficient in satisfying your home theater needs? Are receivers, for the most part, if they are of a good grade, "good enough" to power a home theater system alone WITHOUT going separate power amp and pre/pro combos?

How many of you are running just one simple receiver to power your surround sound system, and how are you finding the kind of job it is doing?

Hi Lex,

I love my system. It has fantastic sound to me. 95% or more of the average people looking for a HT system would probably agree with me. In fact, I bet if you put the other 5% in my room with a blindfold on they would even say that it sounds good to them.

It's just this stuppid improvement bug that I've cought. Now that I've had a taste of how good it can sound, I want more, more, and still more improvements. It's got to be better at any cost! I've heard better speakers. But those speakers need more amps than my receiver can give. I have been to a few hi-end shops and heard some very expensive equiptment over the last few months. Do they sound better than mine? Sure. Are they 10, 20 or 30 times better? H.ll no! But I want them anyhow.

Want and need are not the same. The receiver I have is plennty for anyone who hasn't been spoilled yet. I have it on every chance I get. In fact, wait, do you hear that? It's calling me now. Listen, "play me.... play me.... Sorry, have to run for now......

[Lexmark3200]

"For most consumer grade speakers with a benign 8 ohm resistance, and decent 88dB or better efficiency a typical 100 wpc receiver will do fine."


Thanks Geo,

I appreciate your input; but what about folks like me with receivers with UNDER 100 watts per channel (rated full bandwidth or so Onkyo claims)? This TX-SR600 seems to have "just enough" power to fill the MASSIVE room it's in with sound, but its rated at 80 watts x 6........

[Lexmark3200]

Hi Lex,

I love my system. It has fantastic sound to me. 95% or more of the average people looking for a HT system would probably agree with me. In fact, I bet if you put the other 5% in my room with a blindfold on they would even say that it sounds good to them.

It's just this stuppid improvement bug that I've cought. Now that I've had a taste of how good it can sound, I want more, more, and still more improvements. It's got to be better at any cost! I've heard better speakers. But those speakers need more amps than my receiver can give. I have been to a few hi-end shops and heard some very expensive equiptment over the last few months. Do they sound better than mine? Sure. Are they 10, 20 or 30 times better? H.ll no! But I want them anyhow.

Want and need are not the same. The receiver I have is plennty for anyone who hasn't been spoilled yet. I have it on every chance I get. In fact, wait, do you hear that? It's calling me now. Listen, "play me.... play me.... Sorry, have to run for now......

Hahhahahaha Thanks Michael!

Thank you for your thoughts; like Geo, they are putting me a bit at ease knowing I'll be "okay" with "just" my receiver for now.....

I see it in your signature, but what brand is your receiver.....Yamaha or Harmon Kardon?

[N. Abstentia]

You can always add a good 5 channel amp to your receiver (if it has preamp outputs) which will make a huge difference if you have capable speakers. A good amp can be had for under $500 on the used market.

[Lexmark3200]

You can always add a good 5 channel amp to your receiver (if it has preamp outputs) which will make a huge difference if you have capable speakers. A good amp can be had for under $500 on the used market.

Yes, Abstenia, this is knew.....thank you.....I was hoping to one day use the Onkyo Im running now as the pre/pro and add an amp, the only problem is this unit HAS no preamp outs.....for this reason, do you think I can be put at ease with the statement "the receiver is 'good enough'" even though you say the amps make a huge difference?

Can receivers be cosidered "good enough" though, even in your opinion, as the heart of most people's systems?

P.S. Is there ANY way around adding a five channel power amp to a receiver WITHOUT preamp outputs? I have heard this is possible using some kind of "converter" device, much like is used in car audio, where a factory radio's speaker-level lines are "convered" with an "RCA converter" to run a clean line to a car power amp; I have this setup in my own car. Is this possible somehow in home audio?

[GMichael]

Hahhahahaha Thanks Michael!

Thank you for your thoughts; like Geo, they are putting me a bit at ease knowing I'll be "okay" with "just" my receiver for now.....

I see it in your signature, but what brand is your receiver.....Yamaha or Harmon Kardon?

Mine is a Yamaha. But I looked at Denon, Onkio and HK before I bought it. The 75 & 80 wpc systems sounded good too. I'm sure that's much more than you would get with one of those $3k Bose systems. And even they sound pretty good. The average Joe would think they just bought the best system available.

[Geoffcin]

"For most consumer grade speakers with a benign 8 ohm resistance, and decent 88dB or better efficiency a typical 100 wpc receiver will do fine."


Thanks Geo,

I appreciate your input; but what about folks like me with receivers with UNDER 100 watts per channel (rated full bandwidth or so Onkyo claims)? This TX-SR600 seems to have "just enough" power to fill the MASSIVE room it's in with sound, but its rated at 80 watts x 6........

Not to worry! Onkyo, like HK, is notorious for underating their power, so a move to a 100wpc receiver would net you almost no gain, or added available gain as the case may be.

A massive room means a LARGER subwoofer is needed. I would budget my $$$ for this first. A move to a larger sub can net a LOT more bang-for-buck, than switching receivers.

[Lexmark3200]

Mine is a Yamaha. But I looked at Denon, Onkio and HK before I bought it. The 75 & 80 wpc systems sounded good too. I'm sure that's much more than you would get with one of those $3k Bose systems. And even they sound pretty good. The average Joe would think they just bought the best system available.

For the average "Joe" idiot consumer who knows NOTHING about audio, Bose is like the Holy Grail to them, when in reality, Bose is overrated crap. Denon and Onkyo are definitely doing the best receivers right now, and I wouldnt consider another brand if I were to buy all over again --- except for maybe a Yamaha like you have. The build quality and performance of Denon, (Yamaha) and Onkyo receivers seem light years superior to the likes of JVC, Kenwood, and ANY NON-ES designated Sony receiver models.....I wouldnt even consider anything Sony outside of a portable CD walkman product or a TV.

[Lexmark3200]

Not to worry! Onkyo, like HK, is notorious for underating their power, so a move to a 100wpc receiver would net you almost no gain, or added available gain as the case may be.

A massive room means a LARGER subwoofer is needed. I would budget my $$$ for this first. A move to a larger sub can net a LOT more bang-for-buck, than switching receivers.

When you say "underrated" you mean this unit MAY be pumping out, at certain peaks or times, MORE than the advertised 80 watts per channel? And I had thought that jumping to a higher-powered receiver would net little audible gain....I suspected this, even if I went with a "flagship" receiver from Onkyo, or another of my favorite brands, Denon.

I can see where a larger subwoofer would be needed in my case; my Polk is a 10" powered sub and definitely rocks the walls when it needs to, but I can only imagine what a LARGER sub would do......

[GMichael]

Not to worry! Onkyo, like HK, is notorious for underating their power, so a move to a 100wpc receiver would net you almost no gain, or added available gain as the case may be.

A massive room means a LARGER subwoofer is needed. I would budget my $$$ for this first. A move to a larger sub can net a LOT more bang-for-buck, than switching receivers.

I agree with Geo. When listening to HT I never get anywhere near max volume before it's too loud. It's only when I listen to music that I turn it up past -15db. Even then I don't leave it that high for long. The sub would make the biggest difference for HT. Love those big explossions and crashes.

[N. Abstentia]

Can receivers be cosidered "good enough" though, even in your opinion, as the heart of most people's systems?

P.S. Is there ANY way around adding a five channel power amp to a receiver WITHOUT preamp outputs? I have heard this is possible using some kind of "converter" device, much like is used in car audio, where a factory radio's speaker-level lines are "convered" with an "RCA converter" to run a clean line to a car power amp; I have this setup in my own car. Is this possible somehow in home audio?

Yes I think receivers can be good enough for most people as long as it's good quality. It just depends on how serious you want to get. For most people a Ford Escort is good enough, as it does the job of getting you from point A to point B. However other people prefer to get serious, spend some money, and get to point B in style and comfort.

If you don't have preamp outputs, don't even bother with an amp. Going through some crappy convertor would just rob you of any quality you would gain with the amp. Upgrade to a newer receiver first, and if you spend $1000 or so on a new receiver you might find you don't even need the amp.

[Lexmark3200]

I agree with Geo. When listening to HT I never get anywhere near max volume before it's too loud. It's only when I listen to music that I turn it up past -15db. Even then I don't leave it that high for long. The sub would make the biggest difference for HT. Love those big explossions and crashes.

Funny thing, Michael, on my Onkyo, the volume display scale is supposed to go from ZERO (0) to "99" with "99" being max output --- but this unit tops out NOWHERE NEAR "99"; it seems that near "99" there would be nothing but distortion anyway, even though my system is calibrated correctly and to my liking, but I often find myself needing to approach those high numbers --- like way past "50" in order to fill this big room with sound and drown out the ambient noises Im dealing with in this room, like four dogs barking, people talking and rustling snack food bags, etc.....are these ambient noises expected in a home theater setting, and should I be worried that I need to turn my volume up so high sometimes to achieve room-filling sound?

[Lexmark3200]

"Yes I think receivers can be good enough for most people as long as it's good quality. It just depends on how serious you want to get. For most people a Ford Escort is good enough, as it does the job of getting you from point A to point B. However other people prefer to get serious, spend some money, and get to point B in style and comfort."

I hear what you're saying; I feel the Onkyo I have --- and Onkyo receivers in general --- are of great quality.

"If you don't have preamp outputs, don't even bother with an amp. Going through some crappy convertor would just rob you of any quality you would gain with the amp. Upgrade to a newer receiver first, and if you spend $1000 or so on a new receiver you might find you don't even need the amp."

Thank you. I guess thats what I wanted to know.

[GMichael]

Funny thing, Michael, on my Onkyo, the volume display scale is supposed to go from ZERO (0) to "99" with "99" being max output --- but this unit tops out NOWHERE NEAR "99"; it seems that near "99" there would be nothing but distortion anyway, even though my system is calibrated correctly and to my liking, but I often find myself needing to approach those high numbers --- like way past "50" in order to fill this big room with sound and down out the ambient noises Im dealing with in this room, like four dogs barking, people talking and rustling snack food bags, etc.....are these ambient noises expected in a home theater setting, and should I be worried that I need to turn my volume up so high sometimes to achieve room-filling sound?

I guess that's a question that I can't really give you a quality answer on. Best I can do is say, if it doesn't sound distorted, then it should be ok.

Geo? Flo? any other high tech guys?

[Lexmark3200]

I guess that's a question that I can't really give you a quality answer on. Best I can do is say, if it doesn't sound distorted, then it should be ok.

Geo? Flo? any other high tech guys?

No, I am not getting ANY distortion at ANY sound level.......

[Geoffcin]

When you say "underrated" you mean this unit MAY be pumping out, at certain peaks or times, MORE than the advertised 80 watts per channel? And I had thought that jumping to a higher-powered receiver would net little audible gain....I suspected this, even if I went with a "flagship" receiver from Onkyo, or another of my favorite brands, Denon.......

I wouldn't go that far. I've heard nearly all of the mid-priced receivers and I'm hard pressed to state that any one brand bests the rest in sound quality. You do get a lot of bang for the buck with a mid-priced receiver though.

The flagships are a different breed entirely, and I DID notice a difference when one of these was hooked into the system. Most of these are rated 140 watts or better, and some, like the HK flagship, can dump 275 watts per channel into 4ohms( gobs above the "rated" performance). That's a lot of current, and it can drive most speakers like nobodies business.

Here's a link to some more info on receivers;

http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/

I can see where a larger subwoofer would be needed in my case; my Polk is a 10" powered sub and definitely rocks the walls when it needs to, but I can only imagine what a LARGER sub would do......

A 10" subwoofer is good for a moderate sized room, but once you hear what a high output 12", or even 15" subwoofer will do you will wonder how you ever got along without one.

[Lexmark3200]

"I wouldn't go that far. I've heard nearly all of the mid-priced receivers and I'm hard pressed to state that any one brand bests the rest in sound quality. You do get a lot of bang for the buck with a mid-priced receiver though."

When I auditioned home theater gear at J&R Music World in New York City, where I ultimately purchased all the equipment, I heard a definite difference between the Onkyos they had on display, and, say, the Harmon Kardons or other brands......J&R doesnt carry crap like JVC, so there wasnt much "crap" to compare to, but I have to be honest, even between these mid-priced receivers I was demoing, testing and feeling for BUILD QUALITY, I found the Onkyos to be and sound the best.....TO MY EARS. I have also been told by some friends I have on the editorial staff at Home Theater Magazine, based in Florida, that inside sources tell them that Onkyo and Denon are making the best receivers right now; its a bit of an inside secret, according to them, and they advised me not to consider another brand, but I did audition other brands while I was in J&R; ultimately, the salesman that spent three hours with me and my friend as I gathered up the gear for my system I was going to buy, recommended the TX-SR600 personally as well as stating that HE HIMSELF uses Onkyo in his own system and recommends the product tremendously. I can remember hearing an Onkyo stereo receiver this same friend that came with me had hooked up to his home system, and when cranked, this thing sounded like a good two channel power amp --- I'm not kidding. From that day, I was kind of sold on the brand's receiver abilities.

"The flagships are a different breed entirely, and I DID notice a difference when one of these was hooked into the system. Most of these are rated 140 watts or better, and some, like the HK flagship, can dump 275 watts per channel into 4ohms( gobs above the "rated" performance). That's a lot of current, and it can drive most speakers like nobodies business."

Hmmmmm.....interesting.....I will have to go demo some flagships. I have been told, on other home theater oriented websites, that many times jumping to these flagship receivers do not yield as much of a power difference as one would think --- especially compared to going separate amp/pre-pros as compared to a flagship receiver.


"A 10" subwoofer is good for a moderate sized room, but once you hear what a high output 12", or even 15" subwoofer will do you will wonder how you ever got along without one."

I suspected this; I have TWO Rockford Fosgate 15" subs in my car, so I know what 15's can do.....its just that this 10 has been doing fine for my movie-watching needs, and actually shakes the walls of this large room I'm in now, believe it or not........

[topspeed]

I will have to go demo some flagships. I have been told, on other home theater oriented websites, that many times jumping to these flagship receivers do not yield as much of a power difference as one would think --- especially compared to going separate amp/pre-pros as compared to a flagship receiver.

Power wise, I think you're absolutely right. However, a lot of flagship receivers, such as the mighty Denon 5805, bring a truck load of serious technology to the table. The DAC's, video processing chips, and auto EQ in this monster are absolutely state-of-the-art. It also offers multi-room, multi-source control that is a dream for installers. Imagine being able to run TWO separate 5.1 HT's from one receiver! From what I understand, the 5805 is up to the task. That's impressive.

That said, it is still a serious chunk of change and I'd be hard pressed to unload that many dead presidents on anything other than separates. You just have more choices with separates.

As for your situation, the fact that your Onkyo is fulfilling your needs with no sign of distortion pretty well answers your own question. Clearly, it's enough. I'm not into HT enough for me to run a killer pre/pro like a Halo C2 or Halcro SSP 100 w/ God-knows-what kind of multi-channel monster. I reserve that insanity for two-channel . For me, a good, high-quality receiver does just fine for my HT.

[Lexmark3200]

"Power wise, I think you're absolutely right. However, a lot of flagship receivers, such as the mighty Denon 5805, bring a truck load of serious technology to the table. The DAC's, video processing chips, and auto EQ in this monster are absolutely state-of-the-art. It also offers multi-room, multi-source control that is a dream for installers. Imagine being able to run TWO separate 5.1 HT's from one receiver! From what I understand, the 5805 is up to the task. That's impressive."

Yes, that is what I have come to understand about flagship receivers --- that they are on the absolute CUTTING EDGE of technology, and are the test beds for these manufacturers and their new decoding schemes, etc --- however, for me, these massive, multi-room-powering functions are of absolute no use to me, being that I ALWAYS run JUST ONE dedicated home theater system at a time, in one room. To me, these multi-room-purpose $6000 receivers are just unnecessary for certain overkill reasons; but this is a personal view.

"That said, it is still a serious chunk of change and I'd be hard pressed to unload that many dead presidents on anything other than separates. You just have more choices with separates."

This is what Im worried about ---- that separates may foot the bill better for the money than going with these so-called flagships....but, you address this below.....

"As for your situation, the fact that your Onkyo is fulfilling your needs with no sign of distortion pretty well answers your own question. Clearly, it's enough. I'm not into HT enough for me to run a killer pre/pro like a Halo C2 or Halcro SSP 100 w/ God-knows-what kind of multi-channel monster. I reserve that insanity for two-channel . For me, a good, high-quality receiver does just fine for my HT."

Well, I am REALLY into multichannel home theater cinema viewing/DVD viewing and audio analyzing to the point that its an obsessive hobby ---- I was just wondering if there were others out there with home theater setups relying on simple receivers and their internal power without the need for separate amps and the like; with my Onkyo, though, it seems I need to bring the volume level to a pretty high stage to fill this big room with sound ---- with NO distortion, mind you, but do you think this is normal, that we would need to bring our systems up pretty high to really get "immersed" in a DVD's soundtrack? And is it normal to be able to HEAR distracting ambient noises around you if you are watching in a NON DEDICATED, non-noise-treated home theater room, such as dogs barking or snack bags rustling or someone next to you talking? Would all this be considered "normal" in a home theater when running a receiver for main power?

[topspeed]

[QUOTE=Lexmark3200do you think this is normal, that we would need to bring our systems up pretty high to really get "immersed" in a DVD's soundtrack? And is it normal to be able to HEAR distracting ambient noises around you if you are watching in a NON DEDICATED, non-noise-treated home theater room, such as dogs barking or snack bags rustling or someone next to you talking? Would all this be considered "normal" in a home theater when running a receiver for main power?[/QUOTE]
I dunno, most people consider me pretty well abnormal anyways .

Seriously though, for 99% of the population, hearing ambient noises is just life happening. Who hasn't gone to a movie where some doughnut is yapping away on their cellphone, slowing prying open the celophane wrapper on their candy, or doesn't have the good sense to walk out of the theatre with their crying infant? At home we have dogs barking, washing machines going, kids screaming, et al. In other words, the answer to your question is "Yes."

[Lexmark3200]

"Seriously though, for 99% of the population, hearing ambient noises is just life happening. Who hasn't gone to a movie where some doughnut is yapping away on their cellphone, slowing prying open the celophane wrapper on their candy, or doesn't have the good sense to walk out of the theatre with their crying infant? At home we have dogs barking, washing machines going, kids screaming, et al. In other words, the answer to your question is "Yes."

Thank you very much. You have made me sleep better tonight! Seriously!

[alexperl]

I am in stereo new and i have Pre Power and Power Amp From rotel.
I whant to enjoy movies as well i enjoy my music.
I deside to buy another Power Amp and a Prossesor insted of a reciever, becouse i really whant to keep the sound quallity that i have right now.
And i think that the same quallity of a reciver will coast much much more.

[Glen B]

A few years ago I traded up (or is it down) separates for an Onkyo HT receiver. I just got tired of the mixing and matching and trying to find the right pre-processor. So far I have been happy with the receiver. One thing though, I made sure the receiver I bought had pre-outs for all channels just in case I ever decided to add an external multichannel amp.