Why I'm a bad audiophile

[KaiWinters]

In my opinion the "average" audio enthusiast would not hear "all of the differences" between the "super" system and "average" high end system...no offense intended...used as a reference word only.
The reason is training...it takes listening time, comparisons, etc...time is the key...to develop an ear...similar to a wine conniseur imo.
When I was a precision mechanical inspector I eventually developed an eye to see .001 without mechanical aid...it took several years of work and experience...it also faded away after long disuse. The ears work the same way...it takes time and training to actually hear the nuances and subtle differences of audio at that end of the spectrum.

There are "trophy" audiophiles out there just like in everything...then there are those that squeeze every bit of quaility out of their equiptment simply for the pleasure and joy of the listening experience.
Another analogy: I raced bicycles for 18 years, retired now due to injuries, my last bike cost well over $5000 not including my gear. Some people would say, when asking cost, it is just a bike what is the difference? Well the difference is confidence in the materials and craftsmanship when carving a 90 degree turn at 35 mph in a field of 75+ riders close enough to rub thighs and knowing your bike, and skills, will allow you to hold that line without touching brakes or moving out of your line...also is the confidence to hit speeds of 65mph down an S turn mountain road in Killington VT without the slightest front end shimmy and wishing you had more/bigger gears to get a bit more speed.
That is the difference and sometimes it is subtle when compared to bikes of slightly lesser quality but usually dramatic compared to the average bike. But like all things it took time and training to be able to use that bike to the degree it was capable of and a "Pro" racer could/does squeeze even more performance out of it than I could.

I could certainly have ridden a less expensive bike that would almost do what I have just described but it would not be the same and would not let me compete at the level I competed. My bike was average in the field...meaning we all had similarly costly bikes.


There are also a great many trophy bike riders out there that would not take their $7000 Colnago out in the rain, never raced nor even ridden hard and cried the first day the frame got a chip. I am glad they can ride such a bike and do not decry their purchase as a waste of money...there are far worse ways to spend money...they loved their bikes and kept the industry humming.

[Bernd]

In my opinion the "average" audio enthusiast would not hear "all of the differences" between the "super" system and "average" high end system...no offense intended...used as a reference word only.
The reason is training...it takes listening time, comparisons, etc...time is the key...to develop an ear...similar to a wine conniseur imo.
When I was a precision mechanical inspector I eventually developed an eye to see .001 without mechanical aid...it took several years of work and experience...it also faded away after long disuse. The ears work the same way...it takes time and training to actually hear the nuances and subtle differences of audio at that end of the spectrum.

There are "trophy" audiophiles out there just like in everything...then there are those that squeeze every bit of quaility out of their equiptment simply for the pleasure and joy of the listening experience.
Another analogy: I raced bicycles for 18 years, retired now due to injuries, my last bike cost well over $5000 not including my gear. Some people would say, when asking cost, it is just a bike what is the difference? Well the difference is confidence in the materials and craftsmanship when carving a 90 degree turn at 35 mph in a field of 75+ riders close enough to rub thighs and knowing your bike, and skills, will allow you to hold that line without touching brakes or moving out of your line...also is the confidence to hit speeds of 65mph down an S turn mountain road in Killington VT without the slightest front end shimmy and wishing you had more/bigger gears to get a bit more speed.
That is the difference and sometimes it is subtle when compared to bikes of slightly lesser quality but usually dramatic compared to the average bike. But like all things it took time and training to be able to use that bike to the degree it was capable of and a "Pro" racer could/does squeeze even more performance out of it than I could.

Well said. What a good post.

Peace

Bernd

[E-Stat]

I only mean to convey that I don't obsess about searching for hypothetical improvements...

Neither do I. I evaluate those improvements I know exist through direct experience.

But yes, it's true that I am skeptical about the benefits of costly tweaks such as $1000 power cords. (1) Will there be a significant improvement? (2) Will the expenditure really provide value [

So was I. Until I heard some in my own system for a week. Significant improvement? No. Value? Value lies in the eyes (and wallet) of the beholder. It also depends upon those aspects of the musical experience that are most important to you.

Skeptic was all about flat response. He spent years tweaking his two EQs to get his AR-9s to be flat. Resolution, however, was clearly unimportant to him. While boasting of living in a million dollar house and making over a million dollars in real estate, he chose to use a 1974 H-K Citation preamp (I owned one thirty years ago myself) and a Dynaco ST-120 amp with MOSFETs. To each his own.

As for me, I relate to music not only on an emotional level, but on a mental one as well. It is a way for me to keep my mind busy. Music is always running through my head. As a result, I delight in hearing previously unheard of detail found deeper in my music. The kind that better cables provide. Is that a 5% improvement? 2%? Who knows. It is, however, important to me.

There is far more information "trapped" in recordings that most folks give credit for. Even pop recordings like Madonna. I can still clearly remember first hearing the "Ray of Light" album on HP's incredible system. I had never really heard it before. The image size dissolved the walls. All of the instrumental rhythms were laid bare and revealed in their entirety. I now understand his notion of "authority". Completely effortless sound with significant HF energy - yet not sounding the least bit bright.

rw

[GMichael]

In my opinion the "average" audio enthusiast would not hear "all of the differences" between the "super" system and "average" high end system...no offense intended...used as a reference word only.
The reason is training...it takes listening time, comparisons, etc...time is the key...to develop an ear...similar to a wine conniseur imo.
When I was a precision mechanical inspector I eventually developed an eye to see .001 without mechanical aid...it took several years of work and experience...it also faded away after long disuse. The ears work the same way...it takes time and training to actually hear the nuances and subtle differences of audio at that end of the spectrum.

There are "trophy" audiophiles out there just like in everything...then there are those that squeeze every bit of quaility out of their equiptment simply for the pleasure and joy of the listening experience.
Another analogy: I raced bicycles for 18 years, retired now due to injuries, my last bike cost well over $5000 not including my gear. Some people would say, when asking cost, it is just a bike what is the difference? Well the difference is confidence in the materials and craftsmanship when carving a 90 degree turn at 35 mph in a field of 75+ riders close enough to rub thighs and knowing your bike, and skills, will allow you to hold that line without touching brakes or moving out of your line...also is the confidence to hit speeds of 65mph down an S turn mountain road in Killington VT without the slightest front end shimmy and wishing you had more/bigger gears to get a bit more speed.
That is the difference and sometimes it is subtle when compared to bikes of slightly lesser quality but usually dramatic compared to the average bike. But like all things it took time and training to be able to use that bike to the degree it was capable of and a "Pro" racer could/does squeeze even more performance out of it than I could.

I could certainly have ridden a less expensive bike that would almost do what I have just described but it would not be the same and would not let me compete at the level I competed. My bike was average in the field...meaning we all had similarly costly bikes.


There are also a great many trophy bike riders out there that would not take their $7000 Colnago out in the rain, never raced nor even ridden hard and cried the first day the frame got a chip. I am glad they can ride such a bike and do not decry their purchase as a waste of money...there are far worse ways to spend money...they loved their bikes and kept the industry humming.

Interesting. When I compare this to my experiences, I see similarities in my billiard world. I have many pool cues now. Started with a $50 cue and have gone as far as spending $5000 on one. The $5000 one does hit better. But it was more the feeling of shooting with a hand made, one of a kind, piece of art, cue that made me feel like I could do anything. I made more shots because I believed I could. But in the end I used my $800 cue more than any of the others. It was technically "better" than even the 5k one.
There were/are many types of players out there as well. I know guys/girls who have spent $20k on a cue and I can beat them 9 out of 10 times. I also know people who use house cues and all I would get to do is watch & rack.

[Bernd]

Interesting. When I compare this to my experiences, I see similarities in my billiard world. I have many pool cues now. Started with a $50 cue and have gone as far as spending $5000 on one. The $5000 one does hit better. But it was more the feeling of shooting with a hand made, one of a kind, piece of art, cue that made me feel like I could do anything. I made more shots because I believed I could. But in the end I used my $800 cue more than any of the others. It was technically "better" than even the 5k one.
There were/are many types of players out there as well. I know guys/girls who have spent $20k on a cue and I can beat them 9 out of 10 times. I also know people who use house cues and all I would get to do is watch & rack.

I know what you mean Mike.
I have a bespoke Holland & Holland side by side amongst several other shootguns. On a very expensive shoot day I take the Holland and it shoots beautiful and makes you feel good for owning such a finely crafted piece, but on ordinary days I take the Beretta and it also shoots great and strangely enough I feel more comfortable with it.
Go figure.

Peace

Bernd

[E-Stat]

The reason is training...it takes listening time, comparisons, etc...time is the key...to develop an ear...similar to a wine conniseur imo.

When I was first exposed to critical listening with professional audio reviewers at 18, I certainly did not comprehend the full measure of differences they would identify. Over time, I was taught how to listen and what to listen for. I was also introduced to classical music in a big way during those years. Today, those mentors (both in their sixties) are still able to discern finer differences than I.

I trust, however, you would consider the performance differences you noted with the Colnago to be more than "hypothetical".

rw

[Feanor]

I know what you mean Mike.
I have a bespoke Holland & Holland side by side amongst several other shootguns. On a very expensive shoot day I take the Holland and it shoots beautiful and makes you feel good for owning such a finely crafted piece, but on ordinary days I take the Beretta and it also shoots great and strangely enough I feel more comfortable with it.
Go figure.

Peace

Bernd

I mean your H&H, Bernd. "Trophies" are the dialiance of the rich whom I can only envy.

But as you say, "If you can't run - walk". I can't affort capuccino, I have to settle for coffee.

[Feanor]

...
Value? Value lies in the eyes (and wallet) of the beholder. It also depends upon those aspects of the musical experience that are most important to you.
...
rw

Of necessity, sad to say

What I tend to look for is transparency, viz. detail, spatial clues, separation of voices and instruments, "air" around the performers. I won't sacrifice these for smoothness, depth, bloom or harmonic richness (whatever they are). I do value good frequency response because, as a person reasonably familiar with live accoutic instrument sound, I find flat sounds more like real.

[E-Stat]

What I tend to look for is transparency, viz. detail, spatial clues, separation of voices and instruments, "air" around the performers. I won't sacrifice these for smoothness, depth, bloom or harmonic richness (whatever they are).

You have a really good system that I think is capable of a bit more. Of all the systems in HP's house, there is only one pair of speakers found among the hundreds of thousands of dollars of gear (and cable) that he actually bought with his own money. The envelope please? MG 1.6s. Take this advice or leave it: buy a Monster HTS-1000 conditioner for around $50 US on Ebay and plug everything but the power amp into it.

I recently bought another one for my vintage system. Differences? Subtle to be sure. A bit blacker or quieter. More inner detail. Wisps from vocalizations are more apparent. You can better hear the squeak of strings. Everything sounds a bit less bright. I find the last level of improvement not at all "impressive" sounding in the usual audio cowboy sense of the word. It may not be immediately apparent either. Play your favorite recordings and I think you'll discover those passages where the recording reveals more of itself to you.

That is where I find the joy.

rw

[Florian]

I agree with E-Stat its in the eye of the beholder. Others dont have to agree, but i can hear the differences between the base my DAC sits on. Powercords, speaker cables, amps, preamps, CD Transport and 1in movements. I can hear the difference between capacitors and spools or the solder from Home Depot or Silver solder. I want to reach audio nirvana and will do what it takes to get there. If others dont, thats fine but dont hate those who do.

-Flo

PS: Tweaking is fun, and reaching more and more is part of the hobby for me. I get my joy from that too. Its 3AM in the morning and i just increased the capacitance of my super tweeter from 28uF to 44uF and cant sleep. I listen to music for hrs and hrs non stop and its one hell of a ride.

[Feanor]

You have a really good system that I think is capable of a bit more. Of all the systems in HP's house, there is only one pair of speakers found among the hundreds of thousands of dollars of gear (and cable) that he actually bought with his own money. The envelope please? MG 1.6s. Take this advice or leave it: buy a Monster HTS-1000 conditioner for around $50 US on Ebay and plug everything but the power amp into it.
...
rw

Currently my power delivery chain consists of:

Tripp Lite IS1000 isolation transformer
Belden/Wattgate cable
PS Audio Ultimate Outlet
Belden/Wattgate cable
Bel Canto eVo2i

... same PS Audio
attached cable
Sony SCD-CE775

... same Tripp Lite
attached or 16 g. cables
other components

The Tripp Lite and PS Audio might be effect from a protection point of view, but neither they not the Belden cable made any difference to the sound that I could hear -- then, as I said above, I don't go nuts A/B'ing components listening for tiny differences.


In the past I have had the impression that speaker cables, and even interconnects, have actually made a small difference. But recently I swapped Nordost Flat Line Gold single cables for Monster 14 g. bi-wires, however I heard no difference.

[Bernd]

I mean your H&H, Bernd. "Trophies" are the dialiance of the rich whom I can only envy.

But as you say, "If you can't run - walk". I can't affort capuccino, I have to settle for coffee.

Hi Feanor,

I am far from rich, I was just fortunate that the risks that I've taken rolled my way.It could have been oh so different!
The H&H was a birthday present from my Dad.Once you fortunate enough to own something special a different kind of pride in ownership comes into it, for me anyway. And I drink coffee (black,no sugar) most of the time, too. Capuccino is a little bit too poncy for me.
You also mentioned that you had a brake from the audio hobby and I too in the late 80's early 90s had a sabatical from serious audio to build up my business (18-20 hours work a day, 7 days a week), which I had to sell in' 93 due to health problems. That was the time span when I sold most of my Vinyl collection to replace them with the "perfect sound forever" little silver discs. Something I'll regret to this day, but it fired up my enthusiasm even more.So now I have almost replaced all those lost records again with Vinyl, and they will not leave again from here.

Peace

Bernd

[PAT.P]

[QUOTE=Florian]I agree with E-Stat its in the eye of the beholder. Others dont have to agree, but i can hear the differences between the base my DAC sits on. Powercords, speaker cables, amps, preamps, CD Transport and 1in movements. I can hear the difference between capacitors and spools or the solder from Home Depot or Silver solder. I want to reach audio nirvana and will do what it takes to get there. If others dont, thats fine but dont hate those who do. __________________________________________________ ________________________ What have you been smoking Flo ?If you could hear sound difference from solder I could smell somebody having coffee,someone having a smoke from speakers.Know that imaging What are your ears rated 60khz?

[GMichael]

What have you been smoking Flo ?If you could hear sound difference from solder I could smell somebody having coffee,someone having a smoke from speakers.Know that imaging What are your ears rated 60khz?

Hi Pat P.

I am drinking coffee right now. Can you tell me how long I ground the beans before I put them in the maker?

[L.J.]

Hi Pat P.

I am drinking coffee right now. Can you tell me how long I ground the beans before I put them in the maker?

Well what kinda taste are you going for? Can you tell the diff between grinding for 30 sec vs for 45 sec?

[Resident Loser]

[QUOTE=PAT.P]

I agree with E-Stat its in the eye of the beholder. Others dont have to agree, but i can hear the differences between the base my DAC sits on. Powercords, speaker cables, amps, preamps, CD Transport and 1in movements. I can hear the difference between capacitors and spools or the solder from Home Depot or Silver solder. I want to reach audio nirvana and will do what it takes to get there. If others dont, thats fine but dont hate those who do. __________________________________________________ ________________________ What have you been smoking Flo ?If you could hear sound difference from solder I could smell somebody having coffee,someone having a smoke from speakers.Know that imaging What are your ears rated 60khz?

...he doesn't know how to solder and is making cold joints...after all the solder is only supposed to encapsulate the joint... the basic mechanical (and therefore electrical) connection needs to be tight and have proper conductor-to-conductor contact...that is what counts...

jimHJJ(...Eutectic solders don't make up for lousy craftsmanship...)

[GMichael]

Well what kinda taste are you going for? Can you tell the diff between grinding for 30 sec vs for 45 sec?

That depends on if it's raining on not.

[PAT.P]

Hi Pat P.

I am drinking coffee right now. Can you tell me how long I ground the beans before I put them in the maker?

All depends on the watts of your grinder,the brand of grinder and crossover of grinder

[PAT.P]

Well what kinda taste are you going for? Can you tell the diff between grinding for 30 sec vs for 45 sec?

The 45 sec would be a finer grind not as robust as a 30 sec grind.

[PAT.P]

That depends on if it's raining on not.

What about how its being serve ?Does it taste the same in a mug than what it would taste in stainless steel travel mug or plastic mug.If you have coffee in a tea cup ,does it taste like tea or coffee?

[GMichael]

What about how its being serve ?Does it taste the same in a mug than what it would taste in stainless steel travel mug or plastic mug.If you have coffee in a tea cup ,does it taste like tea or coffee?

My grinder has a low cross of 700hts and a high of 2k. It's 20megawatts into 1.56 ohms. 45 secs turns the grinds into dust and they become airborne. At 30 secs it comes out just right. Coffee should never be served in a tea cup! It kiils the taste. Plastic or SS travel mugs are out too. It should always be severed at 175F. In a 5.4oz mug made of ceramic clay that was heated to 756F and then glazed with an african pottery glaze that I'm not alowd to tell you the name of. You can take it black or with half & half. Never ever with milk. Light cream is OK for special occasions. No more than 1 sugar. No artificial sweeters either. On sunny days it should be served from the upper left. Lower left on rainy days. For extra pionts you can also serve those little cheese biscuts with real butter.
Can you smell it yet?

[PAT.P]

My grinder has a low cross of 700hts and a high of 2k. It's 20megawatts into 1.56 ohms. 45 secs turns the grinds into dust and they become airborne. At 30 secs it comes out just right. Coffee should never be served in a tea cup! It kiils the taste. Plastic or SS travel mugs are out too. It should always be severed at 175F. In a 5.4oz mug made of ceramic clay that was heated to 756F and then glazed with an african pottery glaze that I'm not alowd to tell you the name of. You can take it black or with half & half. Never ever with milk. Light cream is OK for special occasions. No more than 1 sugar. No artificial sweeters either. On sunny days it should be served from the upper left. Lower left on rainy days. For extra pionts you can also serve those little cheese biscuts with real butter.
Can you smell it yet?

I want your coffee ,Im having one that was brew in a coffee maker with store bought grind,Im out of biscuts and tea biscuit are not the same.I need to mask the taste with some Irish Cream.I notice you play Billiard ,does the table have slate or only plywood?Does the ball roll faster on slate table?Do you have a table or do you hustle in Pool Hall I want a table but wife said I need to get rid of all my old receiver and speakers I have'nt played in a long time and really enjoy it

[GMichael]

I want your coffee ,Im having one that was brew in a coffee maker with store bought grind,Im out of biscuts and tea biscuit are not the same.I need to mask the taste with some Irish Cream.I notice you play Billiard ,does the table have slate or only plywood?Does the ball roll faster on slate table?Do you have a table or do you hustle in Pool Hall I want a table but wife said I need to get rid of all my old receiver and speakers I have'nt played in a long time and really enjoy it

I like my coffee too. But I don't use Irish Cream to mask the taste as much as to enhance it.

My table has slate. Ball rolls the same on both. But plywood won't stay flat as long. Also, jump shots will not work and masse shots will ruin the table. Ball speed is determained by how hard you hit it and the type of cloth you have. Banks really do come off different when it's raining or damp out. Love my pool table. We turned down a lot of houses based on the fact that there was no room for it.

[PAT.P]

I like my coffee too. But I don't use Irish Cream to mask the taste as much as to enhance it.

My table has slate. Ball rolls the same on both. But plywood won't stay flat as long. Also, jump shots will not work and masse shots will ruin the table. Ball speed is determained by how hard you hit it and the type of cloth you have. Banks really do come off different when it's raining or damp out. Love my pool table. We turned down a lot of houses based on the fact that there was no room for it.

Those the cloth color matter as much as the tip or the chalk ?For the cue how many once to you prefer ?I really want to see a pic of that cue stick(I do mean the wood one)

[GMichael]

Those the cloth color matter as much as the tip or the chalk ?For the cue how many once to you prefer ?I really want to see a pic of that cue stick(I do mean the wood one)

Well, the color of the cloth itself doesn't really matter. But, whatever color cloth you get, you'll need to get the same or close to the same color chalk. Other wise the chalk marks will make a hugh (easy to see) mess on your table. Then, some colors of chalk do work better than others. And some chalk colors have a die in them that get all over your hands and cloths that won't come out. The best chalk is Master's brand blue. That gives you green to blue cloth to work with. The maroon cloth is great looking but the red chalk is the worst.
The best cloth is a worsted cloth. Simonis is what the pros use but it costs a lot because of the name. I have found that Granito cloth is just as good at a better price. Here is a good source for pool products. http://www.poolndarts.com/index.cfm?...productID=4840

I don't have any digital pics of my cue. Here is the manufacturer's site: http://schulercue.com/catalog/index.php?sel_category=5

But they don't have mine anymore. One of a kind as it were.

Here is the cue I shoot with the most. It's the digital mega amp vs. the 20w tube amp.

http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_p2.html