New Receiver: Yamaha or Denon?

[nusiclover]

ill second that JSE/Wooch
however, as far as the room calibration, i can say that it really isnt all that its hyped to be. you are far better getting a separate calibrating device, or using your ears. i would definitely not get the yamaha based on this so-so feature. as far as yamaha vs denon go, well both get raved and ranted on about equally, even if you look at "what hifi" reviews you will find they both fair pretty good-very good. you are already familiar with denon sound. if the yammie is a very very better deal, then that could be fun just to try some new sound. (this makes replaying old cds and dvds a lot of fun). Otherwise id agree that you should consider adding a power amp.

[kpzbee]

From what I've read & heard, the YPAO feature does more than what your saying. There is an earlier post on here that goes into depth about this feature more. I'm waitng for the new RX-V750 just for this feature. I feel it's worth it.

[JSE]

ill second that JSE/Wooch
however, as far as the room calibration, i can say that it really isnt all that its hyped to be. you are far better getting a separate calibrating device, or using your ears. i would definitely not get the yamaha based on this so-so feature. as far as yamaha vs denon go, well both get raved and ranted on about equally, even if you look at "what hifi" reviews you will find they both fair pretty good-very good. you are already familiar with denon sound. if the yammie is a very very better deal, then that could be fun just to try some new sound. (this makes replaying old cds and dvds a lot of fun). Otherwise id agree that you should consider adding a power amp.

Every room is different but the YPAO can make a huge difference. I have run the YPOA and used an SPL meter and I could not really tell the difference. To me this is a good thing. It means at least in my room, the YPAO does just as good of a job as the SPL meter. Remember, every system and every room is different so your mileage may vary. But, overall I would say YPOA is a very usefull feature for most systems. I can tell you this, I first manually calibrated my system with my ears on purpose. I thought it sounded really good. Man, was I wrong. The YPAO made a huge difference.

I bet you can reasonaby assume the Denon's version of YPAO would be very competitive with Yamaha's.

JSE

[AZHT]

Thanks for all the info! I can get the Yamaha for just over $500, so was wondering if the newer features it has over my AVR-2800 would be worth it. Does Yamaha have a brighter sound then Denon?

[nusiclover]

so if you had an SPL meter, would you need a YPAO. i dont own this feature, but i have heard some good complaints that state it is not as accurate as a meter. maybe not though. i was really just saying that i dont think one should measure a receiver on this feature. in the way that people do, i think it is overated.

[nusiclover]

perhaps the inaccuracy is based on additional room noice. or even bad mics. i dont have it, but i assume that since high end equipment doenst either, then is it really that necessary or is it a modern sale gimmick? after all, yamaha and DSP were.or maybe not, of course its preferance, it all is. these are just my opinions.

[JSE]

perhaps the inaccuracy is based on additional room noice. or even bad mics. i dont have it, but i assume that since high end equipment doenst either, then is it really that necessary or is it a modern sale gimmick? after all, yamaha and DSP were.or maybe not, of course its preferance, it all is. these are just my opinions.

I'm not trying to be rude, but how can you comment on the ability and performance of YPAO if you don't have it and have never used it?

I have it, and it's works great.

JSE

[Woochifer]

so if you had an SPL meter, would you need a YPAO. i dont own this feature, but i have heard some good complaints that state it is not as accurate as a meter. maybe not though. i was really just saying that i dont think one should measure a receiver on this feature. in the way that people do, i think it is overated.

With a home theater receiver, the SPL meter is used for two main purposes -- adjusting the levels on the speakers and calibrating the subwoofer with an external parametric equalizer. The SPL meter can duplicate the level adjustment function of the YPAO, but it CANNOT in ANY way duplicate the parametric filtering that the YPAO does through the seven main channels. NO home theater receivers I'm aware of can accept external processors for all seven channels. And in order to duplicate the parametric filtering on the YPAO, you would need seven premain inputs PLUS enough parametric equalizers to handle all seven channels. Currently, that cannot be done by any home theater receiver on the market.

In a room with bad acoustics, parametric equalization can make a huge difference by eliminating the largest frequency peaks. My understanding is that the YPAO can do these adjustments for all seven channels in about 10 minutes. When I did the parametric filtering for my subwoofer using a SPL meter, it took me 1 1/2 hours. Even presuming that the receiver can take a premain input (and none of the receivers on the market have premain inputs for all seven channels), would you want to potentially spend 1 1/2 hours for EACH channel manually setting a parametric equalizer when something like the YPAO can do it for you in 10 minutes?

IMO, the measure of how much of a factor anyone should regard a single feature is in the degree to which it improves sound quality. In general, the differences between midlevel receivers are relatively narrow. The differences between speakers and rooms are much wider. Acoustic room calibration systems like the YPAO compensate for these wide differences. That's why receiver manufacturers are in this mad dash to incorporate them into their newer models. Previously, in A/B comparisons the audible differences were subtle to nonexistent. But, with a parametric room calibration, the differences can be very noticeable.(Whether or not it's better is entirely subjective) By this time next year, just about every manufacturer will likely have their own variation of this feature available. To drag their heels potentially means losing market share.

perhaps the inaccuracy is based on additional room noice. or even bad mics. i dont have it, but i assume that since high end equipment doenst either, then is it really that necessary or is it a modern sale gimmick? after all, yamaha and DSP were.or maybe not, of course its preferance, it all is. these are just my opinions.

You don't have it because up until Pioneer began introducing their acoustic calibration feature into their Elite receivers a couple of years ago, it was ONLY high end processors like Lexicon, TAG McLaren, and Theta that incorporated any kind of functionality to compensate for room acoustics. It's no gimmick because it works and is based on a very solid premise -- that addressing the effects of room acoustics will audibly improve sound quality. Pioneer and Yamaha have now migrated this type of functionality under the $500 price point. Other manufacturers will ignore this trend at their own peril.

[kpzbee]

With a home theater receiver, the SPL meter is used for two main purposes -- adjusting the levels on the speakers and calibrating the subwoofer with an external parametric equalizer. The SPL meter can duplicate the level adjustment function of the YPAO, but it CANNOT in ANY way duplicate the parametric filtering that the YPAO does through the seven main channels. NO home theater receivers I'm aware of can accept external processors for all seven channels. And in order to duplicate the parametric filtering on the YPAO, you would need seven premain inputs PLUS enough parametric equalizers to handle all seven channels. Currently, that cannot be done by any home theater receiver on the market.

In a room with bad acoustics, parametric equalization can make a huge difference by eliminating the largest frequency peaks. My understanding is that the YPAO can do these adjustments for all seven channels in about 10 minutes. When I did the parametric filtering for my subwoofer using a SPL meter, it took me 1 1/2 hours. Even presuming that the receiver can take a premain input (and none of the receivers on the market have premain inputs for all seven channels), would you want to potentially spend 1 1/2 hours for EACH channel manually setting a parametric equalizer when something like the YPAO can do it for you in 10 minutes?

IMO, the measure of how much of a factor anyone should regard a single feature is in the degree to which it improves sound quality. In general, the differences between midlevel receivers are relatively narrow. The differences between speakers and rooms are much wider. Acoustic room calibration systems like the YPAO compensate for these wide differences. That's why receiver manufacturers are in this mad dash to incorporate them into their newer models. Previously, in A/B comparisons the audible differences were subtle to nonexistent. But, with a parametric room calibration, the differences can be very noticeable.(Whether or not it's better is entirely subjective) By this time next year, just about every manufacturer will likely have their own variation of this feature available. To drag their heels potentially means losing market share.



You don't have it because up until Pioneer began introducing their acoustic calibration feature into their Elite receivers a couple of years ago, it was ONLY high end processors like Lexicon, TAG McLaren, and Theta that incorporated any kind of functionality to compensate for room acoustics. It's no gimmick because it works and is based on a very solid premise -- that addressing the effects of room acoustics will audibly improve sound quality. Pioneer and Yamaha have now migrated this type of functionality under the $500 price point. Other manufacturers will ignore this trend at their own peril.

Thank you for doing that super explanation of YPAO. I can't wait to get mine!

[wje]

I have the new Yamaha HTR-5760. Very nice receiver. Two thumbs up!!

Other gear I've owned in the past: Denon 1802, 1803, JVC 8000VBK, Sony 4ES, H/K AVR-7200.

[Woochifer]

ill second that JSE/Wooch
however, as far as the room calibration, i can say that it really isnt all that its hyped to be. you are far better getting a separate calibrating device, or using your ears. i would definitely not get the yamaha based on this so-so feature. as far as yamaha vs denon go, well both get raved and ranted on about equally, even if you look at "what hifi" reviews you will find they both fair pretty good-very good. you are already familiar with denon sound. if the yammie is a very very better deal, then that could be fun just to try some new sound. (this makes replaying old cds and dvds a lot of fun). Otherwise id agree that you should consider adding a power amp.

First off, there's no calibration device out there that can duplicate what the YPAO and equivalent function on the Denon do. Why? Because neither receiver has any kind of premain input for the main channels by which you can insert an external processing device. The YPAO provides three parametric filters for EACH channel and adjusts them separately, something that cannot be done with a separate device on that receiver. The only reason you can use a parametric equalizer with a subwoofer is because the sub has its own amp, which gives the equalizer a separate signal path to process.

Second, the presence of the YPAO does not mean that you can no longer make the other system adjustments. Surround levels, delay timing, etc. can all be changed manually.

Third, it's NOT better to make your adjustments by ear. Your ear is not sensitive enough and auditory memory is insufficient to adjust levels for five, six, or seven speakers. You can try, but a sound level meter will almost always give you the best results from the outset. No reason why the YPAO or comparable room calibration function can't give you equal precision (my understanding is that a lot of the misreadings with the YPAO come from noise in the room -- you have to have as silent a room as possible when the calibrations are done). You can use the measured results as a point of reference and then make adjustments to suit your preferences, but going by ear alone is insufficient to establish that reference point.

You're welcome to say that the room calibration feature isn't all it's hyped up to be, that's your opinion, but there's no factual basis to say that the functionality can be duplicated with an add on device, or that it's better to go by ear.