A Newb's Cry for Help (trying to build a small system on a budget)

[hershon]

MY definition of Home Theater in a Box means you get all the speakers, DVD/receiver manufactured from the same company. I don't see how buying speakers manufactured by one company OrbAudio and a DVD/Receiver manufactured by another company JVC equals home theater in a box. OrbAudio sells it not at a profit just to save customers time on a compliment to their system. My problem with HTIB is that the receiver may be good and the speakers not so good or vice versa. The crap propogated on this board about why you shouldn't have DVD receivers is just that. I've never heard of the DVD portion going caput. The problem with many people on this board and I'll say it again and again is alot of people on it have no common sense- they don't applaud or criticize a product because of the way it sounds but are more into technical gobbly gook.

Let's see, an all-in-one speaker package plus an integrated DVD player/receiver ... sounds an awful lot like an HTIB setup to me.

[Woochifer]

MY definition of Home Theater in a Box means you get all the speakers, DVD/receiver manufactured from the same company. I don't see how buying speakers manufactured by one company OrbAudio and a DVD/Receiver manufactured by another company JVC equals home theater in a box. OrbAudio sells it not at a profit just to save customers time on a compliment to their system. My problem with HTIB is that the receiver may be good and the speakers not so good or vice versa. The crap propogated on this board about why you shouldn't have DVD receivers is just that. I've never heard of the DVD portion going caput. The problem with many people on this board and I'll say it again and again is alot of people on it have no common sense- they don't applaud or criticize a product because of the way it sounds but are more into technical gobbly gook.

Oh? Orb sells the JVC DVD/receiver and the speakers as a package with instructions on how to use the two units together. Again, all-in-one speaker package plus an integrated DVD/receiver -- how's that any different from other home theater in a box offerings? Just because they don't have the same brand name doesn't change what segment of the market they serve, or what the product is.

Integrated DVD/receivers are about convenience. You may have never heard of a DVD portion blanking out, but friends of mine who've worked in AV sales see defective products come back to their stores all the time, many of which are integrated components that have lost one function. An integrated component greatly your chances of having to send the entire unit back with a defect, and as such they do not recommended integrated combo components (particularly ones that combine a solid state component with something that has motors and moving parts that wear out) precisely because if one part breaks, you have to send back the whole thing. You mean you've never heard of a defective DVD player, or one that needs a firmware update, or receivers with unreliable power supply sections?

These drawbacks to integrated components are very much common sense based. If a transistor shorts out on an integrated receiver, then you lose your disc player as well when you send it back If the drawer can no longer open on the DVD part of an integrated receiver, then you can't listen to music while the thing's in the shop. If either of these problems occur with separate components, then you retain functionality of part of your system while that component is out of commission, and you retain the option to upgrade one component rather than having to upgrade both. To me THAT'S common sense.

I don't know what planet you've been reading this board from, but people who frequent the forum are very much concerned about sound quality. They discuss the technical details because they know how it potentially impacts on the sound quality.

If anything, you're falling prey to a common fallacy among a lot of the newbies that have come and gone through this forum over the years. They buy a system that they like and automatically presume that it is the best approach for everybody. You bought yourself an Orb system with an integrated receiver. You like the sound quality, so therefore people who made other decisions or have other opinions lack common sense and are only concerned with technical jibberish rather than sound quality. Pretty presumptuous there. It's fine to enjoy your system, but let's not get carried away with all these other tangents and assumptions about other people.

BTW, the original poster already has a DVD player, so why are you recommending that he go with an integrated receiver? Because two DVD players are better than one? Or because you already own one?

[topspeed]

You've got quite a few decent options, many which have already been posted. I know both Geoffcin (a regular here) and myself have experience with Cambridge Soundworks products and recommend them highly. http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/s...7zz&type=store

CSW was founded by the late, great Henry Kloss of AR, KLH, and Advent fame. You're probably too young to know this, but a long time ago in a far away galaxy, these brands were the state of the art in Henry's day and are far superior to the slap-branded iterations that you find today.

CSW represent exceptional bang for the buck and offer a 30 day money back guarantee so you can audition them in your room, which is ideal. I think they even pay for return shipping so there really is very little risk involved. The good news is that they are equally coherent all the way from low levels to "yes, that's the RA at the door."
I would also choose Onkyo over Sony or JVC in a New York minute.

Overall though, I'd listen to Wooch and try to exercise patience. Doing it piece by piece will net you a lifetime of enjoyment as opposed to the band-aid approach you seem to prefer. Think big picture.

[hershon]

You actually make some good points here. First off, I must have misread the part about him already having a DVD player- my fault on that one. I still don't consider something Home theater in a box if they're two seperate components manufactured by different entities. Orb (they ought to put me on the payroll for this) sells the receiver as an option- people don't have to buy it, mainly for the convenience of their customers. They feel this receiver compliments their speakers and I totally agree with them. I admit there is always a chance the DVD part of the receiver could get broken but I think the odds are pretty low, that's all I'm saying. As far as me thinking that if I say something is good, everybody who hears it will think the same, no appologies there, I am a bit arrogant, as I said I produced a bunch of albums with name 60's English rock legends who still have their chops and my ears are great and everyone I've ever encountered would agree on that. Hey if I heard your system or someone elses, maybe I would say its better, I don't know. I just would not say your system is better without having listened to it based on technical specs though which is my whole point and problem with alot of people on this board. I've hardly seen anything stating about people liking something based on sound quality and particularly what sound quality they're talking about. I play alot of classic rock and blues and base my opinons of how that type of music sounds on my speakers. Perhaps if I played classical music it wouldn't sound as good. No one for the most part who even comments on sound quality bothers to refer to what music they're exactly talking about which is a major problem. Maybe a system sounds great playing classical music but the same system won't sound so great playing rock music. What I'm talking about is talking plain simple English which alot of people here do not seem capable of doing. Don't get me wrong, I'm on here because a couple of people have offered me great invaluable help which I totally appreciate. But others sound like they've never had a woman in their life! To me if you can get a system you're happy with, why spend thousands of dollars keep trying to make it better and better ad infinitum unless the technology demands it.

Oh? Orb sells the JVC DVD/receiver and the speakers as a package with instructions on how to use the two units together. Again, all-in-one speaker package plus an integrated DVD/receiver -- how's that any different from other home theater in a box offerings? Just because they don't have the same brand name doesn't change what segment of the market they serve, or what the product is.

Integrated DVD/receivers are about convenience. You may have never heard of a DVD portion blanking out, but friends of mine who've worked in AV sales see defective products come back to their stores all the time, many of which are integrated components that have lost one function. An integrated component greatly your chances of having to send the entire unit back with a defect, and as such they do not recommended integrated combo components (particularly ones that combine a solid state component with something that has motors and moving parts that wear out) precisely because if one part breaks, you have to send back the whole thing. You mean you've never heard of a defective DVD player, or one that needs a firmware update, or receivers with unreliable power supply sections?

These drawbacks to integrated components are very much common sense based. If a transistor shorts out on an integrated receiver, then you lose your disc player as well when you send it back If the drawer can no longer open on the DVD part of an integrated receiver, then you can't listen to music while the thing's in the shop. If either of these problems occur with separate components, then you retain functionality of part of your system while that component is out of commission, and you retain the option to upgrade one component rather than having to upgrade both. To me THAT'S common sense.

I don't know what planet you've been reading this board from, but people who frequent the forum are very much concerned about sound quality. They discuss the technical details because they know how it potentially impacts on the sound quality.

If anything, you're falling prey to a common fallacy among a lot of the newbies that have come and gone through this forum over the years. They buy a system that they like and automatically presume that it is the best approach for everybody. You bought yourself an Orb system with an integrated receiver. You like the sound quality, so therefore people who made other decisions or have other opinions lack common sense and are only concerned with technical jibberish rather than sound quality. Pretty presumptuous there. It's fine to enjoy your system, but let's not get carried away with all these other tangents and assumptions about other people.

BTW, the original poster already has a DVD player, so why are you recommending that he go with an integrated receiver? Because two DVD players are better than one? Or because you already own one?

[topspeed]

No one for the most part who even comments on sound quality bothers to refer to what music they're exactly talking about which is a major problem.

Huh? You need to read more. Music preference is asked all the time and you're right, it should be. However, a great speaker should be just as adept at Pink Floyd as Berloiz, don't you agree?

What I'm talking about is talking plain simple English which alot of people here do not seem capable of doing.

Maybe you've been hanging out with the dinosaur rock guys too much and expect Queen's English ? Audio enthusiasts have, for better or for worse, their own lingo. Because music is so emotional, manytimes it is difficult to convey the intention without delving into overwrought and wildly romantic descriptors that have absolutely no relation to what is in technical terms, a bunch of math.

To me if you can get a system you're happy with, why spend thousands of dollars keep trying to make it better and better ad infinitum unless the technology demands it.

There isn't a person alive that would disagree with you on the first part. Who wouldn't want the best possible sound at the lowest possible expenditure? The second part is trickier because you have to understand the psyche of some audiophiles. Many are what I call "gear geeks" who are actually more interested in the cause rather than the effect. These folks buy and sell equipment all the time, always searching for their version of the holy grail of perfect sound reproduction. Of course, this doesn't exist. Different ears, different perceptions, different acoustics et. al conspire to make this goal unobtainable.

So why bother?

It's a hobby, friend. We are all on this board because we like audio. Listening to it, building it, tweaking it, recording it, fawning over it, buying it, selling it, and ranting about it. I'm perfectly content with my rig right now and am convinced that for my preferences, it is the best obtainable for the price.

That said, I'm still going to go buy some ARC tubes someday

BTW, to think that you have golden ears and therefore everyone should like what you like is being pretty presumptuous, don't you think? Also, calling established regulars here "retards" isn't going to help your cause. In fact, such childish slander only slights any useful information you may have and casts serious doubt on your claims. Just a thought...

[hershon]

Good points but I don't agree with you on the Pink Floyd Berloiz point unless a person wants to hear both classical music and rock music. If all I listen to is say rock music then I'd gladly pay less for a system that plays rock great and classical music soso then one that plays them both great. I mainly invest my money on the latest remastered upgrade of 60/70's rock groups and blues stuff then listen to the crap put out today. To be honest, my friends and associates are reasonably articulate people with normal social lives who can express their tastes in plain simple English. As I said, alot of people here can not.

Huh? You need to read more. Music preference is asked all the time and you're right, it should be. However, a great speaker should be just as adept at Pink Floyd as Berloiz, don't you agree?

Maybe you've been hanging out with the dinosaur rock guys too much and expect Queen's English ? Audio enthusiasts have, for better or for worse, their own lingo. Because music is so emotional, manytimes it is difficult to convey the intention without delving into overwrought and wildly romantic descriptors that have absolutely no relation to what is in technical terms, a bunch of math.
There isn't a person alive that would disagree with you on the first part. Who wouldn't want the best possible sound at the lowest possible expenditure? The second part is trickier because you have to understand the psyche of some audiophiles. Many are what I call "gear geeks" who are actually more interested in the cause rather than the effect. These folks buy and sell equipment all the time, always searching for their version of the holy grail of perfect sound reproduction. Of course, this doesn't exist. Different ears, different perceptions, different acoustics et. al conspire to make this goal unobtainable.

So why bother?

It's a hobby, friend. We are all on this board because we like audio. Listening to it, building it, tweaking it, recording it, fawning over it, buying it, selling it, and ranting about it. I'm perfectly content with my rig right now and am convinced that for my preferences, it is the best obtainable for the price.

That said, I'm still going to go buy some ARC tubes someday

[Geoffcin]

Good points but I don't agree with you on the Pink Floyd Berloiz point unless a person wants to hear both classical music and rock music. If all I listen to is say rock music then I'd gladly pay less for a system that plays rock great and classical music soso then one that plays them both great. I mainly invest my money on the latest remastered upgrade of 60/70's rock groups and blues stuff then listen to the crap put out today. To be honest, my friends and associates are reasonably articulate people with normal social lives who can express their tastes in plain simple English. As I said, alot of people here can not.

And I've been slowly replacing my old vinyl with DVD-Audio as they become available. Classic rock can be a revelation with a quality system, and I would strongly DISAGREE that your not going to hear a difference between a lower quality vs. high quality system with rock.

Not enough simple English eh? I've been following this post and IMHO most people posting here have been quite easy to understand, and present very lucid arguments.

I agree wholeheartedly with Topspeed on this;

Cambridge Soundworks is really hard to be in the "bang for buck" category. You also get a 10 year warrantee from a company that's likely to be in business far longer than that. If you want to save even MORE money, then shop from them on EBAY for the returned stuff. Still have the same warrantee @ 40% off of retail!

Orb I know nothing about, but if they are another "lifestyles" clone then I choose to remain ignorant happily.

[Woochifer]

You actually make some good points here. First off, I must have misread the part about him already having a DVD player- my fault on that one. I still don't consider something Home theater in a box if they're two seperate components manufactured by different entities.

Well, that's fine, but keep in mind that a lot of component manufacturers outsource their speaker manufacturing, so it's not like the whole system is put together and designed by the same entity.

Orb (they ought to put me on the payroll for this) sells the receiver as an option- people don't have to buy it, mainly for the convenience of their customers. They feel this receiver compliments their speakers and I totally agree with them. I admit there is always a chance the DVD part of the receiver could get broken but I think the odds are pretty low, that's all I'm saying.

It complements the speakers because it's most similar to the HTIB approach, which sells convenience and design compatibility as the strong points. Orb's website keeps dropping references to some "famous $2,500-$3,500" systems, which we all know is code for the Bose Lifestyle series. THAT is what Orb is competing with (and IMO, it's not that hard to compete there if you're talking about sound quality). Their spherical speaker design is virtually a clone of the Gallo Acoustics Micros, which also competes with the Bose Lifestyle systems, but keeps their products up in that higher price range.

As far as me thinking that if I say something is good, everybody who hears it will think the same, no appologies there, I am a bit arrogant, as I said I produced a bunch of albums with name 60's English rock legends who still have their chops and my ears are great and everyone I've ever encountered would agree on that. Hey if I heard your system or someone elses, maybe I would say its better, I don't know.

The point that you're missing is that not everybody shares your preferences. It doesn't matter how good your hearing is, or what rocks bands you might have produced. It's inevitable that someone else with perhaps equally good hearing will totally disagree with your preferences. It would be like presuming that just because you think you're smart, that everybody who's as smart as you should share your political or religious beliefs.

Like I said from the get go, I've yet to hear a sub-$1,000 all-in-one speaker package that even comes close to resolving the typical audio problems with these kinds of small sub/sat systems -- i.e. the audible dropoff in the lower midrange, the poor integration between the low frequencies and midrange, the subwoofers that play notes well into the midrange and give away the location, the severe roll off in the highs with one-way satellite designs, etc. If the Orbs figured out a way to get around these audible problems, then that would be a first. Even the Gallos that the Orbs are clearly copying don't get around these issues.

I just would not say your system is better without having listened to it based on technical specs though which is my whole point and problem with alot of people on this board. I've hardly seen anything stating about people liking something based on sound quality and particularly what sound quality they're talking about. I play alot of classic rock and blues and base my opinons of how that type of music sounds on my speakers. Perhaps if I played classical music it wouldn't sound as good. No one for the most part who even comments on sound quality bothers to refer to what music they're exactly talking about which is a major problem. Maybe a system sounds great playing classical music but the same system won't sound so great playing rock music. What I'm talking about is talking plain simple English which alot of people here do not seem capable of doing.

I still have no idea how you get that impression. People talk about sound quality all the time, and in great detail. What you might mistake for technical jibberish is often very valid explanation for approaches that should be taken to improve the bottomline sound quality. When someone wants to upgrade their subwoofer, I will bring up the issue of room acoustics and standing waves, and tell them that if those issues aren't accounted for then just about any subwoofer they buy will have similar problems. High technical topic, but absolutely essential to understand if you want to maximize the quality of the bass that you hear in your room.

Not everything in audio is as simple as telling somebody that this piece of equipment is the best just because. More often than not, what I find lacking is not the discussion of the equipment, but the discussion of how to properly use it. You can find thread after thread of people, especially newbies, arguing over which $500 receiver sounds best, or which $1,000 bookshelf monitor is superior. But, the most useful information on this (or any other) forum is the discussion of how to properly setup the equipment, and why you should take certain approaches in the calibration. Most of the regulars on this board get that, and you can't really get into these discussions without learning some of the technical details. It's fine to tell someone that a certain speaker kicks butt with hip hop, but how do you make that relevant to someone who has a completely different room setup, different music tastes, etc.? What you hear in one room might give you a completely different impression if you move it next door.

Don't get me wrong, I'm on here because a couple of people have offered me great invaluable help which I totally appreciate. But others sound like they've never had a woman in their life! To me if you can get a system you're happy with, why spend thousands of dollars keep trying to make it better and better ad infinitum unless the technology demands it.

Believe me, most of us on this board are spoken for. Do a word search for WAF (wife acceptance factor) and you'll see what I mean.

I got by with the same system that I bought in college for 16 years. Music is good music no matter what kind of system you're using. When I made the decision to build a home theater system, I allocated my original budget, prioritized my purchases, did a ton of listening, and went with the components that best suited my preferences. Those choices were what best fit my goals and objectives. Are they suitable for everyone? Hardly, and I frequently make recommendations that are different from what I own. A lot of others take a similar approach.