Data Color's Spyder TV calibration system, part 2

[Jim Clark]

It's past midnight so I'm gonna have to turn in but I wanted to share that this will be ready to ship out on Friday. I got the main TV done tonight and I'll do the basement TV tomorrow night. Doubt I'll mess with the bedroom TVs.

So, that means someone needs to tell me where this is going next. I don't care who, where, or how much it costs to ship. Hairsonfire got the worst of it. Thanks bud.

Full report to follow as soon as time allows. It was fun, I can let that much leak.

Regards,
jc

[L.J.]

It's past midnight so I'm gonna have to turn in but I wanted to share that this will be ready to ship out on Friday. I got the main TV done tonight and I'll do the basement TV tomorrow night. Doubt I'll mess with the bedroom TVs.

So, that means someone needs to tell me where this is going next. I don't care who, where, or how much it costs to ship. Hairsonfire got the worst of it. Thanks bud.

Full report to follow as soon as time allows. It was fun, I can let that much leak.

Regards,
jc

I believe Cali. is next on the list(if there is one). Then it would go out to Texas and make its way back. I'm not sure what Sir T's schedule is like, but I was assuming it would go to him, me and then to Topspeed. Not sure if anyone else is in Cali. If Sir T. is busy than I think I'm next in line.

Guys whaddaya think? Sir T, are you available to go next?

[edtyct]

I believe Cali. is next on the list(if there is one). Then it would go out to Texas and make its way back. I'm not sure what Sir T's schedule is like, but I was assuming it would go to him, me and then to Topspeed. Not sure if anyone else is in Cali. If Sir T. is busy than I think I'm next in line.

Guys whaddaya think? Sir T, are you available to go next?

LJ,

You hit the proverbial nail. I've seen evidence of Sir TT. Maybe he's back in California. I'd appreciate it if someone would PM him. I'll leave it to the Calif. contingent to decide whose next in line, followed by the rest of the Calif. contingent before Westcott gets his shot in Texas. My network (in my home) will be out for an undetermined period today for maintenance, so I may not be able to answer queries--not that I'm needed. With a little luck, however, I'll be able to check in quickly.

Jim,

I'm glad you had fun with it. You can leave your form in the box with Hairsonfire's. I'm looking forward to seeing the data.

Ed

[westcott]

LJ,

You hit the proverbial nail. I've seen evidence of Sir TT. Maybe he's back in California. I'd appreciate it if someone would PM him. I'll leave it to the Calif. contingent to decide whose next in line, followed by the rest of the Calif. contingent before Westcott gets his shot in Texas. My network (in my home) will be out for an undetermined period today for maintenance, so I may not be able to answer queries--not that I'm needed. With a little luck, however, I'll be able to check in quickly.

Jim,

I'm glad you had fun with it. You can leave your form in the box with Hairsonfire's. I'm looking forward to seeing the data.

Ed

Just trying to keep track.

westcott

[edtyct]

God Bless You, Westcott, for doing the heavy lifting. Maybe Jim and/or his designated successor will give us an update.

Ed

[L.J.]

The Spyder is on it's way to me, then I'm thinking Topspeed and SirTT will be the last for Cali. Unless someone else on this end steps up and gives this a run.

[L.J.]

I got the Spyder today. I won't even bother opening the box today and I'll just get to it tomorrow. I'll keep you guys posted.

Topspeed I'll PM you in a couple of days when I'm ready to ship it over.

[Hairsonfire]

Jim, thanks for your thanks. T'was nothin. Glad you had fun, I did too.

[L.J.]

Just a heads up everyone. I ran the Spyder twice on my JVC and will do my bedroom TV tonight. I must say, that I'm pleased with the results so far. I haven't had a chance to do any serious viewing yet but I'll sit down this evening and peep it out.

Set up was very simple and the instructions are clear and easy to understand. The first run took me 31 min and the second took only 23. Use a tripod if you have one. I didn't want tp press the suction cup too hard against my screen, so the tripod worked out great. There is even a warning about using the suction cup on LCD screens.

I should be all finished up tonight and ready to ship to Mr. Topspeed tomorrow. Topspeed you can PM me your shipping info.

[Jim Clark]

I got the Spyder today. I won't even bother opening the box today and I'll just get to it tomorrow. I'll keep you guys posted.

Topspeed I'll PM you in a couple of days when I'm ready to ship it over.

Wow, that was lightning fast. Glad it got there in good shape.

since I have a bit of time I'll type for a spell.

The tutorial DVD was informative and took all of the trepidation I had initially felt. It's rather odd though that the DVD is so poorly recorded. The images are among the fuzziest I've ever seen on a disc. Even when they are showing some of the screen captures it's very difficult to read the words. Given that this is a calibration disc, it just struck me as a bit odd. The information was all there and plainly spelled out though. Even a moron could do this, as I proved.

My laptop is ancient to the point that it stays in the kitchen and functions soley as a recipe book and address book. Needless to say there is no USB port on this thing. No worries, I have a third PC just laying around collecting dust so I just set it up in front of the TV's I was going to play around with. A laptop would have made the process more comfortable but you gotta do what you gotta do. I wasn't able to quickly get the wireless connection going so if there were updates to the software available, I didn't get to download them.

I also used a tripod for the sypder and found it to be a great way to do it. Even though, the suction cup still stuck to my LCD rear projection screen. I'd suggest sliding a piece of tissue paper between the cup and the screen if you're worried about possibly damaging the screen. Luckily I could detect no damage and since the other TV has a glass tube, it was a non-issue. The counter weight was difficult to adjust and I really had to yank on it to get it to slide. That made me nervous since the product wasn't mine and I really didn't want to have to buy Ed a new one. It was sturdy though and held up just fine. Finally, the room was darkened and everything more than warmed up.

So now I'll get into the actual deal here. My main display is a Sony KDF-55XS955 LCD rear projection set. It was previously calibrated using AVIA. I use the Pro Picture mode to have access to additional tweaks as well as lowering the bulb intensity and therefore extend the life of the bulb. During the first run I basically turned off all of the little tweaks and set picture mode to Standard. The results were poor especially were brightness (black level) was concerned. Spyder TV gives you some before/after images to use compare your results with the product. The first image is of a black panther and the cat was very hard to see. The setting was obviously incorrect (originally 31, changed to 17). The weakest aspect of RP LCD tv's is black level and this made everything worse.

Undaunted, I ran the process again going back to the Pro mode that I began with. This time things went much better. The first surprise is that Spyder told me that on both my sets that the best color temperature setting was warm. I'd always used neutral in the past. The second suprise is how similar all of my settings were to the Avia disc which I'll now relate:

Brightness Avia-31 Spyder-31
Contrast* Avia- 46 Spyder-61
Color Avia-31 Spyder-33
Tint Avia-0 Spyder-0
Sharpness--41 No PC tests for sharpness and to be honest even using the test pattern on the DVD I wasn't able to notice any difference from one extreme to the other.

* Possible explanation-Prior to Spyder I was using Sony's Black Level correction setting which as I understand it really cranks up the contrast behind the scenes.

Results seem more than acceptable. Black level seems a bit improved, which it needed. Problematic has always been dark scenes where you can forget about subtle shadow effects. Images appear a bit easier to see, which is a good thing. I'm still going to tweak the pro settings and see if any further improvements can be made. I would have liked to have been able to have Spyder with me but that would have required me hanging on to it for too long.

Bottom line: I seem to have done a reasonably competent job with Avia. Given the cost of the two products Avia seems to be the best choice for the budget conscious user. The Spyder however takes all of the uncertainty out of the equation and gave me, very similar results if I'm correct on the issue of contrast. Spyder was certainly faster. I would have liked to see some PC based tests for sharpness settings but other than that, this product works as advertised. It works so well in fact that if I had a laptop from this decade, I'd buy one for myself and go around and calibrate TV's for everyone I knew for about 25 bucks a pop and pay for it quickly and in the end hopefully make enough extra moola for that new sub I've been coveting. Adding in the cost of a laptop though, probably makes it too expensive of a proposition.

I'd like to thank Ed and SpyderTV for allowing me this really cool trial run. Ed, I copied the main sheet you enclosed and I'll get your mail out tomorrow. Many thanks and I hope everyone enjoys it as much as I did. Hanging out at the AR forums really pays off for me. This remains the best site on the internet thanks to folks like Ed.

Sorry for all of the typos but I've got to run now.

Regards,
jc

[edtyct]

Jim,

Thanks for the report; it'll make my life a lot easier. I look forward to putting it in context with the others, and trust that no one will be swayed by your results. You have the soul of a reviewer.

I appreciate your moving it along, but we should get the system back to you soon so that you can tweak and experiment to your heart's content. I think that you're absolutely right about black level correction; it tries to cure a disease by introducing another one. You end up paying Peter by borrowing from Paul. I don't like Sony's Standard setting myself; it's way too bright and blue. To tell you the truth, I don't like Pro either, which came as a bit of a surprise; it tends to look washed out with ED and HD pictures. I tend toward Vivid, not without some embarrassment. A Sony tech tells me that it measures closest to D65, but I don't have firsthand knowledge to that effect. I'm not surprised at all by Spyder's "warm" recommendation for your set. I also intend to run the test on a Sony rear projector, as well as a JVC flat panel.

Thanks again,
Ed

[L.J.]

just a heads up. the spyer is on it's way to topspeed via fed-x.

thanks ED

[edtyct]

LJ,

My pleasure. Hey, did you notice that AR has a new video forum? I certainly didn't until one of the threads to which I contributed disappeared. Should the Spyder thread be relocated there, too? It's a delicate question; we don't want to drain home theater completely of video. Where should the line be drawn?

Ed

[L.J.]

LJ,

My pleasure. Hey, did you notice that AR has a new video forum? I certainly didn't until one of the threads to which I contributed disappeared. Should the Spyder thread be relocated there, too? It's a delicate question; we don't want to drain home theater completely of video. Where should the line be drawn?

Ed

Yeah, I think there was a heads up on that a couple of weeks ago. I don't see what it would hurt to move the thread. If I wanted to find video calibration info or anything video related, that's the first place I'd look.

BTW, I'll send you my thoughts on the Spyder Monday via email. I was also wondering when the small fee should be sent over?

[edtyct]

Everything at your convenience, LJ.

[westcott]

Undaunted, I ran the process again going back to the Pro mode that I began with. This time things went much better. The first surprise is that Spyder told me that on both my sets that the best color temperature setting was warm. I'd always used neutral in the past. The second suprise is how similar all of my settings were to the Avia disc which I'll now relate:

Regards,
jc

This is one thing AVIA or DVE does not do, tell you what is closest to D65 and that alone is worth the purchase price to me. Thanks for your feedback.

[L.J.]

Everything at your convenience, LJ.

Ed, looks like I'm taking you up on that. I'll get to it when life slows down for me a little. Can you PM your email address for Paypal? Thanks

[topspeed]

Got the Spyder today. Question for those involved in this little experiment:

How long can I have it and who gets it next?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm swamped right now and may not be able to play with it until this weekend. If it needs a fast turnaround, I'll try to squeeze it in.

Thanks.

BTW, I wasn't expecting it to be this small!

[edtyct]

TP,

You can have it until you're done with it. I suspect that waiting until the weekend won't put anyone out. Sir TT is the only other Californian so far, so unless he's indisposed again, a PM to him might be in order.

As for "I wasn't expecting it to be this small," there's a joke there somewhere, but I wouldn't touch it with a . . . ah, never mind.

LJ,

The email address given in the license agreement will work for me. If you don't have it anymore, I'll PM it to you eventually, but no hurry.

Ed

[topspeed]

Just finished first calibration. I think my dvd player settings are off because it is making my sat feed waaay too dark. Feardotcom just happened to be on HBO-HD when I finished and there was a sewer scene (I've never seen the flick) where I couldn't see a flippin' thing. I switched back to my normal settings and it was much better. I'm going to try to dive into the 2910's menu's tomorrow and try again. Just switching the IRE from the default 7.5 to 0 made a huge difference in black levels, so I'm going to give it a go with IRE set at 0 and see what happens. All in all tho, the Spyder is a pretty cool little gadget. I'll give a more indepth review once I'm done.

I'm sorry I'm taking so long with this fellas. My grandma has been in the hospital since Wednesday and unfortunately isn't expected to make it through the week. Family naturally comes first and I haven't had many moments of free time. I appreciate your understanding.

If you're reading this SirT, pm me your shipping address and I'll get it out to you this week.

[edtyct]

TP,

Sorry about your grandmother. Don't sweat the Spyder.

As for black level, technically video or studio black is set at 7.5 IRE, which corresponds to 16 on the digital brightness scale; peak white at the other end is at 235. The full range of black to white is actually 0-255; unlike the broadcast world, the PC world actually uses it. Some DVD players pass information below the video black standard; it's called "below black" or "blacker than black." It creates a little headroom to make sure that black doesn't clip on video material (and also helps in the calibration of displays, as DVE points out). But this discrepancy in standards can create havoc. Material shown at the PC standard in a studio or video environment will not look right, and vice versa. Samsung's DVI DVD players, for instance, mistakenly employed the 0-255 range on video material (DVI originating as a PC format), thereby crushing video black in the process.

I'm not sure why your satellite feed looks too dark; I'm assuming that your DVDs don't, or at least that inherently bright ones don't. Let's see what happens to satellite reception when the Denon has a black set at 0. Maybe the picture will even out.

Edit: By the way, TP, I know that you have a JVC DiLA display. Am I right that each of its inputs is capable of indendent calibration? If so, the DVD input would have had the benefit of the Spyder, but not satellite input. In which case, the overly dark picture on Fear.com may have been due to the broadcast or to the satellite input's user profiile. Sensible?

Ed

[topspeed]

As for black level, technically video or studio black is set at 7.5 IRE, which corresponds to 16 on the digital brightness scale; peak white at the other end is at 235. The full range of black to white is actually 0-255; unlike the broadcast world, the PC world actually uses it. Some DVD players pass information below the video black standard; it's called "below black" or "blacker than black." It creates a little headroom to make sure that black doesn't clip on video material (and also helps in the calibration of displays, as DVE points out). But this discrepancy in standards can create havoc. Material shown at the PC standard in a studio or video environment will not look right, and vice versa. Samsung's DVI DVD players, for instance, mistakenly employed the 0-255 range on video material (DVI originating as a PC format), thereby crushing video black in the process.

Hmmm. I don't know what IRE is, but I'm guessing this is the "below black" that I always hear about. Based on what you are telling me, maybe it would be best to not recalibrate with IRE set to 0? In effect, would this be eliminating the player's ability to go below black?

Edit: By the way, TP, I know that you have a JVC DiLA display. Am I right that each of its inputs is capable of indendent calibration? If so, the DVD input would have had the benefit of the Spyder, but not satellite input. In which case, the overly dark picture on Fear.com may have been due to the broadcast or to the satellite input's user profiile. Sensible?
Ed

Huh, I hadn't thought about that. My dvd is via hdmi while everything else is component and yes, I have to change the input on the monitor. When I brought up the TV's menu to check settings while watching sat, they were all the new settings I had just done, so I don't think the setting are input specific, otherwise they would have defaulted to what I had it at before, right?

Clearly, video isn't my expertise. Just diving into the sub-menu's of the 2910 last night was mind boggling! Chroma delay, black push, gamma something...Holy Confusion, Batman!

[westcott]

Clearly, video isn't my expertise. Just diving into the sub-menu's of the 2910 last night was mind boggling! Chroma delay, black push, gamma something...Holy Confusion, Batman!

I would not be too hard on yourself. Many of us are encouraged that their are people like you who are willing to learn and actually care about audio and video quality.

I wish I had a nickel for every display\dvd player I have seen that has never been changed from the factory settings. Nice DVD player, by the way!

[edtyct]

TP,

IRE is a measure of brightness. Setting the player's brightness at 0 would allow it to pass below black information (that is, darker than 7.5 IRE, or 16 on the digital scale), which is a good thing in many situations. But whether it's a good thing with the Spyder I'm not sure. I don't know how it will process this setting as it calibrates--in other words, whether the system expects video black, which is brighter, or PC black, which would correspond to this 0 setting. It may be flexible enough to adjust accordingly. I think that it would be valuable to test at both of the 2910's settings.

At the risk of confusing you (and me) any more than need be, it is by no means a certainty that a set's HDMI and component inputs will match specs in every case. If you try the calibration via component, as well as HDMI, your results on the sat. input might be different. I'm willing to wait to find out if you're willing. I'd be interested in getting a clearer indication of what causes the picture to vary from one input to the other on your set. I haven't ruled out satellite transmission or Fear.com as the possible culprit, but HDMI vs. component and the black level setting on the 2910 could also be involved. Sorry to do this to you. Regardless of this little conundrum, I bet you were suprised at how easy the Spyder is to use.

Ed

[topspeed]

Very surprised. I'm not techie in the least. Shoot, I had to borrow the laptop and tripod from a friend! The fact that I can use it at all speaks volumes as to its user friendliness. A monkey could use this!

Switching from HDMI to component on my dvd player is a non-starter. My equipment is in a custom wall cabinet of astonishingly poor design (take a wild guess who the designer was ) and that would require pulling it out, switching cables...which run through the walls...and putting it back in. Even feeding it to the AVR is a major endeavor. Sorry, but it's not worth the aggravation.

Now, where did I leave that banana...