Data Color's Spyder TV calibration system, part 2

[edtyct]

Well, the designer didn't figure on this little wrinkle; don't be too hard on him. And we can live without the information. Can you do the calibration with the "0" black-level setting to see how it looks with DVD and satellite? If you notice no difference on a suitable DVD (use one with dark scenes, like outer space, or Dark City, etc.), then the Spyder's calibration may not be video-black specific. Then maybe you could ask the satellite company, HBO, etc., to run Fear.com again for you.

[topspeed]

Ed, I found this interesting article while doing research on avsforums:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...89#post4969789

According to this, the IRE setting should have no affect as long as the tv has been recalibrated. This makes sense, as the Spyder should simply compensate for the different black level by adjusting the brightness and contrast. I'll do it anyway and let you know. Besides, it's fun!

[edtyct]

Yeah, that's a good one, and I'm as guilty as the next guy of treating IRE as if it were a universal standard like the digital brightness scale. The operative word in your post is "should," but even Wiggles leaves some wiggle room (sorry) for a TV not reacting well to a change of IRE or a digital connection being affected by it, which shouldn't happen under normal circumstances. Then there's the possibility of the satellite broadcast being miscalibrated. Let's see what happens in your case.

[topspeed]

Well, apparently we should definitely pay attention to the DVD player's settings as well.

As you know, after calibrating with the factory default setting of IRE -7.5, the picture was simply too dark. LCoS' don't possess class leading black levels as it is, and after calibration everything just blended together with very little definition along the edges. Different gradiations (sp?) of grey and black were non existent. Needless to say, I was somewhat less than pleased.

Last night I set the IRE to 0 on the 2910 and tried again...

Now we're talkin'!

The color and tint were almost identical to the previous settings, however contrast and particularly brightness were dramatically altered. The end result is a visibly superior picture to what was before. I programmed the previous settings into my set allowing me to alternate between "before calibration" settings and "after" with the push of a button. Watching Discovery HD's "Return to Flight", I froze the picture at the launch of the space shuttle. The difference was dramatic. At the previous settings, the billows of smoke from the launch looked good, but it wasn't until I switched to the new settings that I realized all of the depth and definition within the smoke that I was missing. Unseen layers of grey were revealed that had been washed out before! For lack of a better term, it appeared 3D. I actually said "Wow" out loud (mind you, I'm sitting in the dark by myself ). Color and tint weren't much different from the factory settings, although there was apparently a bit of a red push. Nothing major and certainly not offensive. It would be the difference between Red Dye #4 and Red Dye #5. The change in colors was nothing compared the difference in black and grey levels.

Because the Spyder is so easy to use, I decided to check its settings one more time with the IRE set to -7.5. It gave me almost the exact same recommendations as the previous -7.5 calibration (brightness was a few clicks different, that's all). However, the Spyder had a heck of a time setting contrast this time. It must have checked and rechecked the settings...and I'm not making this up...20 or 30 times! It took as long to set the contrast as it did to calibrate every other setting combined. It didn't do that either the first time at -7.5 or at 0.

This is a terrific product for those of us that are, er...technically challenged. The dvd instruction is short, straight forward, and very informative. There is no guess work involved with this process. Once you get the hang of it, calibrating a set takes around 20 minutes and the results far exceed the time invested. If I were to change anything, it would be to make accessing the advanced calibration settings easier. It says to open the "Tools" section, but I sure couldn't find it. It's too bad, as I do have a sharpness setting and would have liked to calibrate that as well as a few other things.

All in all, I'm extremely pleased with the results and like Jim, am eternally grateful for Ed's generosity as well as all of the other terrific members of AR. This really is a great place to learn and share information. I've learned far more here than in any magazine.

I've pm'd SirT for his address and will ship it out as soon as I can.

Thanks again, Ed.

[westcott]

Last night I set the IRE to 0 on the 2910 and tried again...

Now we're talkin'!



Thanks again, Ed.

Thanks for the update and I am glad you got the 2910 dialed in, as well.

[edtyct]

TP,

My pleasure. I'm glad that the 0 IRE setting worked out, but I must admit to being stumped about why it cured your particular ill. If anyone has any ideas, let'em rip. The Spyder's trouble reading the 7.5 IRE signal might be telling. Somehow it seemed to interpret it, incorrectly, as giving a false video black, impelling it to set the brightness, and possibly the contrast, too low. But this is pure speculation on my part. When I get all of the data back, and run the test myself on a variety of displays, I'll see if this anomaly turns up elsewhere. It might be worth asking Datacolor about what might be causing it. Unfortunately, I don't think that we have any more LCoS sets on the docket for comparison on that variable, but I know a Sony dealer who might let me try the Spyder on one. But JVCs and Sonys are different animals. We'll see. But I'm thrilled that your results were so dramatic at 0 IRE, and gratified that you guys are having fun.

Ed

[westcott]

TP,

My pleasure. I'm glad that the 0 IRE setting worked out, but I must admit to being stumped about why it cured your particular ill. If anyone has any ideas, let'em rip. The Spyder's trouble reading the 7.5 IRE signal might be telling. Somehow it seemed to interpret it, incorrectly, as giving a false video black, impelling it to set the brightness, and possibly the contrast, too low. But this is pure speculation on my part. When I get all of the data back, and run the test myself on a variety of displays, I'll see if this anomaly turns up elsewhere. It might be worth asking Datacolor about what might be causing it. Unfortunately, I don't think that we have any more LCoS sets on the docket for comparison on that variable, but I know a Sony dealer who might let me try the Spyder on one. But JVCs and Sonys are different animals. We'll see. But I'm thrilled that your results were so dramatic at 0 IRE, and gratified that you guys are having fun.

Ed

I have a possible reason but I would have to know if you are using HDMI or DVI on the display and the player. I assume HDMI but if not, the reason could be that DVI is an 8 bit RGB signal, while HDMI can be 8 bit RGB, or 8 bit, 10 bit, or 12 bit YCbCr. If you have a DVI source and DVI display, there will be no problem. If you have a DVI source and an HDMI display, again, no problem. If however, you have an HDMI source and a DVI display, the below-black video information may be lost in the translation. There is a bug in the Silicon Image HDMI transmitter that pops up when converting YCbCr to RGB.

[topspeed]

Ed,
At 7.5, the Spyder had the brightness really, really low and the contrast really, really high. It was an odd combination that created a very poor picture.

Westcott,
I'm using HDMI directly from the 2910 to the JVC. Denon uses Faroudja chips on this model, if that matters.

Just out of curiosity, if I'm using a HDMI connection, does that mean the vid processing is being done by the monitor instead of the player (i.e. like a digital connection for audio)? Or is it that the scaling is being done by the monitor. I have a basic idea, but I'm not crystal clear on the difference between a video processor and a scaler.

[westcott]

Ed,
At 7.5, the Spyder had the brightness really, really low and the contrast really, really high. It was an odd combination that created a very poor picture.

Westcott,
I'm using HDMI directly from the 2910 to the JVC. Denon uses Faroudja chips on this model, if that matters.

Just out of curiosity, if I'm using a HDMI connection, does that mean the vid processing is being done by the monitor instead of the player (i.e. like a digital connection for audio)? Or is it that the scaling is being done by the monitor. I have a basic idea, but I'm not crystal clear on the difference between a video processor and a scaler.

I apologize. I thought you had the 2900. The only other thing that I did not here you discuss was the nomenclature found in your manual for IRE settings\black levels via HDMI. Studio RGB levels are the correct setting and allow for below black and above white information. I believe they offer the choice of Studio (normal) or PC (enhanced) RGB levels.This is easy to test for with a gray ramp such as the one found on Avia Pro or Digital Video Essentials.

I do not know how the Spyder handles below black information when calibrating but the below black and above white information found in Studio RGB levels are important in digital displays and can reduce contouring artifacts associated with some of them.

I like to use the word video processor because it covers a whole gammut of things that a video processor does to a signal. Video processors can be found in all types of video components and all of them are responsible for part or all of the signal arriving to the display.

Which device is doing what is a long topic but a very general answer to your question is that the source device does quite a bit, the display device may or may not do much, if any video processing, depending on what signal is sent from the source. If the display receives a native resolution that is supported, the display may not do much.

The best advice I could give you is to read through the articles I have linked to to get a better feel for what a some of the video processors are tasked with and what devices they are found in like scalers, DVD players, display devices, and dedicated video processors\scalers.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...on-9-2000.html

Make sure you go through the 6 or 7 articles in the index and if you want more, scan through the feature articles on the website.

Hope this helps.

[edtyct]

TP,

If you're using HDMI from the DVD player, it's doing the scaling and deinterlacing, unless you've chosen, and the Denon allows, 480i to be sent digitally. Whatever else the JVC itself does to the Denon's signal is proprietary, possibly best considered an intrusion--not to say that such intrusions aren't everyday occurrences. Some of them are flaws, and some of them are voluntary "enhancements."

Hi Wescott,

You should be getting your hands on the Spyder within a couple of weeks, I would think. On the matter you raised before Speedy (gotta love it) posted again, 12 bit is a rare bird at this point; most signals come at us in 8 bit clips and occasionally 10 bits from a DVD player. However, there's no guarantee that a DVD player that employs 10-bit processing will meet a display that always has 10 bits available for its own processing, even if it claims as much. Under the conditions that you mention, what you might see on certain displays (large ones, anyway) is some banding, some false contours, and possibly grainy color-depth artifacts, but not a change in black level per se. That said, I may not understand what the Silicon Image bug is. I assume that Secrets ratted it out. Do you have details?

Ed

[westcott]

TP,

If you're using HDMI from the DVD player, it's doing the scaling and deinterlacing, unless you've chosen, and the Denon allows, 480i to be sent digitally. Whatever else the JVC itself does to the Denon's signal is proprietary, possibly best considered an intrusion--not to say that such intrusions aren't everyday occurrences. Some of them are flaws, and some of them are voluntary "enhancements."

Hi Wescott,

You should be getting your hands on the Spyder within a couple of weeks, I would think. On the matter you raised before Speedy (gotta love it) posted again, 12 bit is a rare bird at this point; most signals come at us in 8 bit clips and occasionally 10 bits from a DVD player. However, there's no guarantee that a DVD player that employs 10-bit processing will meet a display that always has 10 bits available for its own processing, even if it claims as much. Under the conditions that you mention, what you might see on certain displays (large ones, anyway) is some banding, some false contours, and possibly grainy color-depth artifacts, but not a change in black level per se. That said, I may not understand what the Silicon Image bug is. I assume that Secrets ratted it out. Do you have details?

Ed

There is a lot of good information that is scattered througout the shootout that is very useful but hard to find because it usually pertains to a certain test or video processor that is undergoing evaluation. I found the Silicon Image problem under the 2900 review, which is what I thought he had, at first.The SI problem only seems to occur when going from HDMI source to a DVI display.


Since he has the 2910, the information I provided on bit depth was somewhat of a red herring.

I bring up the Studio RGB idea because it was the only other thing I could think of that could affect the IRE levels.

I can not wait to see what can be done with the Spyder and may even see if I can get it to work on my front projector too.

[edtyct]

Yeah, it's a bit of a mystery. The PC vs. Studio numerical brightness scales shouldn't interfere with IRE, which pertains only to analog, but strange and wondrous complications occur inside a digital TV set. Datacolor sent me a press release, which is buried somewhere in my computer. It contained info about their more elaborate colorimeter earmarked for projection systems. I posted a link to it in answer to someone's question on that point in this thread--GMichael maybe. You might be able to find it. I don't think you'll have much luck with this version, although I do recall people scrambling to adapt it when it first emerged. Keep me posted.

Ed

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The spydar has arrived. Ed, how long do I get to have it. I will not be able to do anything until the weekend. When, and how do we pay you ole chap?

[edtyct]

Hi Sir TT,

Long time no speak. I think we've been letting people's schedules dictate. Most everyone so far has had to wait until the weekend. We're not in any particular rush. Your situation will be especially significant, since you're starting from a professional calibration. If you have a second TV that you want to include, go for it. The $14.00 payment can be a check to the Massachusetts address or a Paypal payment to the Comcast email address listed on the note that explains how to register the software. That reminds me; I have to thank Jim Clark, and he overpaid.

Ed

[Jim Clark]

If I did, it wasn't by much. Consider it interest since I was late in mailing it off in the first place. Glad it got there though.

Thanks again,
jc

[westcott]

I had not received any email or packages so I thought I would pull this back to the top to see where we are at.

Hope everyone had a nice Passover\Easter holiday!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Hey all,
After dealing with a rollout deadline that was moved up one month, and a tragic death in my family, I have finally finished with the spydar.

Just a quick word on how I worked with it. It was absolutely no help on my reference system, as it was calibrated using a much more sophisticated measuring device than the spydar is. So I tried it on my 55" analog television in what I call studio A, my old bedroom that is being converted to house a smaller hometheater. It has two component video inputs with each input having the ability to be independently calibrated. I used two identical DVD players hooked to these inputs.

I calibrated one input using video essentials, the other using the spydar. Before making any calibrations I adjusted the convergence. I will share my results when I finish writing them up.

Who is next in line? Thanks for your patience, especially you Ed.

[westcott]

Thought I would drag this to the top.

[edtyct]

Thanks, westcott. Hey, Sir TT, old wescott's next in line. I'll leave it to this thread for you guys to arrange the transfer. If I don't read anything here for a while, I'll get in touch with you guys.

[topspeed]

Hey Ed,

Just curious, do bulbs in LCoS sets slowly dim or do they just go. Mine went in two stages: First it was noticeably dimmer and a day later it "popped" and went bye-bye altogether. The reason I'm asking is that the calibration was done just a week or two before the bulb blew and now I'm wondering if my old settings are correct with the new bulb? Do you know how these things burn? Is it gradual or wham-bam-thank-you-'mam?

[edtyct]

They slowly drop in brightness over time, something that the LEDs that I mentioned in the other neighborhood don't do during their 20,000 hrs. of life. If you saw a definite drop in brightness before yours popped, that was probably a bad sign. Usually the decline is so gradual that you don't notice it. You might be able to turn the brightness and contrast down a bit with the new bulb, but the old settings might work out okay. AVIA or DVE might come in handy for a quick look.

[topspeed]

Thanks, that's what I thought. This thing is as bright as the sun with the previous settings. I'll recalibrate.

[westcott]

Hey Ed,

Just curious, do bulbs in LCoS sets slowly dim or do they just go. Mine went in two stages: First it was noticeably dimmer and a day later it "popped" and went bye-bye altogether. The reason I'm asking is that the calibration was done just a week or two before the bulb blew and now I'm wondering if my old settings are correct with the new bulb? Do you know how these things burn? Is it gradual or wham-bam-thank-you-'mam?

The lamp in my projector did the same exact thing. It started getting noticeably dimmer, so I recalibrated and turned it on the high setting.

The lamp popped about two weeks later at only 1000+ hours. Not good.

I do believe that my inability to tell if the projector is in standby or off contributed to its early failure. The projector would come on unexpectedly and I would have to shut the unit down again. This can be very hard on a lamp filament and where most wear and tear occurs.

I have taken more care to make sure the projector is off now and we will see what happens.

How is it coming TT?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The lamp in my projector did the same exact thing. It started getting noticeably dimmer, so I recalibrated and turned it on the high setting.

The lamp popped about two weeks later at only 1000+ hours. Not good.

I do believe that my inability to tell if the projector is in standby or off contributed to its early failure. The projector would come on unexpectedly and I would have to shut the unit down again. This can be very hard on a lamp filament and where most wear and tear occurs.

I have taken more care to make sure the projector is off now and we will see what happens.

How is it coming TT?

Westcott,
PM me your address do I can forward the spydar to you. I have calibrated just about everything in sight, so its time to shoot it towards you.

[topspeed]

Ummm...What happened to the Spyder?