New Receiver: Yamaha or Denon?

[AZHT]

I have a Denon AVR-2800 and want to upgrade it. Using Paradigm Monitor 9MkII as mains. Would a Yamaha HTR-5790 (supposedly same as RX-V1400) or Denon 3805 be a better match? I can get a really good deal on the Yamaha.

[JSE]

I have a Denon AVR-2800 and want to upgrade it. Using Paradigm Monitor 9MkII as mains. Would a Yamaha HTR-5790 (supposedly same as RX-V1400) or Denon 3805 be a better match? I can get a really good deal on the Yamaha.

Wow, if the 5790 is the RX-V1400 equiv, then it's really going to be up to which one you prefer. Listen to them and see. One thing, the RX-V2400 is really the equivalent of the 3805, not the 1400/5790. However the difference between the 1400 and 2400 in minor.

Also, I have the RX-V1400 and could not justify moving to a Denon 3805. The differences are small and the 1400 can be had for almost half the price. I am extremly happy with the RX-V1400.

JSE

[Woochifer]

The only real difference with the receivers you're considering versus your 2800 is the acoustic room calibration function that comes with those models. You're getting only a minor upgrade in the amplification, and the rest of the improvements are convenience features like component video switching and multiroom amplification. If this is worthwhile to you, then by all means go for it, but IMO the receiver that you already got is more than sufficient to drive your speakers. If you choose to get a new receiver, it will basically be for the automatic room calibration, the convenience features, and the more advanced digital decoding. How much better those receivers will drive your speakers will probably make an inconsequential difference, because the Paradigm Monitor series is not especially straining on amps. However, you might find that the calibration feature is essential, especially if you have odd room acoustics and an asymmetrical speaker setup. Whether it's worth all that cash is up to you.

Between the Yamaha and the Denon, on paper at least I'm not sold that the 3805 is worth $400 more than the 1400. I've only briefly tried out the 1400 and have yet to see the 3805 so I can't tell you anything definitive about either one. After trying them out for yourself, you might come to a different conclusion.

If you wind up opting for the HTR-5790 (haven't seen it in stores yet), keep in mind that Yamaha has previously removed a feature or two from the HTR versions of their midlevel receivers. Make sure that the unit you buy has two things -- 1) the YPAO acoustic room calibration feature; and 2) preouts for all channels (the previous HTR-5590 inexplicably did not include them, even though the equivalent RX-V1300 and lower priced HTR-5660 DID include them).

[JSE]

Wooch makes some good points and I will add this. If you are just looking for "better" power to drive your speakers and if your receiver has pre-outs, you might want to consider adding a 2 to 5 channel amp to your receiver. There are some great deals on the used market and their are some pretty affordable new amps out there as well. Might look at Outlaw, NAD, Rotel, etc.

Just a thought.

JSE

[nusiclover]

ill second that JSE/Wooch
however, as far as the room calibration, i can say that it really isnt all that its hyped to be. you are far better getting a separate calibrating device, or using your ears. i would definitely not get the yamaha based on this so-so feature. as far as yamaha vs denon go, well both get raved and ranted on about equally, even if you look at "what hifi" reviews you will find they both fair pretty good-very good. you are already familiar with denon sound. if the yammie is a very very better deal, then that could be fun just to try some new sound. (this makes replaying old cds and dvds a lot of fun). Otherwise id agree that you should consider adding a power amp.

[kpzbee]

From what I've read & heard, the YPAO feature does more than what your saying. There is an earlier post on here that goes into depth about this feature more. I'm waitng for the new RX-V750 just for this feature. I feel it's worth it.

[JSE]

ill second that JSE/Wooch
however, as far as the room calibration, i can say that it really isnt all that its hyped to be. you are far better getting a separate calibrating device, or using your ears. i would definitely not get the yamaha based on this so-so feature. as far as yamaha vs denon go, well both get raved and ranted on about equally, even if you look at "what hifi" reviews you will find they both fair pretty good-very good. you are already familiar with denon sound. if the yammie is a very very better deal, then that could be fun just to try some new sound. (this makes replaying old cds and dvds a lot of fun). Otherwise id agree that you should consider adding a power amp.

Every room is different but the YPAO can make a huge difference. I have run the YPOA and used an SPL meter and I could not really tell the difference. To me this is a good thing. It means at least in my room, the YPAO does just as good of a job as the SPL meter. Remember, every system and every room is different so your mileage may vary. But, overall I would say YPOA is a very usefull feature for most systems. I can tell you this, I first manually calibrated my system with my ears on purpose. I thought it sounded really good. Man, was I wrong. The YPAO made a huge difference.

I bet you can reasonaby assume the Denon's version of YPAO would be very competitive with Yamaha's.

JSE

[AZHT]

Thanks for all the info! I can get the Yamaha for just over $500, so was wondering if the newer features it has over my AVR-2800 would be worth it. Does Yamaha have a brighter sound then Denon?

[Woochifer]

ill second that JSE/Wooch
however, as far as the room calibration, i can say that it really isnt all that its hyped to be. you are far better getting a separate calibrating device, or using your ears. i would definitely not get the yamaha based on this so-so feature. as far as yamaha vs denon go, well both get raved and ranted on about equally, even if you look at "what hifi" reviews you will find they both fair pretty good-very good. you are already familiar with denon sound. if the yammie is a very very better deal, then that could be fun just to try some new sound. (this makes replaying old cds and dvds a lot of fun). Otherwise id agree that you should consider adding a power amp.

First off, there's no calibration device out there that can duplicate what the YPAO and equivalent function on the Denon do. Why? Because neither receiver has any kind of premain input for the main channels by which you can insert an external processing device. The YPAO provides three parametric filters for EACH channel and adjusts them separately, something that cannot be done with a separate device on that receiver. The only reason you can use a parametric equalizer with a subwoofer is because the sub has its own amp, which gives the equalizer a separate signal path to process.

Second, the presence of the YPAO does not mean that you can no longer make the other system adjustments. Surround levels, delay timing, etc. can all be changed manually.

Third, it's NOT better to make your adjustments by ear. Your ear is not sensitive enough and auditory memory is insufficient to adjust levels for five, six, or seven speakers. You can try, but a sound level meter will almost always give you the best results from the outset. No reason why the YPAO or comparable room calibration function can't give you equal precision (my understanding is that a lot of the misreadings with the YPAO come from noise in the room -- you have to have as silent a room as possible when the calibrations are done). You can use the measured results as a point of reference and then make adjustments to suit your preferences, but going by ear alone is insufficient to establish that reference point.

You're welcome to say that the room calibration feature isn't all it's hyped up to be, that's your opinion, but there's no factual basis to say that the functionality can be duplicated with an add on device, or that it's better to go by ear.

[nusiclover]

so if you had an SPL meter, would you need a YPAO. i dont own this feature, but i have heard some good complaints that state it is not as accurate as a meter. maybe not though. i was really just saying that i dont think one should measure a receiver on this feature. in the way that people do, i think it is overated.

[nusiclover]

perhaps the inaccuracy is based on additional room noice. or even bad mics. i dont have it, but i assume that since high end equipment doenst either, then is it really that necessary or is it a modern sale gimmick? after all, yamaha and DSP were.or maybe not, of course its preferance, it all is. these are just my opinions.

[Woochifer]

so if you had an SPL meter, would you need a YPAO. i dont own this feature, but i have heard some good complaints that state it is not as accurate as a meter. maybe not though. i was really just saying that i dont think one should measure a receiver on this feature. in the way that people do, i think it is overated.

With a home theater receiver, the SPL meter is used for two main purposes -- adjusting the levels on the speakers and calibrating the subwoofer with an external parametric equalizer. The SPL meter can duplicate the level adjustment function of the YPAO, but it CANNOT in ANY way duplicate the parametric filtering that the YPAO does through the seven main channels. NO home theater receivers I'm aware of can accept external processors for all seven channels. And in order to duplicate the parametric filtering on the YPAO, you would need seven premain inputs PLUS enough parametric equalizers to handle all seven channels. Currently, that cannot be done by any home theater receiver on the market.

In a room with bad acoustics, parametric equalization can make a huge difference by eliminating the largest frequency peaks. My understanding is that the YPAO can do these adjustments for all seven channels in about 10 minutes. When I did the parametric filtering for my subwoofer using a SPL meter, it took me 1 1/2 hours. Even presuming that the receiver can take a premain input (and none of the receivers on the market have premain inputs for all seven channels), would you want to potentially spend 1 1/2 hours for EACH channel manually setting a parametric equalizer when something like the YPAO can do it for you in 10 minutes?

IMO, the measure of how much of a factor anyone should regard a single feature is in the degree to which it improves sound quality. In general, the differences between midlevel receivers are relatively narrow. The differences between speakers and rooms are much wider. Acoustic room calibration systems like the YPAO compensate for these wide differences. That's why receiver manufacturers are in this mad dash to incorporate them into their newer models. Previously, in A/B comparisons the audible differences were subtle to nonexistent. But, with a parametric room calibration, the differences can be very noticeable.(Whether or not it's better is entirely subjective) By this time next year, just about every manufacturer will likely have their own variation of this feature available. To drag their heels potentially means losing market share.

perhaps the inaccuracy is based on additional room noice. or even bad mics. i dont have it, but i assume that since high end equipment doenst either, then is it really that necessary or is it a modern sale gimmick? after all, yamaha and DSP were.or maybe not, of course its preferance, it all is. these are just my opinions.

You don't have it because up until Pioneer began introducing their acoustic calibration feature into their Elite receivers a couple of years ago, it was ONLY high end processors like Lexicon, TAG McLaren, and Theta that incorporated any kind of functionality to compensate for room acoustics. It's no gimmick because it works and is based on a very solid premise -- that addressing the effects of room acoustics will audibly improve sound quality. Pioneer and Yamaha have now migrated this type of functionality under the $500 price point. Other manufacturers will ignore this trend at their own peril.

[JSE]

perhaps the inaccuracy is based on additional room noice. or even bad mics. i dont have it, but i assume that since high end equipment doenst either, then is it really that necessary or is it a modern sale gimmick? after all, yamaha and DSP were.or maybe not, of course its preferance, it all is. these are just my opinions.

I'm not trying to be rude, but how can you comment on the ability and performance of YPAO if you don't have it and have never used it?

I have it, and it's works great.

JSE

[kpzbee]

With a home theater receiver, the SPL meter is used for two main purposes -- adjusting the levels on the speakers and calibrating the subwoofer with an external parametric equalizer. The SPL meter can duplicate the level adjustment function of the YPAO, but it CANNOT in ANY way duplicate the parametric filtering that the YPAO does through the seven main channels. NO home theater receivers I'm aware of can accept external processors for all seven channels. And in order to duplicate the parametric filtering on the YPAO, you would need seven premain inputs PLUS enough parametric equalizers to handle all seven channels. Currently, that cannot be done by any home theater receiver on the market.

In a room with bad acoustics, parametric equalization can make a huge difference by eliminating the largest frequency peaks. My understanding is that the YPAO can do these adjustments for all seven channels in about 10 minutes. When I did the parametric filtering for my subwoofer using a SPL meter, it took me 1 1/2 hours. Even presuming that the receiver can take a premain input (and none of the receivers on the market have premain inputs for all seven channels), would you want to potentially spend 1 1/2 hours for EACH channel manually setting a parametric equalizer when something like the YPAO can do it for you in 10 minutes?

IMO, the measure of how much of a factor anyone should regard a single feature is in the degree to which it improves sound quality. In general, the differences between midlevel receivers are relatively narrow. The differences between speakers and rooms are much wider. Acoustic room calibration systems like the YPAO compensate for these wide differences. That's why receiver manufacturers are in this mad dash to incorporate them into their newer models. Previously, in A/B comparisons the audible differences were subtle to nonexistent. But, with a parametric room calibration, the differences can be very noticeable.(Whether or not it's better is entirely subjective) By this time next year, just about every manufacturer will likely have their own variation of this feature available. To drag their heels potentially means losing market share.



You don't have it because up until Pioneer began introducing their acoustic calibration feature into their Elite receivers a couple of years ago, it was ONLY high end processors like Lexicon, TAG McLaren, and Theta that incorporated any kind of functionality to compensate for room acoustics. It's no gimmick because it works and is based on a very solid premise -- that addressing the effects of room acoustics will audibly improve sound quality. Pioneer and Yamaha have now migrated this type of functionality under the $500 price point. Other manufacturers will ignore this trend at their own peril.

Thank you for doing that super explanation of YPAO. I can't wait to get mine!

[wje]

I have the new Yamaha HTR-5760. Very nice receiver. Two thumbs up!!

Other gear I've owned in the past: Denon 1802, 1803, JVC 8000VBK, Sony 4ES, H/K AVR-7200.

[kexodusc]

I gotta agree with Wooch...YPAO does a helluva lot more than a knowledgeable guy and a 100 dollar SPL meter could ever do as cheaply and as fast as YPAO does it. I know my old Yammie and Marantz receivers inside out, they were calibrated as good as it was going to get, delays were right, levels set with the SPL meter, etc...
When I borrowed my bro's 1400 for 2 weeks, the difference was incredibly significant. Of particular note, 1 side of my odd shaped room generally made loud treble sounds a bit too emphasized and distracting (ie: glass shattering, symbals) on the left hand side. I could never, through any level adjustments, minor sound treatments, etc, eliminate this without creating some problems somewhere else. YPAO did...what's more I never, ever in the 2 weeks had the urge to tweak a setting as I often do depending on the source.
This feature alone, in my humble opinion, is worth at least $100 because it can do so much more than an SPL meter and manual setting tweaks can. This feature also ended my decade long brand loyalty to Marantz.
Read up on all the things YPAO can do, it ain't no SPL meter. It's also probably not worth $250 dollars by itself, though.
As for the HTR-5760 and 5790 models...there are some very, very minor differences between their RX-V cousins. They both have pre-outs and all the processing and sound quality of the RX-V's though...I'd say go for them if you can get a deal. The HTR-5750 and below don't have the pre-outs, though.
One last comment...don't Denon's new models (ie: avr-3805) have an equivalent to YPAO?
If so, that makes the decision much harder. That 3805 looks like one super receiver.

[omikey]

One last comment...don't Denon's new models (ie: avr-3805) have an equivalent to YPAO?
If so, that makes the decision much harder. That 3805 looks like one super receiver.

Kexodusc - yep, the Denon 3805 has the equivalent to YPAO built into
it.

I got my new 3805 last week IT IS S W E E T !!!!!!!!!!!

While I have not 'tuned' my system yet I am enjoying it AS IS !!!
So far the ONLY thing I've done was to connect the exsisting speakers to the 3805, pluged it in and turned it on. The system - out of the box - is increditable ..... sounds like a totally new system to me

I have the new speakers (arrived in the store Friday past) .... they are yet to be installed .. I have to run wires etc. I have to be out on business until week after next so it's gonna be a couple more weeks before I get any experience with this total system.

I am really looking forward to having it all installed and tuned. I changed my mind from a Denon 3803 to the 3805 just for this function. Since the Denon 3805 is a new model there was no markdown on it from the dealer. HOWEVER, since I bought a 5 speaker set at the same time, I did get a 10% markdown on the total package.

Since I haven't run this function yet, I can't really comment on how much change may result. However I do anticipate that it will be much improved over a wonderful sound that I already have. One of the reasons that I'm anticipating an improvement has to do with a lot of the comments posted on this very subject.

Room accoustics, I would never presume that I could tun a system the way that this function built into the system can .... EVEN if the system had the capability to allow for it (which it doesn't). I have some higher freqs that have sorta strong reflections on one side of the room. I am counting on this function to fix that for me, and in general set all of the freq responses for all 6 channels for me :-) and do it in about 15 minutes totat. Plus my learning cure on how to set it up.

NOW THEN, once done, I'll move the setup mike over to one listening postion, perform the function. Then listen from various positions, move the mike, re-run the function ..... listen from various positions again, and again. I anticipate that I'll do this about 7 or 8 times over the course of about a week. After which time I am sure that I'll have the most optimal tunning that I can get for the two primary listening postions.

You would do this if you had to MANUALLY tune each channel (at about 1.5 hour/channels).

[AZHT]

So is the Denon 3805 worth the extra dollars? I can get the Yamaha HTR-5790 for $500 and the Denon 3805 for $1000. They both seem to have some great features and capabilities. Both are improvements from my current Denon 2800.

[omikey]

So is the Denon 3805 worth the extra dollars? I can get the Yamaha HTR-5790 for $500 and the Denon 3805 for $1000. They both seem to have some great features and capabilities. Both are improvements from my current Denon 2800.

You could start a flame war with that question

I'll answer it with a party line, to some it will be, to others it will not, for you - only you can be the judge of that.

To me, yes (even though I haven't used that feature as of yet) I'm sure that it will be. But not just because of this function, since Yammie also has this function ..... so there was more to it than just asking if the price diff between Yammie and Denon was worth it.

I didn't buy the Denon only for this function, I bought the 3805 over the 3803 because of this function.

I went out and listened to several AVRs, JVC, HK, Denon and Yammie.
I couldn't listen to all of them against the same speakers, and/or in the same room .... so there you have that story again.

However I did listen to the Denon and Yammie in the same room, same soundtracks, same speakers (the ones I was interested in BAs) and prefered what to me was a softer deeper tone produced by the Denon.

So for me it was a matter of picking that manufacture first, then the model that had the tuning function ...... which took me to the 3805.

[kexodusc]

AZHT: Ooohh...I don't know if if the Denon is worth TWICE the price of the 5790. I think for that kind of money you could get the 5760 and get a sweet separate power amp, or upgrade somewhere else. Feature wise, what do you need on the 3805 (assuming you really want the onboard calibration tool/YPAO) that isn't on the yamaha 5790? The 5760?

Me, I went with an RX-V1400 over the Denon 3803 because the Yamaha seemed to sound a bit softer, warmer, and had a few more value added features. Not exactly apples to apples though.

[datarush]

I just got a 5790 set up but haven't really stressed it yet. I plan on a new thread once I get it working on all thrusters. So far it is promising, but I must say that the instructions for onscreen menus and controlling 3rd party components must've been translated first to Russian and then English from the Japanese? as they are as obscure as hell. I mean really they could've done better. That plus those operations aren't primay functions of any of the remotes buttons make it harder than it should.
It certainly appears well built. I studied/compared it with the RX-V1400 and V2400 and it matches specs with the 1400. The backs are identical far as I can tell. I'm not sure which aesthetic I like best; the 5790 is more upfront while the 1400 has elegance. At my local Best Buy the 5790 is their top dog while Good Guys have the 1400 and 2400. I bought mine elsewhere.

[douglasbjordan]

Looks like the Denon 2805 (dunno how long it's been out) also has the autocalibration feature. Its MSRP is $900.

[kexodusc]

Looks like the Denon 2805 (dunno how long it's been out) also has the autocalibration feature. Its MSRP is $900.

The 2805 I saw the other day had to have a $58 dollar special microphone purchased separately for it to work according to my retailer, can anyone verify this? $60 bucks for a cheap mic? Why wouldn't any work?

[AZHT]

I think it says on Denon's website that the 2805 comes with the mic. I guess they got enough flack for not including one in the 3805. Looks like a solid unit.

[douglasbjordan]

According to the 2805 instruction book on Denon's site, it comes with an omnidirectional microphone. However, the book also contains instructions on how to use any microphone you want to perform the autosetup.