New Receiver: Yamaha or Denon?

[AZHT]

Thanks for all the info! I can get the Yamaha for just over $500, so was wondering if the newer features it has over my AVR-2800 would be worth it. Does Yamaha have a brighter sound then Denon?

[nusiclover]

so if you had an SPL meter, would you need a YPAO. i dont own this feature, but i have heard some good complaints that state it is not as accurate as a meter. maybe not though. i was really just saying that i dont think one should measure a receiver on this feature. in the way that people do, i think it is overated.

[nusiclover]

perhaps the inaccuracy is based on additional room noice. or even bad mics. i dont have it, but i assume that since high end equipment doenst either, then is it really that necessary or is it a modern sale gimmick? after all, yamaha and DSP were.or maybe not, of course its preferance, it all is. these are just my opinions.

[JSE]

perhaps the inaccuracy is based on additional room noice. or even bad mics. i dont have it, but i assume that since high end equipment doenst either, then is it really that necessary or is it a modern sale gimmick? after all, yamaha and DSP were.or maybe not, of course its preferance, it all is. these are just my opinions.

I'm not trying to be rude, but how can you comment on the ability and performance of YPAO if you don't have it and have never used it?

I have it, and it's works great.

JSE

[Woochifer]

so if you had an SPL meter, would you need a YPAO. i dont own this feature, but i have heard some good complaints that state it is not as accurate as a meter. maybe not though. i was really just saying that i dont think one should measure a receiver on this feature. in the way that people do, i think it is overated.

With a home theater receiver, the SPL meter is used for two main purposes -- adjusting the levels on the speakers and calibrating the subwoofer with an external parametric equalizer. The SPL meter can duplicate the level adjustment function of the YPAO, but it CANNOT in ANY way duplicate the parametric filtering that the YPAO does through the seven main channels. NO home theater receivers I'm aware of can accept external processors for all seven channels. And in order to duplicate the parametric filtering on the YPAO, you would need seven premain inputs PLUS enough parametric equalizers to handle all seven channels. Currently, that cannot be done by any home theater receiver on the market.

In a room with bad acoustics, parametric equalization can make a huge difference by eliminating the largest frequency peaks. My understanding is that the YPAO can do these adjustments for all seven channels in about 10 minutes. When I did the parametric filtering for my subwoofer using a SPL meter, it took me 1 1/2 hours. Even presuming that the receiver can take a premain input (and none of the receivers on the market have premain inputs for all seven channels), would you want to potentially spend 1 1/2 hours for EACH channel manually setting a parametric equalizer when something like the YPAO can do it for you in 10 minutes?

IMO, the measure of how much of a factor anyone should regard a single feature is in the degree to which it improves sound quality. In general, the differences between midlevel receivers are relatively narrow. The differences between speakers and rooms are much wider. Acoustic room calibration systems like the YPAO compensate for these wide differences. That's why receiver manufacturers are in this mad dash to incorporate them into their newer models. Previously, in A/B comparisons the audible differences were subtle to nonexistent. But, with a parametric room calibration, the differences can be very noticeable.(Whether or not it's better is entirely subjective) By this time next year, just about every manufacturer will likely have their own variation of this feature available. To drag their heels potentially means losing market share.

perhaps the inaccuracy is based on additional room noice. or even bad mics. i dont have it, but i assume that since high end equipment doenst either, then is it really that necessary or is it a modern sale gimmick? after all, yamaha and DSP were.or maybe not, of course its preferance, it all is. these are just my opinions.

You don't have it because up until Pioneer began introducing their acoustic calibration feature into their Elite receivers a couple of years ago, it was ONLY high end processors like Lexicon, TAG McLaren, and Theta that incorporated any kind of functionality to compensate for room acoustics. It's no gimmick because it works and is based on a very solid premise -- that addressing the effects of room acoustics will audibly improve sound quality. Pioneer and Yamaha have now migrated this type of functionality under the $500 price point. Other manufacturers will ignore this trend at their own peril.

[kpzbee]

With a home theater receiver, the SPL meter is used for two main purposes -- adjusting the levels on the speakers and calibrating the subwoofer with an external parametric equalizer. The SPL meter can duplicate the level adjustment function of the YPAO, but it CANNOT in ANY way duplicate the parametric filtering that the YPAO does through the seven main channels. NO home theater receivers I'm aware of can accept external processors for all seven channels. And in order to duplicate the parametric filtering on the YPAO, you would need seven premain inputs PLUS enough parametric equalizers to handle all seven channels. Currently, that cannot be done by any home theater receiver on the market.

In a room with bad acoustics, parametric equalization can make a huge difference by eliminating the largest frequency peaks. My understanding is that the YPAO can do these adjustments for all seven channels in about 10 minutes. When I did the parametric filtering for my subwoofer using a SPL meter, it took me 1 1/2 hours. Even presuming that the receiver can take a premain input (and none of the receivers on the market have premain inputs for all seven channels), would you want to potentially spend 1 1/2 hours for EACH channel manually setting a parametric equalizer when something like the YPAO can do it for you in 10 minutes?

IMO, the measure of how much of a factor anyone should regard a single feature is in the degree to which it improves sound quality. In general, the differences between midlevel receivers are relatively narrow. The differences between speakers and rooms are much wider. Acoustic room calibration systems like the YPAO compensate for these wide differences. That's why receiver manufacturers are in this mad dash to incorporate them into their newer models. Previously, in A/B comparisons the audible differences were subtle to nonexistent. But, with a parametric room calibration, the differences can be very noticeable.(Whether or not it's better is entirely subjective) By this time next year, just about every manufacturer will likely have their own variation of this feature available. To drag their heels potentially means losing market share.



You don't have it because up until Pioneer began introducing their acoustic calibration feature into their Elite receivers a couple of years ago, it was ONLY high end processors like Lexicon, TAG McLaren, and Theta that incorporated any kind of functionality to compensate for room acoustics. It's no gimmick because it works and is based on a very solid premise -- that addressing the effects of room acoustics will audibly improve sound quality. Pioneer and Yamaha have now migrated this type of functionality under the $500 price point. Other manufacturers will ignore this trend at their own peril.

Thank you for doing that super explanation of YPAO. I can't wait to get mine!

[wje]

I have the new Yamaha HTR-5760. Very nice receiver. Two thumbs up!!

Other gear I've owned in the past: Denon 1802, 1803, JVC 8000VBK, Sony 4ES, H/K AVR-7200.

[kexodusc]

I gotta agree with Wooch...YPAO does a helluva lot more than a knowledgeable guy and a 100 dollar SPL meter could ever do as cheaply and as fast as YPAO does it. I know my old Yammie and Marantz receivers inside out, they were calibrated as good as it was going to get, delays were right, levels set with the SPL meter, etc...
When I borrowed my bro's 1400 for 2 weeks, the difference was incredibly significant. Of particular note, 1 side of my odd shaped room generally made loud treble sounds a bit too emphasized and distracting (ie: glass shattering, symbals) on the left hand side. I could never, through any level adjustments, minor sound treatments, etc, eliminate this without creating some problems somewhere else. YPAO did...what's more I never, ever in the 2 weeks had the urge to tweak a setting as I often do depending on the source.
This feature alone, in my humble opinion, is worth at least $100 because it can do so much more than an SPL meter and manual setting tweaks can. This feature also ended my decade long brand loyalty to Marantz.
Read up on all the things YPAO can do, it ain't no SPL meter. It's also probably not worth $250 dollars by itself, though.
As for the HTR-5760 and 5790 models...there are some very, very minor differences between their RX-V cousins. They both have pre-outs and all the processing and sound quality of the RX-V's though...I'd say go for them if you can get a deal. The HTR-5750 and below don't have the pre-outs, though.
One last comment...don't Denon's new models (ie: avr-3805) have an equivalent to YPAO?
If so, that makes the decision much harder. That 3805 looks like one super receiver.

[omikey]

One last comment...don't Denon's new models (ie: avr-3805) have an equivalent to YPAO?
If so, that makes the decision much harder. That 3805 looks like one super receiver.

Kexodusc - yep, the Denon 3805 has the equivalent to YPAO built into
it.

I got my new 3805 last week IT IS S W E E T !!!!!!!!!!!

While I have not 'tuned' my system yet I am enjoying it AS IS !!!
So far the ONLY thing I've done was to connect the exsisting speakers to the 3805, pluged it in and turned it on. The system - out of the box - is increditable ..... sounds like a totally new system to me

I have the new speakers (arrived in the store Friday past) .... they are yet to be installed .. I have to run wires etc. I have to be out on business until week after next so it's gonna be a couple more weeks before I get any experience with this total system.

I am really looking forward to having it all installed and tuned. I changed my mind from a Denon 3803 to the 3805 just for this function. Since the Denon 3805 is a new model there was no markdown on it from the dealer. HOWEVER, since I bought a 5 speaker set at the same time, I did get a 10% markdown on the total package.

Since I haven't run this function yet, I can't really comment on how much change may result. However I do anticipate that it will be much improved over a wonderful sound that I already have. One of the reasons that I'm anticipating an improvement has to do with a lot of the comments posted on this very subject.

Room accoustics, I would never presume that I could tun a system the way that this function built into the system can .... EVEN if the system had the capability to allow for it (which it doesn't). I have some higher freqs that have sorta strong reflections on one side of the room. I am counting on this function to fix that for me, and in general set all of the freq responses for all 6 channels for me :-) and do it in about 15 minutes totat. Plus my learning cure on how to set it up.

NOW THEN, once done, I'll move the setup mike over to one listening postion, perform the function. Then listen from various positions, move the mike, re-run the function ..... listen from various positions again, and again. I anticipate that I'll do this about 7 or 8 times over the course of about a week. After which time I am sure that I'll have the most optimal tunning that I can get for the two primary listening postions.

You would do this if you had to MANUALLY tune each channel (at about 1.5 hour/channels).

[AZHT]

So is the Denon 3805 worth the extra dollars? I can get the Yamaha HTR-5790 for $500 and the Denon 3805 for $1000. They both seem to have some great features and capabilities. Both are improvements from my current Denon 2800.