Looks like Plasma still beats LCD

[Ed_in_Tx]

So Sony had three liscencees, which still presents a problem against VHS numerous liscencees. Since NEC and Sanyo players were rebadged Sony players, you have made my point.

You misunderstood. The NEC and Sanyo were made by NEC and Sanyo respectively, not rebadged Sonys like Zenith marketed.

Forgot another one - Toshiba built their own Beta machines too.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

You misunderstood. The NEC and Sanyo were made by NEC and Sanyo respectively, not rebadged Sonys like Zenith marketed.

Forgot another one - Toshiba built their own Beta machines too.

Whether it is one liscensee or four, Sony still could not compete with the multitude of liscensees from the VHS side. NEC, Toshiba, and Sanyo may have been liscensees, but they did not bring anything new to the format unlike the manufacturers and liscensees on the VHS side. Toshiba did more for VHS than it ever did for Beta format.

[frahengeo]

Whether it is one liscensee or four, Sony still could not compete with the multitude of liscensees from the VHS side. NEC, Toshiba, and Sanyo may have been liscensees, but they did not bring anything new to the format unlike the manufacturers and liscensees on the VHS side. Toshiba did more for VHS than it ever did for Beta format.

Hmm. My recollection from my youth was that VHS offered longer recording times. One could actually fit a movie on a VHS tape (~ 2 hours), but with my Dad's Betamax, we couldn't. That factor alone would've swayed me to VHS.

My Buddy's Dad's VHS machine was a front loader too. Very cool at the time. Memories...

Getting off-topic, don't you think?

[jvc]

Did you notice in the article, where it said, "This same effect also applies to vertical viewing positions and angles, so don’t even think about mounting your LCD HDTV above the fireplace! Make sure that the center of the TV is close to your normal viewing eye level."

[pixelthis]

Hmm. My recollection from my youth was that VHS offered longer recording times. One could actually fit a movie on a VHS tape (~ 2 hours), but with my Dad's Betamax, we couldn't. That factor alone would've swayed me to VHS.

My Buddy's Dad's VHS machine was a front loader too. Very cool at the time. Memories...

Getting off-topic, don't you think?

The recording time was a major issue for most people.
The JAPANESE are a very stubborn people, and beleive in pride and honor.
Thats why we had to drop two A bombs on them, they dared us to repeat the feat.
And its been that way in every "format" war, its why Pioneer kept laserdisc alive all of those years.
Sad thing is Sony could have adressed all of its problems but refused,
insisting that their form factor was "perfect", letting ego get in the way until it was way too late.
So the inferiour format won.
Thats what I keep prattling on about on this site , economics will matter more in what you
get for your system than anything else, economies of scale are a huge factor in what
can be offered to the enthusiast

[frahengeo]

The recording time was a major issue for most people.
The JAPANESE are a very stubborn people, and beleive in pride and honor.
Thats why we had to drop two A bombs on them, they dared us to repeat the feat.
And its been that way in every "format" war, its why Pioneer kept laserdisc alive all of those years.
Sad thing is Sony could have adressed all of its problems but refused,
insisting that their form factor was "perfect", letting ego get in the way until it was way too late.
So the inferiour format won.
Thats what I keep prattling on about on this site , economics will matter more in what you
get for your system than anything else, economies of scale are a huge factor in what
can be offered to the enthusiast

Watching too many Samurai movies, perhaps?

The Japanese have been giving it back to us since by getting us to buy their Cars, Audio/Video gear. and best of all Playstation.

Focus Daniel-san!! Plasma still beats LCD.

[nightflier]

The JAPANESE are a very stubborn people, and beleive in pride and honor. Thats why we had to drop two A bombs on them, they dared us to repeat the feat.

...finds this more than a bit insulting.

By the way, they never "dared" us to repeat it. They were as shocked as we were at the absolute annihilation caused by a single bomb. We can debate ad infinitum whether we should or should not have dropped the bombs on civilians; and having several family members who survived the concentration camps, I can assure you that's not an easy question. But there's absolutely no reason to make light of it here. Japan is a very different country today than what it was under the dictatorship in WW2.

[RoadRunner6]

Japan might might be a different country but that old culture still runs deep. Calling the imperial reign of Hirohito and his military leadership a dictatorship is misleading. It is a convenient form of scapegoatism to imply that Hirohito was unware of or disapproved of the miiltary actions. The Japanese people were 100% behind him and the miltiary, My Japanese wife still recalls that her mother thought he was divine. She is still alive today. As a teenager she practiced with farm impliments to defend the country when the American devils would invade.

When I met my wife 13 years ago she still had the same opinion about the Japanese involement in WWII as almost all Japanese still hold. That is that America forced Japan to take legitimate action in attacking Pearl Harbor and America was in fact the agressor. Any mention to the Japanese of their treatment of enemy soldiers brings a response that this is just an ordinary part of war. They have no clue about the horrble attrocities commited by the Japanese military before and throughout the war. The racial descrimination that existed in the minds of the Japanese is still very previlant in Japan. It is very subtle now but they still consider themselves superior to other asians and foreigners. It is somewhat rare but I have seen restaurants and lounges with a prominate "Japanese Only" sign displayed at the front door. How long would the reverse last in the US?

My wife and most of the Japanese people still have no idea of the horrible actions of the Japanese military against America, China, Korea, the Philippines and other Asian countries. My wife had never heard of the Baatan Death March (which my cousin was in), that 40% of Amercan POW's died in Japanese POW camps (most of these deaths were the result of starvation or summary torture and execution....no we're not talking about water-boarding here), about the Nanking Massacre, that Japanese purposely shot and bayoneted American POW's so that their military doctors would have ginny pigs to practice on, and other facts that the Japanese would rather not remember or admit.

Unfortunately, many well intentined but historically uninformed Americans forget or are unaware of the truth and concentrate on the bombs. Anyone like me who has spent time out of the large cities in Japan would understand the extremely mountainous terrain of Japan. A long drawn out invasion, which in fact would have been necessary if not for the bombs, would have resulted in millions of civilian as well as military deaths. This is due to the stubborn cultural mindset of not only the Japanes mililary but also the civilain population. They had a never surrender and fight until the death mentality and only surrendered due to the ultimate shock of the bombs.

There are no gatherings in Japan to publicly lament the barbaric military actions of their country. There is no mention in their history books of their national guilt. The Japanese lose face if they admit to fault and never will. Our self-condemnation because of the bomb is an excercise you will never witness from the Japanese.

The dropping of the bombs, so abhorent an act in itself, was in fact an everlasting blessing in disguise. Millions of lives were in fact saved. I have grown to love my Japanese family, the Japanese people, and Japan and all its beauties. However, it is to the eternal discredit to Japan and their culture that they cannot admit that they were the guilty party in the war with America from Pearl Harbor to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We went on to occupy and peacefully stimulated the regrowth of Japan in the post war era.

America Banzai!

[pixelthis]

Well said, and its a part of Japanese culture (and other asian tigers as well)
to refuse to admit when they are wrong.
WHICH LEADS TO A LOT OF "FORMAT" WARS.

[frahengeo]

Well said, and its a part of Japanese culture (and other asian tigers as well)
to refuse to admit when they are wrong.
WHICH LEADS TO A LOT OF "FORMAT" WARS.

Hmm. 1) 8-track vs. cassette 2)Microsoft vs. Apple in the 80's - This eventually settled, but there was turmoil in its days. 3) DVD vs. DIVX, (represented by Circuit City and a bunch of lawyers from California). None of these examples can be blamed solely on the stubborn Japanese, if at all. Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD, yes both Japanese, but because there was no American participation. Plus you can't blame anyone for not backing down. After all there was a lot at stake for the involved parties in terms of initial investment and future revenue. Call it stubborn, if you like. I call it "protecting your investment"

Besides, format wars can be good. It promotes competition between companies, which is always good for the consumer. Let the majority decide what features, performances, prices and logos they like.

Also, where would we be without the stubborn Japanese. Well, you wouldn't have the gear that you have today. But then again, maybe you would be okay with that.

I'm not Japanse nor am I promoting the Japanese. Sure. They've done some bad things, but so have we (the Americans). For now, lets try and enjoy the gadgets that they've invented.

One more time. Plasma is better than LCD!!!

[Feanor]

...

The dropping of the bombs, so abhorent an act in itself, was in fact an everlasting blessing in disguise. Millions of lives were in fact saved. I have grown to love my Japanese family, the Japanese people, and Japan and all its beauties. However, it is to the eternal discredit to Japan and their culture that they cannot admit that they were the guilty party in the war with America from Pearl Harbor to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We went on to occupy and peacefully stimulated the regrowth of Japan in the post war era.

America Banzai!

No, dropping the bombs was not abhorent. It was a rational choice which, (as you have already agreed), saved the lives of millions of Japanese as well as Americans.

The denial of guilt by the government and people of Japan is contempatble and cowardly -- and was not necessarily inevidable. Contrast it with the flagellant attitude of the Germany government and the majority of Germans for their role in WWII.

[emaidel]

Good Lord, what a strange direction this thread has taken! RoadRunner's post was outstanding in its informative, truthful manner, and one I feel honored to have been able to read.

I do still have certain reservations about the Japanese "business as war" mentality that was so prevalent throughout the 70's and 80's, especially in the electronics industry. Having worked for a Japanese company (Onkyo), and having worked for other companies whose products were manufactured in Japan, I quickly came to realize that "honor" meant absoslutely nothing to the Japanese, especially when it came to dealing with American businessmen. I also found it quite true that the Japanese simply refused to ever accept fault, and just about always blamed the poor sales, resulting from some of their blunders, entirely on the American sales force.

Americans, especially those in key sales positions in this industry for Japanese companies, were regarded as "expendable commodities." Once market penetration was established, and the product's name was now on the tip of most consumer's tongues,, all thanks to the efforts of the American sales managers, VP's, etc., such people were summarily fired by the Japanese, and given pathetic, or no, severance packages.

Such treatment wouldn't be tolerated today, with "wrongful dismissal" lawsuits filed repeatedly against these companies, but that just wasn't done back in the 70's and 80's, and the Japanese companies basically got away with murder.

A perfect exmaple of Japanese bias in business is brilliantly outlined in Michael Crichton's book (NOT the movie) "Rising Sun."

[nightflier]

Sorry fellas, but that doesn't wash. I have seen the fingernails of my uncle where the Japanese stuck specially manufactured needles, just as I have seen the ears that were burned off of my other uncle by the SS in Belgium. I have other family members who were active in Indonesia and Holland during the war who can tell you stories to make even Pol Pot blush. I have also read about and seen pictures of the medieval atrocities on the people of China, Mongolia, Indonesia, The Philippines, Burma, etc. Well, my uncles are no longer alive, but if they were still here, they would both have advocated dropping another bomb on both Berlin and Tokyo. And for all it's justifications, that is still spoken in anger.

I also have a good friend who is Japanese, who is a little older than I am. He is also disabled, so during the war he was considered a blemish on his country and he too can tell you heart-rendering stories about the abuses of the military dictatorship of the time: the secret service visits, the complete control of all information, and the way he had to live with the animals in the barn. While he will not deny the strong sense of pride that his countrymen have, they also have a very deep understanding about the meaning of society and that what happens to one happens to all. This is something we as Americans can probably learn a lot from. He will also tell you that Hiroshima and Nagasaki was like a kick in the gut to every Japanese person, even for himself, despite the anger he bore towards his government. And it did not matter whether these were civilians or military people that were incinerated by the thousands. The thought that the Americans could repeat this was what ended the war.

The simple question remains: why did the Americans not use the bombs on military targets? Sure the Japanese military might have had more opportunity to cover that up, but something of such magnitude isn't so easy to hide. Many historians will argue that the result (total capitulation and the abdication of the emperor) would have ensued. Well, we'll never really know, but to say that the Japanese asked for more after Nagasaki, is completely false. Then to follow that up by suggesting that this is somehow exemplary of the format wars is even more ridiculous. And all this on the anniversary of the bombings? A little cold, no?

Now I know some of us are veterans and ex-military and maybe were even stationed in Japan and have formed opinions about that time, but the Japan of WW2 is not the Japan of today. Not only is this history trickling into the textbooks there (as it has in Germany), but the younger generation knows a whole lot more than their elders about it. Millions of Japanese also live outside of Japan, in places where the history is more complete. It's going to take some time, but it is changing. In my opinion Pix went too far. His conclusions are wild stretches, misguided and insensitive, especially during the anniversary of these attacks.

And yes, as an American, I'm also not so proud of what we've done to peoples all over the world and in our own country. I can remember a few anecdotes that I learned in college because my high-school history books had no mention of them: the Trail of Tears, Rosewood, the extermination of 1/4 of the male Philippino population, and the more recent odium like the furnishing of both Iraq and Iran with Chemical weapons during their gruesome war with each other, as well as what is now coming to light about the medieval treatment of enemy combatants - the pictures from Abu Graib are the rated G version, apparently. No wonder even Obama wants to keep this secret. So let's not start casting stones. American business practices aren't exactly the exemplar for civilization either: everything from the Pinkerton union busting to the human rights abuses of our oil, diamond, agriculture and chemical manufacturers around the globe is at the very least cause for some reflection.

No. Japan is no saint, but who really is?

[BallinWithNash]

i was expecting more of an explosion from pixy

[pixelthis]

i was expecting more of an explosion from pixy

Concering what?
The dvd WAR THAT two camps had before teh launch of that format makes the DIVIX
skrimish pale in comparison.
AND we bombed two cities because of their statregic importance, and besides ,
making an entire city disapear instead of just a base is a lot more impressive.
I havent been posting for the last few days, got a new computer, so now I can rile people
a lot faster.

[Tmankiller72]

SHUSHHHHHH.
We don't want all of those plasma owners to get upset, now do we?
If they found out that they own a dying format, and that most think that looking
at a plasma screen is like looking into a clothes washer while its running, the poor dears
might get a tad upset.
Just let them watch their dim glossy screens, sucking their thumbs and comforted
by the glow of phosper, reminding them of days when they watched howdey
Doody while eating their corn flakes, and the world was a simpler place.
Poor dears are in such denial , we wouldnt want to cause any psychotic breaks, hum?

Ummm, I own a Vizio 47 xvt LCD 1080p ..blah,blah blah ..and I also own a Panny 58" plasma that is "only" 768p ..and I hate to burst your liquid crystal but the larger and "less resolution" plasma looks ..MUCH better than the lcd. Sorry but I can do a comparison using the same Direct TV HD feed and use the same channel and use the same blu-ray demos and the plasma beats the lcd everytime. If I had the extra cash I would grab one of those truly dying breed Pioneer Elite 60" plasmas which I do believe is the display of the year for the last what 3 or 4 years on just about every review out there.

[Tmankiller72]

I guess that's why all the manufacturers are abandoning plasma?

LCD is cheaper to make due to the various screen sizes and multiple manufacturers of panels. Lets see you can make plasmas from about 42" to 65" or you can make lcd's from 5" to 65" it's an easy business decision. Plus with the led backlighting it can be labeled as much more energy efficient. ......But come on you can't tell me that the top of the line Pioneer and Panny plasmas are inferior in PQ to any lcd even the new Samsung LED lit ones. Seriously if you can't see that the Elite just crushes the lcd's you must be color blind or just technology blind.

[pixelthis]

LCD is cheaper to make due to the various screen sizes and multiple manufacturers of panels. Lets see you can make plasmas from about 42" to 65" or you can make lcd's from 5" to 65" it's an easy business decision. Plus with the led backlighting it can be labeled as much more energy efficient. ......But come on you can't tell me that the top of the line Pioneer and Panny plasmas are inferior in PQ to any lcd even the new Samsung LED lit ones. Seriously if you can't see that the Elite just crushes the lcd's you must be color blind or just technology blind.

Give me a break.
The elite is a megabuck tv, are you seriously comparing it to a thousand dollar VIZIO?
As for the LED TV sets out there , they knock the socks off of plasma, conventional
LCD, you name it.
PQ is such a personal thing, you think plasma is "better" because it is phosper
based, like the CRT that you have watched all of your life.
You think its "better" because it "looks" more like what you think a TV set should
"look" like, but that is really just your opinion..

[BallinWithNash]

concerning the plasma vs. LCD (LCD beats plasma!) and thank you pixie that is much better haha

[nightflier]

Give me a break.
The elite is a megabuck tv, are you seriously comparing it to a thousand dollar VIZIO

If there is a megabuck LCD set out there, it still would not compare to that megabuck plasma. The fact is there aren't any real picture improvements once you go up in price on the LCD side. Sure, there are lots of fancy numbers, but the picture still looks like LCD to the eye. It's sort of like comparing a fluorescent lightbulb to an incandescent one, for all its technological backwardness, the incandescent bulb is much more pleasant on the eyes. Other examples I can think of that make the same point: digital vs. analog, solid state vs. tubes, and the list goes on. No matter how much more modern, energy efficient, crisper, brighter, whatever it is, in the end we always go back to what's more pleasing.

And not to drive the silver stake in all the way, here, but on the lower end of the price range, plasma unconditionally beats LCD on picture quality. Panasonic's line of budget plasma TVs are consistently more pleasant to watch than comparably priced LCDs. Again, this is because that crisp brightness and overly sharp image you see in the store in only impressive there. Once you spend some time watching both sets, your eyes almost always gravitate back to the more relaxing, less intense picture so that you can focus on the content rather than the delivery system.

If plasma does go away because of market pressure, it will be another superior format that was killed off for the sake of a bigger profit-margin. In the end, it's the consumers who loose out.

By the way, I bought a "budget" plasma set and have not looked back. It has better picture quality than any LCD I considered, and guess what, it's not an energy hog either and beats many LCDs of the same size on energy consumption, imagine that!

[pixelthis]

If there is a megabuck LCD set out there, it still would not compare to that megabuck plasma. The fact is there aren't any real picture improvements once you go up in price on the LCD side. Sure, there are lots of fancy numbers, but the picture still looks like LCD to the eye. It's sort of like comparing a fluorescent lightbulb to an incandescent one, for all its technological backwardness, the incandescent bulb is much more pleasant on the eyes. Other examples I can think of that make the same point: digital vs. analog, solid state vs. tubes, and the list goes on. No matter how much more modern, energy efficient, crisper, brighter, whatever it is, in the end we always go back to what's more pleasing.

And not to drive the silver stake in all the way, here, but on the lower end of the price range, plasma unconditionally beats LCD on picture quality. Panasonic's line of budget plasma TVs are consistently more pleasant to watch than comparably priced LCDs. Again, this is because that crisp brightness and overly sharp image you see in the store in only impressive there. Once you spend some time watching both sets, your eyes almost always gravitate back to the more relaxing, less intense picture so that you can focus on the content rather than the delivery system.

If plasma does go away because of market pressure, it will be another superior format that was killed off for the sake of a bigger profit-margin. In the end, it's the consumers who loose out.

By the way, I bought a "budget" plasma set and have not looked back. It has better picture quality than any LCD I considered, and guess what, it's not an energy hog either and beats many LCDs of the same size on energy consumption, imagine that!

Have you seen a LCD with the new LED backlight?
Go take a look and then kick yourself in the butt.

[nightflier]

I have and it still doesn't compare to a good plasma. When's the last time you had your eyes checked?

[pixelthis]

concerning the plasma vs. LCD (LCD beats plasma!) and thank you pixie that is much better haha

Always a crowd pleaser, thats me.
You will never get the plasma crowd to quit suckin their thumbs and grabbing their security
blankeys for dear life, they love the way a phosper screen plasma set resembles the
tube" sets they grew up with and they will never let it go , will hang onto it as long as they can.
Probably most will suffer a psychotic break when they can't buy anything with a phosper
screen anymore.

[pixelthis]

I have and it still doesn't compare to a good plasma. When's the last time you had your eyes checked?

Recently, and still have two of em, when was the last time you had your taste
checked?

[pixelthis]

This is much more fun, mixing it up in real time instead of posting at 4:00 in the morning.
something good to this unemployment thing after all.