Data Color's Spyder TV calibration system, part 2

[hmmmm]

Oh, whoever gets this next, just remember the suction cup thingie is still missing.

[kexodusc]

Hey, it could be my turn for this thing?
Let's give it a day or so for someone else to put in a claim before it leaves the country to come up my way....

[edtyct]

Kexo,

Let's get it to you now. That's how we planned it. I think you'll be wrapping it up.

Ed

[edtyct]

Kexo and hmmm,

Did you guys hook up yet? If so, please update thread. We're getting close to the end. By the way, Topspeed, who has the missing suction cup, recently said that he was sending it along to me. If I get it, and you need it, let me know. Otherwise you'll have to find another way to get the colorimeter to make contact with the screen. Apparently, hmmm did.

Ed

[kexodusc]

I touched base with Hmmm awhile back...I know he had a busy schedule and I trust is making every effort to pass it along - and I'm in no super rush if you aren't Ed. I won't need it for very long.

[westcott]

Kexo and hmmm,

Did you guys hook up yet? If so, please update thread. We're getting close to the end. By the way, Topspeed, who has the missing suction cup, recently said that he was sending it along to me. If I get it, and you need it, let me know. Otherwise you'll have to find another way to get the colorimeter to make contact with the screen. Apparently, hmmm did.

Ed

I have pulled my hair out for the last couple of weeks trying to find the damn thing.

Does this mean I am officially off the hook for the suction cup holder?

[kexodusc]

Westcott, there was a post in this thread a few weeks back from Topspeed explaining he had it...#143

[edtyct]

Westcott,

Topspeed owned up, so I guess you've been absolved. You can put away the self-flagellation kit and start living again.

Kex,

I'm not in a huge rush, but Datacolor is eager to see how the Spyder Jr. fared in the field (and ericl has been asking when he can get his hands on some results). Datacolor has also sent me the Pro version of the Spyder for review, and I don't want to be too far behind in my obligations.

Ed

[kexodusc]

Ed,
Makes sense..I'll fire him off a PM later today if he doesn't catch this thread first - I believe he told me it was being shipped early this week, so it could very well be en route.

[westcott]

I went back and re read some of this thread and realized I really missed a lot when my hard drive caved in.

It will be interesting to read more on the Pro version from a hands on stand point.

I have one recommendation to the mfg. How about a downloadable configuration for your display. Something similar to what Logitech does with its Harmony remote. I could see an interface that could really help you dig deeper into calibration for gamma correction and other settings that are typically left to professional ISF techs for a display with specifics for your particular display. Even known issues with downloadable suggestions to rectify the problems.

Just an idea!

[edtyct]

Your idea brings to a head the limitations in personal calibration devices. Mfgrs have an understandably proprietary position on "unauthorized" use of service controls. They have to protect the initiative of their technicians in the field. Furthermore, untrained amateurs usually do more harm than good to their TVs when they try to access the arcane settings, wasting the valuable time of the technicians who have to rescue them. You can buy a service menu if you want, but the number of people who do so is small, since the codes are like gibberish to the uninitiated.

But Datacolor ColorFacts Pro has the ISFC3 Toolkit that does essentially what you're asking, allowing a calibrator to go directly into ISF-type parameters easily and efficiently. So far as I know only Pioneer offers this type of interface (Brillian offers ISF calibration of its LCoS TVs out of the box).

Datacolor has two "pro" products: the Spyder TV Pro, which targets "installers, system integrators, and IT Pros," and the ColorFacts Professional, which is the domain of "professional calibrators." To tell you the truth, I mixed up the two in my head, expecting Datacolor to send me the latter, which is an elaborate concatenation of measuring devices, capable of integrating with other serious test instruments, all in the service of creating data leaving no stone unturned and keeping complete records via software. The Spyder Pro that I just received days ago outdoes the Spyder that launched this thread; it offers more software control and greyscale calibration capability (when accessible w/o going into buried controls), though it is based on more or less the same principles.

I can't imagine that you will ever find an enthusiast's product that will officially cross the no man's land between the mfgr and enduser that authorized, licensed service technicians occupy. As it stands, the software and colorimeters available now for interested consumers are intended to cover the fundamental flaws in consumer displays out of the box in a way that purports to circumvent human error. The question is whether they can outperform the eye's ability to interpret test screens without introducing their own shortcomings.

I should also mention that the Spyder Pro now in my possession, unlike the Jr. Spyder, works with front projection.

[westcott]

I will start by assuming that you are right and the average person is too stupid to approach advanced calibration an that the display mfgs do not like the idea either.

There is still a lot of data that could be provided to the user via the internet on their specific display to make the process a lot easier and component specific. You could download the dvd settings for your particular dvd and what works best and why, you could do the same for the display. I see the possibilites as almost endless. A database like this would be a very valuable resource. Even if it just told you how many levels of adjustment your display has for each picture setting so you do not have to count them and keep track.

[edtyct]

I wouldn't say "too stupid," just untrained. It's a Pandora's box. The right instruments are expensive and require background sufficient to handle innumerable contingencies. How does a person verify the accuracy of this information, the exactitude of any measurements, and the ability of the display device to calibrate correctly? The community formed by technicians and mfgrs can mitigate difficulties, but anyone who's ever worked with authorized service personnel can tell you that even unlimited access to privileged information doesn't guarantee success.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade; I just want to think out loud about what you're proposing. I see your point about the endless possibilities for component-specific data, but the complications arising from the interactions between, say, DVD players and TVs might be hard to pin down. Assuming, however, that some degree of precision were possible, it would have no guarantee that anyone would, or should, be satisfied with any particular result. It also assumes a lack of variation in specific products out of the box. Frankly, I don't know the extent to which the parameters in video devices stray from each other off the assembly line or how much they drift over time.

Also, who's going to provide this data (assuming that it's possible, Datacolor certainly won't, because it would eliminate any need for its product)? The amount of work that would go into providing such databases might be staggering, anyway. Part of the Spyder's appeal is supposed to be its ease of use, obviating any extra time-consuming steps, maybe even consulting a database. Even after consulting it, you may well want to run a calibration.

Well, there's a little devil's advocate for you.

[GMichael]

I should also mention that the Spyder Pro now in my possession, unlike the Jr. Spyder, works with front projection.

I've been watching for just this statement. How much, and can an average Joe like me make use of it?

[edtyct]

It would be right up your alley. If the Sanyo provides user controls for RGB gain and bias, you can even adjust the greyscale with it. What you need is a DVD player and a laptop or nearby desktop computer with Windows 2000/XP, USB port, at least 800 mhz, 256 MB Ram, 100 MB free drive space, and a video card capable of 1024x768 resolution and 24 bpp color (16.7 million colors). The cost is $600 to $700. Go to the Datacolor website and look for the Spyder TV Pro.

[GMichael]

It would be right up your alley. If the Sanyo provides user controls for RGB gain and bias, you can even adjust the greyscale with it. What you need is a DVD player and a laptop or nearby desktop computer with Windows 2000/XP, USB port, at least 800 mhz, 256 MB Ram, 100 MB free drive space, and a video card capable of 1024x768 resolution and 24 bpp color (16.7 million colors). The cost is $600 to $700. Go to the Datacolor website and look for the Spyder TV Pro.

Thanks Ed,

I knew I was lurking on the thread for a good reason.

[hmmmm]

I touched base with Hmmm awhile back...I know he had a busy schedule and I trust is making every effort to pass it along - and I'm in no super rush if you aren't Ed. I won't need it for very long.

I actually wanted to try this again to see the results. I just filled out the form and will try to get it shipped out by Friday. Thanks for your patience Kex!

[edtyct]

This is just an excuse to raise this thread so that I can get at it easily, but an update would be nice. Kexo, do you have it yet?

[kexodusc]

Had a blast using that little gadget on a few sets.

I must say, I was quite impressed with how well it calibrates a set compared to following Avia or DVE. IMO, not being a pro, it's every bit as capable as either disc with a few exceptions - you won't learn as much about how a TV works, what each setting does etc, so it's less educational, but it's much quicker and easier, which I believe many people would rather have. What it doesn't measure via the colorimeter it offers on the DVD - for example sharpness and other test patterns.

For the majority of non-professionals, this would be a great addition to the HT toolbox. A bit pricey by comparison, perhaps, but definitely easier to use than Avia or DVE.
For any electronics retailer or department store, you'd be foolish not to buy one of these to offer setup at home for a nominal fee, say $20-$30, or something, perhaps done at delivery. It's fast and easy and really does make a big difference over default settings or calibration "by eye".
I think Datacolor could aggressively market this to a/v retailers as a value-adding device. Even Blockbuster and video joints could probably offer it for rent or something - it's an excellent, inexpensive device that would be worth renting on the cheap.
It's not ISF calibration, but it takes only 30-40 minutes and wouldn't cost you $300-$400.

On my set, using DVE and Avia led me to the same settings compared with each other, and the Spyderfor the most part. The Spyder offered a significant different take on the Brightness and Contrast, however. I tried a few different lighting settings, just to make sure it wasn't being skewed by ambient light.

The setup DVD's suggested 46 brightness, and 38 contrast (range 0-100) on my Toshiba 51" RPTV. This made the overall picture a bit dark, but also cleaned up the image.

Spyder suggested lowering the Brightness a bit to 44 (which wasn't insubstantial despite being only 2 clicks) but to jack the Contrast up to an amazing 62. First thing I thought was why is it pushing my contrast to Torch Mode levels (100 on my set.)

Odd. To my naked, untrained eye the pictures are more just a bit more dynamic, dark night scenes are more a bit more detailed during daylight hours now especially, and slightly easier to follow. At night, the differences aren't really that noticeable most of the time. The overall picture is brigther but not nearly as bad as the best default option, which just slipped them both to "50". Dunno if it was just me but the 3 sets I used this on which were calibrated with DVE/Avia all saw the contrast go up and brightness go down.

Don't know if this is a case of one being more accurate than the other, or me making mistakes during Avia or DVE, but I ran enough tests over very different light settings to feel comfortable that human error was minimal. Still flip back and forth between the Avia and Syder recommendations, don't know which I prefer yet.

Anyway, a great big thanks to edtyct, who obvioulsy put in a lot of time and effort in order to make all this possible. This is the kind of a/v enthusiast "community building" stuff a site like this can offer. He gets my vote for ar.com-er of the year!

Now, if anyone wants to offer to send around a set of Focus Audio Master Series FM-2's, lemme know....

[allan_37]

Just curoius how do you use the sharpness test pattern supplied with spyder TV in the additional test pattern section.