DTS? Dolby this that and another thing?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I believe NEO6 is a DTS version of PLXII. It derives 5.1 channels of sound from original two channel input.

Neo6 actually creates 6 channels from 2.

[markw]

Neo6 actually creates 6 channels from 2.

That would be akin to alchemy, creating gold from lead.

I'd say "simulates" more channels in order to keep all available channels busy would be a more appropiate description.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

That would be akin to alchemy, creating gold from lead.

I'd say "simulates" more channels in order to keep all available channels busy would be a more appropiate description.

I don't think your analogy is quite correct here. Gold and lead are too different types metals. Your analogy changes one to another, and that is not what Neo6 does. Neo6 takes the phase and frequency of signals already in the left channel, cancels them out of that channel, and steers them to the left side channel. It is not transforming anything from one thing to the next, it is just moving what is already there - thereby creating another channel.

Creation

The action or process of bringing something into existence: "job creation".

Simulate

Imitate the appearance or character of

I would say that Neo6 is more like creation than it is an imitation.

[markw]

I don't think your analogy is quite correct here. Gold and lead are too different types metals. Your analogy changes one to another, and that is not what Neo6 does. Neo6 takes the phase and frequency of signals already in the left channel, cancels them out of that channel, and steers them to the left side channel. It is not transforming anything from one thing to the next, it is just moving what is already there - thereby creating another channel.

Creation

The action or process of bringing something into existence: "job creation".

Simulate

Imitate the appearance or character of

I would say that Neo6 is more like creation than it is an imitation.

I'll stand by what I said.

You can't get more than two "real" channels out of two. If you really think you can "create" real multiple channels, you're falling for your industrys own marketing BS.

Period.

End of discussion.

You can fake (or "simulate") more "channels", but you can't create real, discrete, ones. But, yes, it does let people think they are getting "real" multi-channel sound out of a two channel source so they don't feel they wasted their money on all those amps and speakers.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I'll stand by what I said.

You can't get more than two "real" channels out of two. If you really think you can "create" real multiple channels, you're falling for your industrys own marketing BS.

Period.

End of discussion.

You can fake (or "simulate") more "channels", but you can't create real, discrete, ones. But, yes, it does let people think they are getting "real" multi-channel sound out of a two channel source so they don't feel they wasted their money on all those amps and speakers.

Not quite the end of discussion because of course you are glossing of necessary detail.

Mark, you can stick to your point if it makes you feel better. However, if you do a signal analysis of what is happening with both PLII and Neo6, those additional channels are in fact discrete channels. It is not a mirror of what is in the front channels. It is information cancelled out of the front channels and steered to the side channels. Side information is cancelled out of the side channels, and steered to the rear. This is done by bandwidth(high frequencies use one steering speed, mids another, and the bass a much slower speed. If it were nothing more than a simulation, then the same signals would be found in each channels with equal amplitude, a little reverb, and no equalization would be needed. There would also be no effective spread of the sound around you either, as it would sound like all channel stereo. It would sound like a giant ball of mush, and neither of these decoders have that effect.

[markw]

Well then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I've heard Neo* "try" to "create" separate channels from two channel sources and, while it's great for a party mode to get sounds out of all available channels to fill a room, it falls woefully short of "creating", from a two channel source, anything like discrete channels from native, multi-channel DD/DTS sources.

If you really think it does, well, I guess our standards of what's acceptable "multi-channel" sound differ significantly. But, then again, I'm not a pro in that field. I only know what my ears tell me.

...later

*and DPLIIx

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Well then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I am okay with that.

I've heard Neo* "try" to "create" separate channels from two channel sources and, while it's great for a party mode to get sounds out of all available channels to fill a room, it falls woefully short of "creating", from a two channel source, anything like discrete channels from native, multi-channel DD/DTS sources.

Neo at least was not designed to sound like DD or DTS. PLII on the other hand can compare very accurately with both, and this I heard for myself at PLII introduction demo at Dolby Labs.

If you really think it does, well, I guess our standards of what's acceptable "multi-channel" sound differ significantly. But, then again, I'm not a pro in that field. I only know what my ears tell me.

...later

*and DPLIIx

It is not just your ears. But your room, your setup(are your speaker set up to Dolby, DTS or THX recommendations)), your rooms acoustics, and various other things that can impart differences on what folks hear.

[Feanor]

The phase cancellation/extraction thing goes 'way back. I had a DynaQuad adaptor back in the day; it was a passive device without additional amplification for the two rear channels. It did work more or less well depending on the recording. HERE's a Dynaquad explanation & instruction manual.

Eventually DynaQuad was succeeded by Dolby Pro-Logic, Dolby Pro-Logic II, IIx , etc., which all worked on phase content to my knowledge. Music, films, etc., were stereo sometimes "encoded" especially to make the phase difference extraction more predictable and accurate to the recording engineer's intentions. The Dolby versions added separate amplification for each channel.

I suppose Neo6 is an extension of the same principle.

[markw]

I remember Dynaquad. ..and SQ and QS 4-channel recordings from the 70's.

There were actually some recordings "encoded" so there were four intended channels and these did a fair job of creating the effect. Too bad speaker technology wouldn't really allow four decent sized speakers in a most living rooms so most had to live with smaller speakers. They sometimes produced "interesting" effects from unencoded sources in some cases but I would not say they "created" new channels from two.

And, my VHS-tapes were encoded in "Dolby Surround" which actually "encoded" four channels in a stereo soundtrack and was evntually tweaked to become Dolby Pro Logic and did a pretty fair job of sending these four channels where the engineers wanted them to come from, at least until DVD's and digital soundtracks with 5.1 discrete channels became da schnitz.

All these were designed to be enjoyed in the average living room without any special contortions. Granted, one could follow certain recommendations to get even more from it, but to require one to design their living space to accomodate a sound system, is what killed quad back in the 70's. Little speakers were unsatisfying, subwoofers were still beyond the horizon, and good sounding tiny, aesthetically pleasing, speakers were not yet plentiful and affordable.

At one time, automobiles required much more attention (crank the engine, adjust the spark, use a choke, light the headlights with matches, change tires every few miles, suffer no insulation from the weather, etc...) than todays vehicles. If they were to remain so hard to maintain and use, i doubt they would have reached the popularity they share today.

If modern systems required that rigid devotion to enjoy the effect of multi-channel sound, you betcha Joe Sixpack would jump ship. As it how stands, "real" multi-channel sound can be easily enjoyed, to some extent, in almost every living space without having to have a specifically designed room.

That's like saying one needs to sit in one chair, in one specific location, with ones head in one particular position, and not move in order to appreciate the effect of something. Aside from some geeks and those into auto-erotic asphyxiation, Joe sixpack ain't gonna buy into that.

So, if what you're saying is that if I set up my room according to specs you recommend , and acoustically treat it in the way you recommend, I'll be able to hear DTS Neo create six distinct channels from two, i guess I'll just take your word for it 'cause it's never happened in any other environment I've been in and I ain't gonna redo my living environment for something this silly.

But, it did fill the room with non-objectionable, amorphous sounds that were great for parties.

[bfalls]

Neo6 actually creates 6 channels from 2.

DUH! Second mistake I've made in my lifetime. A divorce remedied the first. Thanks for correcting the second:-)

Sit T, after spending 44yrs in this hobby and 12yrs in the industry your assertions ring true to me. I don't always agree with your delivery, but the information makes sense. Some arguments against appear to be for the sake of arguing. With the same points going round and round, I'm getting dizzy. Please! Sombody! Stop the madness!

[bfalls]

Sorry, the "Stop the Madness" rant is for the "New Setup Doesn't Sound the Way it Should". Got my thread confused. Dam#, third mistake! Better stop while I'm ahead. Does it count if you correct yourself??