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  1. #26
    IRG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Keep in mind that when I refer to mismatching center speakers I'm not talking about brand matching, I'm talking about timbre-matching.

    I firmly believe that it is as simple as I stated. If the center speaker matching is insufficient, the liabilities far outweigh the benefits. My argument in favor of using a center speaker in the first place has more to do with how the soundtracks are mixed, and trying to reproduce that signal as closely as possible. The default downmixing on a 5.1 soundtrack does not always create a solid phantom center image, however the detrimental effect that process has is nothing compared to how a mismatched center speaker can hollow out and ruin the front soundstage. I've heard center speakers from Boston, B&W, and Bose that mismatched the mains so badly that I much preferred the sound with the center speakers switched off.

    The horizontal positioning of a center speaker already ensures that the match won't be perfect, but in plenty of cases, it can be close enough so that the benefits of having that center speaker in place outweigh whatever drawbacks it brings. But, so many center speakers have been designed almost as afterthoughts -- different drivers, different tonal characteristics -- that they cross that line where their liabilities begin to outweigh the benefits. Even worse when timbral characteristics get deliberately jumbled together by consumers looking to add a center speaker to an existing setup, and go on the cheap. With surround speakers, you can get away with mismatches because of how most of the existing 5.1 soundtracks got mixed (with separation between the front and surround soundstages, and minimal mixing that crosses the front and surround channels at roughly equal levels). With center speakers, the mismatches become apparent very quickly.



    I think we're in agreement here. My point is that center speakers are already compromises to begin with because of their horizontal alignment. Any further compromises in the timbre matching and the utility of the center speaker falls below the compromises inherent in going without a center speaker.



    Actually, I would much rather go without a center speaker than without surrounds. IMO, the best justification for the upgrade to 5.1 is the full bandwidth discrete surround channels. It's the surround channels that create the depth perception and limitless horizontal soundstage with good multichannel music soundtracks, and it's what gives that extra sense of immersion with movies.

    Growing up in L.A., I was totally spoiled by the number of movie theaters down there that featured 70mm presentations. In the days before theatrical Dolby Digital and DTS, this was the only way to hear discrete full bandwidth surround sound. That's why I was never enamored with Pro Logic, because it still featured a two-channel soundtrack with bandwidth limitations. The center speaker did not represent enough of an upgrade for me to make the upgrade.

    It wasn't until 5.1 DD decoders became available for home use that I seriously even considered upgrading from two-channel. The key difference there was discrete surrounds. IMO, that is the key to recreating the theatrical experience. Even more important than the subwoofer, because even in a 5.1 theatrical setup, not all of the theaters will have good subwoofers in place.
    I'm with Kexodusc on this one, with the understanding that this is all personal preference, and not simply there is only one right way to go. I have owned both a 5 channel surround system, a 2 channel system, and now am back to a 5.1 system again. Actually it is a 3.1 system. No surrounds yet. Do I miss them? For music no, for HT, only a little bit. I have never had a good place to put them, and once this is resolved, I will get rear surrounds. But I do have a center channel (that doesn't match my mains), and since I didn't have one with my 2 channel system, this was much more missed than my surrounds. Not even close.

    And do I care that my center (Athena) doesn't match my mains (Paradigm)? Again, not even an issue to me. It used to be, but now I believe there are other things in life to worry about. I made sure I had all of the channels with the same output (I thank Woochifer for this), and that alone makes a bigger difference to me. Granted, Athena and Paradigm Monitors are not all that different to begin with. If I had mixed a horn with a planar speaker, I might feel differently.

    Also, almost as important (to me) as the center, was adding my old sub back into my system. I didn't have it with the 2 channel system, and now that it is back, it just makes both music and HT much more enjoyable.

    I have posted about sub purchases, and am still looking. I would spend a lot more on a sub purchase than a center speaker purchase. Because for me, the sub makes a big difference on music, whereas for a center is not even being used.

    It is also important to note that generally when I do get to listen to a DVD at night, I can't turn it up real loud anyway, so most of the time any mismatch with timbre that might exist is so subtle at best, as to be a non factor. If I listened at reference levels, again, I might feel differently. We all have different expectations and demands. My demands are much more aligned with getting music right (and I have a long ways to go) than with HT, which is less a priority. Have a nice weekend y'all.

  2. #27
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRG
    I'm with Kexodusc on this one, with the understanding that this is all personal preference, and not simply there is only one right way to go. I have owned both a 5 channel surround system, a 2 channel system, and now am back to a 5.1 system again. Actually it is a 3.1 system. No surrounds yet. Do I miss them? For music no, for HT, only a little bit. I have never had a good place to put them, and once this is resolved, I will get rear surrounds. But I do have a center channel (that doesn't match my mains), and since I didn't have one with my 2 channel system, this was much more missed than my surrounds. Not even close.

    And do I care that my center (Athena) doesn't match my mains (Paradigm)? Again, not even an issue to me. It used to be, but now I believe there are other things in life to worry about. I made sure I had all of the channels with the same output (I thank Woochifer for this), and that alone makes a bigger difference to me. Granted, Athena and Paradigm Monitors are not all that different to begin with. If I had mixed a horn with a planar speaker, I might feel differently.

    Also, almost as important (to me) as the center, was adding my old sub back into my system. I didn't have it with the 2 channel system, and now that it is back, it just makes both music and HT much more enjoyable.

    I have posted about sub purchases, and am still looking. I would spend a lot more on a sub purchase than a center speaker purchase. Because for me, the sub makes a big difference on music, whereas for a center is not even being used.

    It is also important to note that generally when I do get to listen to a DVD at night, I can't turn it up real loud anyway, so most of the time any mismatch with timbre that might exist is so subtle at best, as to be a non factor. If I listened at reference levels, again, I might feel differently. We all have different expectations and demands. My demands are much more aligned with getting music right (and I have a long ways to go) than with HT, which is less a priority. Have a nice weekend y'all.

    A sub adds bass for music but its yhe .1 in movies which makes it more important for movies for me. You'll still here most the bass withoiut it but you'll miss all the .1 in the movie. And not having surrounds,watch SPR and then when you get the surrounds and watch it, well its different. Bottom line is you should have 5 plus a sub to get the full benifit out of a 5.1 reciever.
    Look & Listen

  3. #28
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    I've been reading over all of these posts... interesting thread on a subject that has come up more than a few times on this board. I am generally a big advocate on the use of a center channel speaker. As far as placing a value on whether one should go without surrounds versus going without a center channel speaker, that's hard to say. If I HAD to choose one or the other, I'd probably go without the center channel speaker because, unlike Kex's wife, my wife could care less about all of this audio stuff and I can assure myself of a seat in the sweet spot almost everytime. If I couldn't have the sweet spot most of the time it would drive me nuts to have the center channel information collapse to the nearest front speaker -- more so than having the surround information folded into the front speakers if I didn't have surrounds. So you can see I'm firmly "on the fence" and of no help on this subject at all. I will say that with older DPL based systems, there were times when I actually preferred how systems sounded without a center channel speaker because this processing created such a "center channel bloat"; even with DPL's limited bandwith mono surround information I would have given up the center speaker instead of the surrounds everytime. But asside from chosing one over the other, to me the really important issue is to advocate for timbrally matched speaker systems as much as possible. I don't mean to be cynical but I suspect there are many casting their votes one way or the other without ever having heard the benefits of a system with truly timbre matched center and main speakers -- or even better yet, a complete timbre matched 5.1 system. At least with the discrete surround formats (DD & DTS) I have always believed in the importance of using a center channel speaker, whether timbre matched or not. But it wasn't until I made the move to timbre match my front three that I gained an appreciation for just how much of a difference this can make. What I'm saying is that you can speculate as to how much (or little) importance timbre matching makes to overall system performance, but until you experience it for yourself, you may not know as much as you think you know.

    I actually run three identical speakers up front (three Klipsch KLF 10's) rather than mains with the designated and supposed timbre matched center channel speaker, and I can tell you that the difference in sound quality and the cohesiveness of the front sound stage is substantial. With this setup, you lose the sense that there are even three seperate speakers in front of you, they become much more transparent and the sound takes on a naturalness of one giant soundstage. I had no idea that all of the elements of the front soundstage could intergrate or were even suppose to intergrate so well together. With a mismatched center speaker, dialogue remained anchored at the center channel speaker as you would think it should, but it wasn't until after I made the change to timbre match my system that I found much dialogue was actually panned half or a quarter way between center and left or right channels. Before, it had simply all collapsed to the center speaker because the intergration between the center and mains was not as good as it could be. This is why I always recommend that if it is possible, people look at running three identical speakers up front -- for most folks, three identical bookshelf speakers, as compared to the mains and a manufactured center channel speaker. If you can get them all on the same plane, that's even better. I realize that all of us have to make compromises that effect sound quality in consideration of other factors. But I do think it is a mistake to abandon certain standards so easily because they are assumed to be not as important as advertised. Generally I have found that where you are able to setup systems to these standards there are definite rewards there waiting for you. Just my $0.02

    Q

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