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  1. #26
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    I don't believe I called you a liar, but when a person is not telling the truth...well then......

    How about you are profoundly mistaken? The reality is, you are not getting 1080i nor 5.1 on a Sharp BR player. Only the PS3 has access to 1080p encoded films and 5.1 DD+. All of the links confirm that, so if you keep repeating a mis-truth well.......it is what it is.

    Are you infallible? Can you be mistaken? Even moderators can make mistakes right?

    Here is the proof AGAIN!

    http://netflix.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=372

    Note these words

    Beginning October 18, the PlayStation®3 (PS3™) computer entertainment system from Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc. will be the first consumer electronics device to support 5.1-channel surround sound on movies streamed from Netflix. Netflix said more devices would be added over time to support streaming digital surround sound.

    If the PS3 is the FIRST device to get 5.1 audio based on this press release, how can your Sharp BR player do it now? I am guessing it will take you some time to digest this.

    Here is a comment on the video side of things

    http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2010-10/...80p-5-1-audio/

    Notice these words

    And it’s not just any ole’ Netflix app, as this will be the first to feature (up to) 1080p video content and Dolby Digital 5.1 audio.

    So how can your Sharp BR player be outputting 1080i if the PS3 is the FIRST to offer up to 1080p streaming?

    You can wake up now, the dream is over.
    Last edited by Sir Terrence the Terrible; 10-20-2010 at 01:09 PM.
    Sir Terrence

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  2. #27
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    T, no need to go at him like that. If he says it's 5.1 then give him the benefit of the doubt. The fact is, he has the gear in front of him and you don't...

  3. #28
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
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    here's a good read...Netflix just adopted DD Plus for streaming...

    http://www.hometheatermag.com/news/102010netflixtaps/

  4. #29
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    T, no need to go at him like that. If he says it's 5.1 then give him the benefit of the doubt. The fact is, he has the gear in front of him and you don't...
    AA, sorry, but the facts are pretty clear here. The PS3 in the only device that can do 1080p and 5.1 as of now, and the links support that. So no matter what an individual says, the reality is what it is.

    If I told you I had a speaker with a 5" mid/woofer that is flat to 15hz, and you knew physics didn't support such a conclusion, would you just let what I said go? I would think not. If I told you that same driver is flat to 40khz, and you knew it wasn't true, would you give me the benefit of the doubt, or challenge what I say? I know you would challenge it. So while he may be somebody you really like, in this case, he is really wrong, and by insisting he is right, he is just digging himself into a big deep hole.

    If all of the links say the PS3 is the FIRST device to support 1080p 5.1 streaming, then it is the first, no matter what anyone says. I don't give the benefit of the doubt to known misinformation, no matter who it is coming from.
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  5. #30
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Well I just got off the phone with Netflix customer support and the tech CONFIRMED that I am getting HD quality through my BD player. It seem that the availability of HD programming on demand is limited to high speed connections like my 25MB cable connection.

    I did get one case of re-buffering last time, but it was only for a few seconds.
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  6. #31
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarheel_
    here's a good read...Netflix just adopted DD Plus for streaming...

    http://www.hometheatermag.com/news/102010netflixtaps/
    I like this comment

    The first device to support Dolby Digital Plus in Netflix rentals will be the Sony PS3 gaming console.

    So folks understand. Dolby digital requires too much overhead to be used for streaming. DD+ has all of the necessary tools to give satisfactory audio results when the bit bucket is very low. As a matter of fact, DD+ does its best job when the bit budget is very limited - a better job than Dolby Digital which is why it was chosen for streaming over standard DD.
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  7. #32
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    He may not be new to this stuff, but he can be dead wrong as he is in this case. The PS3 is the ONLY machine that can pass 1080p(not 1080i) and 5.1 sound at this moment via netflix, not the Sharp BR player or any other player.
    What I've found on the Netflix blog here supports that notion as of a week ago, too. On the other hand, the press release says "Netflix said more devices would be added over time to support streaming digital surround sound." It likely shouldn't take too long for them to offer the same capability to their other formats as well.

    rw

  8. #33
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Well I just got off the phone with Netflix customer support and the tech CONFIRMED that I am getting HD quality through my BD player. It seem that the availability of HD programming on demand is limited to high speed connections like my 25MB cable connection.

    I did get one case of re-buffering last time, but it was only for a few seconds.
    The HD "quality" you are getting is called 720p encoding. That is what they use for their HD encodings. This is not 1080i/p. Netflix uses VC-1 for their encodings, and the variable bitrates average between 2600kbps and 3400kbps which is good enough for 720p, but not nearly good enough for 1080i/p.

    http://blog.netflix.com/2008/11/enco...streaming.html

    Notice these words:

    We encode most content at 500, 1000, 1600, and 2200kbps VBR, but some titles whose source quality merits it have also been encoded at 3400kbps. The highest bitrate encodes are fit into 720x480 non-square pixels (the usual 1.2 PAR for widescreen content, 0.9 PAR for 4:3),

    and these:

    Today we have rights to deliver about 400 streams in HD (720p).

    So you see, you are not getting 1080i/p on your Sharp BR player, you are getting HD "lite" which is the best they can do with the current bandwidth offered on the internet.

    Notice these words as well:

    Today, we cannot use WMDRM to deliver AC3 or DD+ audio, which means that only stereo (delivered via WMA) is available.

    The update for the PS3 downloaded included the WMDRM audio container which can support multichannel audio on the PS3. No other player has this update, which is why only the PS3 can do 5.1.

    As I have always said, the devil is in the detail.
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  9. #34
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    What I've found on the Netflix blog here supports that notion as of a week ago, too. On the other hand, the press release says "Netflix said more devices would be added over time to support streaming digital surround sound." It likely shouldn't take too long for them to offer the same capability to their other formats as well.

    rw
    I agree, it won't take them long to get it on other devices. My friend Paidgeek(from Bluray.com) told me that Sony paid handsomely for the right to be the first to offer both 1080p encodes, and multichannel audio. Much like Microsoft paid handsomely for the right to stream without a disc being inserted into the XBOX360.
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  10. #35
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    The HD "quality" you are getting is called 720p encoding. That is what they use for their HD encodings. This is not 1080i/p. Netflix uses VC-1 for their encodings, and the variable bitrates average between 2600kbps and 3400kbps which is good enough for 720p, but not nearly good enough for 1080i/p.

    http://blog.netflix.com/2008/11/enco...streaming.html

    Notice these words:

    We encode most content at 500, 1000, 1600, and 2200kbps VBR, but some titles whose source quality merits it have also been encoded at 3400kbps. The highest bitrate encodes are fit into 720x480 non-square pixels (the usual 1.2 PAR for widescreen content, 0.9 PAR for 4:3),

    and these:

    Today we have rights to deliver about 400 streams in HD (720p).

    So you see, you are not getting 1080i/p on your Sharp BR player, you are getting HD "lite" which is the best they can do with the current bandwidth offered on the internet.

    Notice these words as well:

    Today, we cannot use WMDRM to deliver AC3 or DD+ audio, which means that only stereo (delivered via WMA) is available.

    The update for the PS3 downloaded included the WMDRM audio container which can support multichannel audio on the PS3. No other player has this update, which is why only the PS3 can do 5.1.

    As I have always said, the devil is in the detail.
    Your information is two years out of date. I'm currently listening to Netflix on demand in HD, and in DD, something your old information says is impossible.
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  11. #36
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Your information is two years out of date. I'm currently listening to Netflix on demand in HD, and in DD, something your old information says is impossible.
    This response is just plain pitiful. In the face of an overwhelming amount of evidence that points out that your nose is growing with every response, you are still drowning in denial.

    So let us pick apart your latest example of a crack pipe overdose.

    To encode a full 1080p stream with no visual signs of compression errors you need at least 10mbps which is the very bottom of VC-1 bit threshold for HD streams with no movement on the screen. Netflix encodes have a consistent bitrate of 4mbps(3400mbps for video, and two audio channels at 192kbps and overhead for metadata). This can be verified by inserting the Netflix disc into the PS3, and pressing the button just below the red button on the remote. There is no way a VC-1 encoder can encode a 1080p image at 4mbps, that is below the HD safety encoding bitrate for 1080p, but just below the sweet spot for 720p. I know, I have worked with the VC-1 encoder quite a bit, have you?

    Each time Netflix improves their encoding techniques or expands their streaming platform, they post those changes on their blog. If they do not post something, then it is likely it hasn't changed. When they switched from using WM encodes to VC-1 encodes, they noted it.

    http://blog.netflix.com/2008/11/enco...streaming.html

    When the PS3 became discless, it was announced here

    http://blog.netflix.com/search?updat...max-results=20

    When Netflix announced that Dolby Digital plus is going to be used for 5.1, they posted it here

    http://netflix.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=372

    The date that the announcement was made was October 14, 2010, so there was no way to carry 5.1 before that date. On October 18, this was announced...

    There is even more good news for PS3 owners: starting today you’ll be able to instantly watch some movies and TV shows in 1080p high definition with Dolby 5.1 channel surround sound.

    Now, I looked high and low for an announcement of 1080p and 5.1 audio being offered on the Sharp BR player, and I couldn't find a single thing. So if Netflix posted the announcement for the PS3, why wouldn't they post it for the Sharp BR player? Would that seem a little inconsistent, and wouldn't that be huge news for Sharp and Netflix? With the Netflix blog logging every single change that Netflix has implemented, why would they not announce a major coo for the Sharp players like they did for the PS3? Something isn't adding up, and it seems that you are doing a Meg Whittman on me.

    Now you made this ambiguous proclamation that you are enjoying HD and DD now. Let's look at the detail of your ambiguous(for cover I suppose) statement. Yes you are enjoying HD, but it is HD lite 720p, not 1080i/p of which you insisted you were watching previously. You state you are listening to DD, and that is true. But the devil is in the detail. Your player is transcoding the stereo WM files into a Dolby Digital stream because BR players do not support WM files via streaming. I know this for a fact. It is clear you have transitioned from making specifics like "I am watching 1080i and listening to 5.1" to "I am enjoying HD and DD now". The profound level of ambiguity in this latest statement deeply contrasts to the specifics of your previous statement, which tells me clearly you are walking back your original statement. While you are too prideful to just admit you are wrong, the fact that you walked back your original statement is a satisfactory admission of wrongness since that is the best you probably can do. I am okay with that, but it wasn't really necessary, as the links proved you wrong even if your pride wouldn't acknowledge it.

    It would be interesting if you could offer proof that you are actually seeing 1080i/p, and listening to 5.1 on your Sharp BR player. I think I have provided sufficient evidence that says you are not, and you have not offered anything that effectively counters that.
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  12. #37
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Crack pipe overdose eh? I warned you about your over-use of slanderous verbs.
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  13. #38
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Hey guess what. Turns out my BR player is up-converting the signal to 1080i (exactly what my Sony TV was saying the input is) and my receiver does an excellent job with the matrixed DD stream to decode a very good resemblance of a discrete surround matrix.

    Now where has my crack pipe gone off to.....
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  14. #39
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Hey guess what. Turns out my BR player is up-converting the signal to 1080i (exactly what my Sony TV was saying the input is) and my receiver does an excellent job with the matrixed DD stream to decode a very good resemblance of a discrete surround matrix.

    Now where has my crack pipe gone off to.....
    I am surprised you haven't banned it.....

    Player upconversion is not native HD, and a trancoded stereo audio stream is a long way from discrete 5.1 sound. All this processing does not equal your original claims of 1080i(which is upconverted from 720p), and transcoded two channel WMA outputted as two channel DD being represented as 5.1.

    You cannot ban your way out of misinformation...
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  15. #40
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I am surprised you haven't banned it.....

    Player upconversion is not native HD, and a trancoded stereo audio stream is a long way from discrete 5.1 sound. All this processing does not equal your original claims of 1080i(which is upconverted from 720p)
    i don't get the 720p not being HD. I believe both 720p & 1080p are considered HD. At least on my projector and LCD, both are 720p and display in HD. From what I gather, most channels are broadcast in this resolution so other than a few channels and Blu-ray movies, I consider 720p as HD.

  16. #41
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarheel_
    i don't get the 720p not being HD. I believe both 720p & 1080p are considered HD. At least on my projector and LCD, both are 720p and display in HD. From what I gather, most channels are broadcast in this resolution so other than a few channels and Blu-ray movies, I consider 720p as HD.
    Tarheel,
    In light of the entire film industry transitioning to 1080p encoding, in the studio realm we consider 720p encoding HD "lite". That has nothing to do with your projector, it has to do with the native encoding of 720p. This is no bash on your projector or your LCD panel. Cool?

    720p at 4-6mbps just barely meets the requirement to be considered true HD. Thanks to VC-1 encoding efficiencies, 720p looks very good for the bitrate Netflix is outputting. However, when you consider that DVD uses an average of about 6mbps for 480i encoding, you can see how heavily Netflix relies on compression to get the results they do.
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  17. #42
    Sgt. At Arms Worf101's Avatar
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    Yah....

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    OK, that's enough of this "monkey" buisness.
    Yeah... leave my Mother-in-law outta this!!!

    Worf

    (Sorry I Couldn't resist)

  18. #43
    Sgt. At Arms Worf101's Avatar
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    Hmmm...

    I've read the entire thread and I think I understand the basics. I've friends who are streaming movies from Netflix and thought they were getting as good as could get if they were using the Blu-Ray straight from the machine. I informed them loud and often that there was/is insufficient bandwidth to provide 1080 anything and 5.1 over the net YET. Now I can give them a more qualified answer thanks to Sir TT AND Geoffcin for helping to inform me.

    One question. Will there be mods to my Oppo Blu-Ray that will eventually give me what you Playstation folks are getting or will I have to "upgrade" when the new model comes out or will they give me a rebate for that upgrade. Enquiring minds wanna know.

    Worf

  19. #44
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worf101
    Yeah... leave my Mother-in-law outta this!!!

    Worf

    (Sorry I Couldn't resist)
    There is something quite wrong with that statement, but I can't put my finger on it.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  20. #45
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worf101
    One question. Will there be mods to my Oppo Blu-Ray that will eventually give me what you Playstation folks are getting or will I have to "upgrade" when the new model comes out or will they give me a rebate for that upgrade. Enquiring minds wanna know.

    Worf
    I would guess that some updates will be available to you, but doubt that they will be the same updates. The PS3 uses software for many of it's proccesses while your BR player uses hardware. Software can be updated but hardware can't. At lease not as easily.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  21. #46
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worf101
    I've read the entire thread and I think I understand the basics. I've friends who are streaming movies from Netflix and thought they were getting as good as could get if they were using the Blu-Ray straight from the machine. I informed them loud and often that there was/is insufficient bandwidth to provide 1080 anything and 5.1 over the net YET. Now I can give them a more qualified answer thanks to Sir TT AND Geoffcin for helping to inform me.
    Now Worf, before telling them that you are doing to get an identical experience from streaming that you get from Bluray disc, I am telling you that 1080p and 5.1 from streaming is no where close to what you get from the disc. Not EVEN close. However, for what streaming is right now, it is quite good.

    1080p from a from a 4.5mbps stream will not have the color, clarity and detail that a Bluray disc has with a 25-40mbps data rate has. All you have to do is compare 2012, or some of the other high profile titles on Netflix with the disc, and you can clearly see that. The same with lossy DD+ compared with lossless 5.1 from the disc. While DD+ can get you 70% there, at the bitrates Neflix uses, I would say it is closer to 60% of lossless. An overwhelming amount of Netflix's movies offer only two channel stereo, and no amount of processing is going to make it sound like true 5.1, which is why I cannot understand anyone thinking it is true 5.1.

    One question. Will there be mods to my Oppo Blu-Ray that will eventually give me what you Playstation folks are getting or will I have to "upgrade" when the new model comes out or will they give me a rebate for that upgrade. Enquiring minds wanna know.

    Worf
    I think Oppo will probably offer an upgrade so you Oppo folks will have what we will have on the PS3 if the hardware is up to the task. The PS3 got it first because it is an all software based player, and it is easier to code it for the upgrade. Chip based system's like the standalones require a bit more work to program its chips to handle the upgrades, but I don't think it is impossible to do.
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  22. #47
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Now Worf, before telling them that you are doing to get an identical experience from streaming that you get from Bluray disc, I am telling you that 1080p and 5.1 from streaming is no where close to what you get from the disc. Not EVEN close. However, for what streaming is right now, it is quite good.

    1080p from a from a 4.5mbps stream will not have the color, clarity and detail that a Bluray disc has with a 25-40mbps data rate has. All you have to do is compare 2012, or some of the other high profile titles on Netflix with the disc, and you can clearly see that. The same with lossy DD+ compared with lossless 5.1 from the disc. While DD+ can get you 70% there, at the bitrates Neflix uses, I would say it is closer to 60% of lossless. An overwhelming amount of Netflix's movies offer only two channel stereo, and no amount of processing is going to make it sound like true 5.1, which is why I cannot understand anyone thinking it is true 5.1.
    I think that Worf was agreeing with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I think Oppo will probably offer an upgrade so you Oppo folks will have what we will have on the PS3 if the hardware is up to the task. The PS3 got it first because it is an all software based player, and it is easier to code it for the upgrade. Chip based system's like the standalones require a bit more work to program its chips to handle the upgrades, but I don't think it is impossible to do.
    I think that I was agreeing with you.

    Are we agreed?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  23. #48
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    I think that Worf was agreeing with you.



    I think that I was agreeing with you.

    Are we agreed?
    We are indeed agreed.......what were we agreeing on again?
    Sir Terrence

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  24. #49
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    We are indeed agreed.......what were we agreeing on again?
    I can't say here. I'll PM you.

    (Sorry JM)
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  25. #50
    Da Dragonball Kid L.J.'s Avatar
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    I noticed that HD & 5.1 content is clearly identified now. I'm getting serious use out of my Netflix account now & looking forward to a streaming only plan. Good info guys!

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