Who uses ONLY Receiver with no amp/preamp? Is good sound possible?

[stevef22]

Sorry to interrupt WW3 but I went out and scored some nice equipment. Skipped school today
and picked up a NAD T760 Receiver and a Marantz MA500 Mono-Amp .
The sound is much better, the vocals are clean and bass is tighter and noticeable. Total cost for new equipment: $130.

Just need another block for the other Cerwin Vega VS120 and I will be set.

Thanks.

[Wireworm5]

Thought you were broke?
Anyways for the record which advice did you follow and was it good advice?

[anamorphic96]

How does it sound with just the NAD driving the Cerwin Vegas. Thats a great receiver that has alot of good clean power. My buddy uses the T751 with his VS10's and it sounds great. Might wanna try and leave some space on top of the receiver so it can breathe better. They tend to get a bit warm.

[PeruvianSkies]

Sorry to interrupt WW3 but I went out and scored some nice equipment. Skipped school today
and picked up a NAD T760 Receiver and a Marantz MA500 Mono-Amp .
The sound is much better, the vocals are clean and bass is tighter and noticeable. Total cost for new equipment: $130.

Just need another block for the other Cerwin Vega VS120 and I will be set.

Thanks.

While I appreciate your desire for this hobby and enthusiasm, you should stay in school and really get a great education and a good job, then you can buy a huge house and fill it with Mark Levinson amps and other insanely expensive high-end gear.

[stevef22]

I hooked the CV directly to the output on the NAD and it just didnt have the punch the M500 Mono Block gives it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Wireworm: I don’t have a lot of dough, why do you think I only got one mono block? : )

Everyone really jumped in and tried to explain the nature of CV speakers and HT consumer receivers. A few people points stuck in my head.

Likeitloud and others: Thanks for the clipping issues when using consumer Yamaha receiver and suggestion for only amping the mains to save money.

Blackraven suggested some nice equipment but I don’t have 1,299 fer good sound.

Kexodusc brought to my attention not to give too much musical fidelity to my CVs, but to accept that they belong next to the pool.
royphil345 made a good point about trying a better amp with my CVs before I jump to buying new speakers and tossing my CVs. He also called out my Yahama receiver correctly as junk even though the CVs are labeled “Highly Efficient” and Kexodusc adamantly argued for better speakers.

Thanks everyone else for into intro into line voltage, capacitors, wattage and general electronics.

I am happy now with the sound using a “better quality” receiver and amplifier. Just need another block. I want to build 2 matching powered subs to create an envelope in the large room. Maybe it will feel like a movie theater?

Did I just use envelope correctly? Did I learn something?

[royphil345]

"The sound is much better, the vocals are clean and bass is tighter and noticeable..."

"I am happy now with the sound using a “better quality” receiver and amplifier."

Who would have ever thought otherwise???...

BWAAAAAAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHAAAAA AAAAAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

BEST BURN EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BEST BURN EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously though... Great Steve!!! Glad it's working out...

But, you do need to get that DVD player off the top of the NAD or it may fry. You can usually get away with stacking other components, but amps need all the air circulation you can give them.

Now if you ever do want to try different speakers someday, you'll be able to drive them properly and get much more out of that upgrade...

... And I didn't really mean "junk" about the Yamaha. Was just trying to get my point accross. They make some of the most reliable electronics out there... nice features... That particular model would do a nice job of driving smaller, lower quality home theater speakers to decent but not loud levels when used with a powered sub. That's the market it's intended for. It is simply not intended for driving floorstanders to concert-hall levels or getting the most weight and resolution out of high-end speakers... Yamaha makes products that will do a better job of that, but they cost more...

[stevef22]

I will get that player off the NAD ASAP. I just wanted to hook everything up and listen! So now are my amps way ahead of my quality of the CVs?

Will these amps properly drive a nicer pair of Paradigm or Dynaudio floor speakers? Or will I need to find better expensive low Ohm amps?

[Carl Reid]

I will get that player off the NAD ASAP. I just wanted to hook everything up and listen! So now are my amps way ahead of my quality of the CVs?

Will these amps properly drive a nicer pair of Paradigm or Dynaudio floor speakers? Or will I need to find better expensive low Ohm amps?

Yes and Yes. NAD is well respected for their budget gear. However, something to keep in mind when you eventually choose to upgrade the CVs...

SYSTEM MATCHING is extremely important. Though it may seem as if the fact that you have more power is responsible for the improvement in sound, you should also realize that NAD has a totally different sound from Yamaha...

Though, this might be a bit of an exageration... I regard the two sounds as opposite... Yamaha tends to be on the bright side while NAD tends to be a bit rolled off on the highs... So Yamaha is a bad choice for 'bright' speakers... (I've heard that CVs are bright, but I have no first hand experience with them)...

I have heard Yamaha/PSB and Yamaha/Mission combinations that sounded much better than NAD/PSB & NAD/Mission combos. I've also heard some horrible combos like Yamaha/Klipsch and Yamaha/B&W....

So back to your question: I haven't heard NAD/Paradigm or NAD/Dynaudio... but you will want to keep system matching in mind and try and listen to those combos before you drop cash on either of them...

[royphil345]

If you pick up the other monoblock, you should be in business. I believe the Marantz monoblocks are capable of putting out even more power if you should use them with speakers having a lower impedance rating (ohms).

The difference between messing with one and having 2 hooked up to your system will probably blow your mind. Those amps are probably not quite powerful enough to play the CVs as loud as they will play without clipping, but you're very close now. NOW I would agree a further amp upgrade would only make a small difference in sound quality or dB output.

What you have now would do a decent job of driving most loudspeakers. There's absolutely better gear available, but the differences would be more subtle from here. Ditto on the system matching... Great place to start... Congrats!!!

As far as your new gear being overkill for the CVs... No... not really. They absolutely require good amplification to sound their best, even if the sound they produce isn't everybody's cup of tea. Maybe some people don't realize this because of their efficiency rating and don't give them a fair shake. You gave them what they needed. Pricier hi-end electronics capable of the utmost in clarity and detail would be wasted on the CVs. Sufficient quality amplification is a must to get the best out of any loudspeaker though.

From here, I'd add a big CV sub or perhaps something of higher quality (more musical sounding, SVS is nice...) if you plan to upgrade speakers eventually. You would have an absolutely killer party / loud rock / pop system that kicks like a mule. Nothing wrong with any type of system that's well put together and working to it's potential. I'm sure any audiophile would get a kick out of your system... literally... LOL...

It's all about attempting to get the sound YOU want on your budget. Whether it's being able to hear the most subtle details in music delicately and smoothly presented... or a thunderous sound capable of physically hurting people... For enough money you can go a long way towards accomplishing both at the same time...

The only potential problem I see is that your amps will start to clip at almost the full power handling capacity of your speakers. That's why I recommended the overkill of a 200 WPC amp. Overdriving speakers will not damage them nearly as quickly as clipping at high power levels. You can usually hear when you're overpowering a speaker and turn the volume down a little before damage occurs. Clipping can melt voice coils much more quickly. Just be a little careful during those "how loud can it go?" demos and you should be fine. Turn the volume down if you hear any sign of distortion or the sound "mushing up". Include a little safety margin from that point if playing that loud for longer periods of time (say hi to the cops for me... LOL) Most CVs have a fuse which would probably prevent any damage and they are especially good about selling replacement drivers at reasonable prices, so no big worries...

Are those 12 gauge speaker wires? Is that a cheap "in the box" video cable to your monoblock? I used to recommend Monster Cable Standard 100 interconnects as something that at least won't restrict flow and make floorstanders sound smaller for only $10 a 1 meter (with monoblocks it's better to use longer interconnects and shorter speaker cables if possible). They seem to be dropping that line and introducing the THX line. Not sure if the cheapest THX is the equivalent of the 100s or not. You can still find 100s for sale online. http://www.shopallmonster.com/produc...SI.asp?pin=147 If you want to spend more on cables, I'd probably stay away from Monster Cable's pricier lines and look elsewhere. The 100s are about the only cables they make that don't color the sound IMO. Maybe not the most revealing cable... probably suitable for use with your CVs though. If those speaker cables are 16 gauge, using just a couple feet might be fine. Longer runs require better cables. 5 or 6 feet of 12 gauge wouldn't cost you much to try either...

EDIT: The Monster Standard 100 cables come in joined pairs, but they do easily "unzip" for use as two separate cables with monoblocks.

[stevef22]

The speaker wires say "Oxygen Free 18 Gauge". I guess these are way too thin. Thanks for the heads up on my cheap o RCA cables. They are really thin and bad looking. I will look into those monster cables. Im thinking I might find cheaper on ebay. Thanks for the link.

Steve

[PeruvianSkies]

The speaker wires say "Oxygen Free 18 Gauge". I guess these are way too thin. Thanks for the heads up on my cheap o RCA cables. They are really thin and bad looking. I will look into those monster cables. Im thinking I might find cheaper on ebay. Thanks for the link.

Steve

Steve,

There are millions of different cables out there to choose from and they range from terrible all the way up to great. Part of the question is what you are willing to spend, but sometimes you can be suckered into stuff that just isn't that great and it's hard to tell. I've had fairly good success with certain brands like AudioQuest, PS Audio, Tara Labs, and the ones I am using now WhiteZombieAudio. I've also found a website called ramelectronics.net that offer a variety of cables at a very good price! I'd recommend them if you are wanting something comparable to Monster, but without the Monster pricetag. I was never a fan of the Monster cables when I used them.

[Dusty Chalk]

For entry level upgrades, Monster XP speaker wire is fine, but for interconnects, I like Radio Shack gold series.

[stevef22]

P.S. Thanks for dropping those names, gives me another direction other than Monster Cable. I am looking around on ebay and such to find a nice pair.

[Dusty Chalk]

If you want to avoid Monster, try Acoustic Research. I prefer Monster's XP, but not by much.

EDIT: Oh, never mind, I thought you said, "...give me another direction other than Monster..." Well, it's still a good selection, opens up your options just one notch more.

[jrhymeammo]

How the f**k did I miss this thread?

Just thinking about trippin' on acid with Kex() in the same room makes me feel like I got Aaron Nevelle singing up and down on my spines.

I dont know~~ much... but I know I~~~



JRAaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

P.S. GET'EM ROY!!!!

[kexodusc]

Sorry to interrupt WW3 but I went out and scored some nice equipment. Skipped school today
and picked up a NAD T760 Receiver and a Marantz MA500 Mono-Amp .
The sound is much better, the vocals are clean and bass is tighter and noticeable. Total cost for new equipment: $130.

Just need another block for the other Cerwin Vega VS120 and I will be set.

Thanks.

Hey Steve-
Glad things worked out for you. I don't even mind taking the parting shots - That's some jump in equipment for only $130. Nice score! So...what's next? :P (- we'll put you in the poor house.)

Cheers!

[Resident Loser]

...who woulda' thunk it...Change out your front end and add an amp with twice the output and here's a noticeable sonic difference...imagine...let's review now and see what we've actually learned...

The Yammie isn't rated into a 4 Ohm load...Do we all know the CVs are a 4 Ohm Speaker? 60 FTC Watts @ 8 Ohms is the best it can muster...and you can ignore all the measured at 1kHz EIA/IHF/Dynamic power ratings (145 Watts @ 2 ohms) as the are all overblown and are, at best, applicable to momentary (at least less than 5 minutes) power pulses before protection devices are triggered...

And the NAD isn't much better...as the OP has so stated...Also not rated into a 4 ohm load and 70 FTC watts (a meaningless diff between it and the Yammie), but it claims to be capable of 40 amps of output current. This number could be significant as it can be momentarily (again <5 min.) driven into a 2 Ohm load and produce 225 Watts...Still not continuous power, still not into an 8 Ohm load, still not 20Hz-20kHz, but more than the Yammies 145...

Now the Marantz...Rated 125W @8 Ohms AND 180W @4 Ohms...WOW, it's actually rated into a four-Ohm load and produces one-third more power into that load, twice would be nice, (that's the proverbial "gold standard") but that the 4 Ohm rating exists at all is a step in the right direction...Was it ever mentioned that the CVs have a nominal 4 Ohm rating?...and it's FTC(RMS) power...and it's continuous...and it's full spectrum... and even though it's roughly twice the Wattage of the Yammie measured at 8 Ohms, that only accounts for all of a 3dB increase, which as I recall is JND territory...sure sounds like high output current is way more significant than the idiotically simplistic suggestion of an increase in Watts will ever be...particularly when driving borderline impedance loads. BTW, just for a comparative reference point, the M500 is EIA rated @ 320 W into 2 Ohms...But it's just numbers and blah, blah, blah...

jimHJJ(...yeah, right...go get 'em roy...)

[GMichael]

Hey stevef22,

Glad you've found what you were looking for.
What's next on the upgrade list?

[royphil345]

BEST BURN EVER!!!

Thanks JRA...

...Turns out that dood needed a better amp to drive those CVs...

[topspeed]

Congrats on your purchase. Alas, I guess this signifies the impending death of one of my favorite threads this year. Oh, well...

Just for giggles, why not do this: Get a SPL meter from Rat Shack ($35) and do a little amp comparo. Get a friend to help you and without knowing which amp you are listening to, listen at a measured 75dB's (this is your normal listening volume, IIRC). After a bit, have your friend switch the wires to the other amp, set to 75dB's again, and then note the differences. This is actually a lot of fun and it will help you focus. The differences, or lack thereof, may be surprising.

BTW, skipping school is muy malo. The more you study, the better chance you'll have of understanding what Jim and Kex were trying to tell you in the first place. You don't have to be an EE, but it does allow you to make educated decisions.

Enjoy your new toys .

[royphil345]

unbelievable...

________________________________

"If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a corner till the time you crash and burn... better luck next time."

[Resident Loser]

...Turns out that dood (sic) needed a better amp to drive those CVs...

...according to some simply meant more Watts...That's what most noobs would come away with and it's simply not the case...that's the point markw, Kex, myself and certain others were trying to make...and there is more than one way to skin a cat...

The diff between 60Watts and 200Watts will allow for a few dB difference in output however, it's still not the solution if the more powerful amp is not rated to deliver it into a 4 Ohm load...The sound can still sound like cr@p as that nominal 4 ohm impedance (which will vary widely dependent on multiple factors) plays havoc with the amp...even at 200Wpc; may even trigger the protection circuits.

And again, despite all the protestations to the contrary, it's not gonna' take a whole lot of Watts to drive those CVs or any other loudspeaker with similar efficiency...strictly the "boom and tizz" type of audio reproduction, very little in the line of subtlety...Some drivers just tend to sound compressed when driven hard, but it's a trade-off the designers make when they are considering their target market and ultimate use of the product.

And for the record, more nuanced loudspeakers will behave quite well with those 60 Yammie Watts, particularly if their impedance is rated appropriately...Put powered subs with correct Xover parameters into the pic and that's a further strain relief to the recs' amps as you are providing a division of labor...essentially bi-amping...

jimHJJ(...and of course, I have to ask the question "men want girls"?...sort of smacks of pedophilia don't it?...)

[stevef22]

Add to my collection? Im broke as a bum right now. However I did pick up some cheap books at half price book store for $15 bucks. I wanted to get some better books from amazon but they are about 30 bucks each.

Been slumming around Craigs List looking for more local deals. I found a pair of PSB Stratus Goldi for sale. Just dont have 1400 to spend on them. If anyone wants them I will pick up for you. : ) Link to PSBs'

Thanks for the tips on skool.

Picture of 2 new books:

[kexodusc]

Hey, I have both those books, well, the 4th edition of Weems, bu the same White/Louie edition.
The dictionary isn't a bad base, though I wonder if you won't know most of it. The Weems book touches on some speaker basics, has a decent crossover primer, and has a few really classic budget projects if you get motivated...And it's either this, or his other book that touches on the dual-chamber reflex design - my favorite cabinet design - sealed sound, ported extension...don't be discouraged by the terrible pictures though, whoever built those cabinets is a hack...

Soak it up.

[jrhymeammo]

SInce you've already purchased the book, I'm not gonna suggest you to throw'em away. Just get on the Wikipedia/Google and do a simple search. That way, you'll get variety of ideas.
Audio is a hobby for me as well, but seriously..... just enjoy what's present in your enviornment. This whole thirst for knowledge is kinda cool, but you just gotta say f*ck it and enjoy your music.. Do you really wanna endup like some members on this thread feeling they gotta spit everything they know? (allow me to do the same)

Just remember that anyone can regurgitate what they "experienced" based on what they've read or heard. All of that means absolutely nothing when you dim the lights and can't even enjoy your music.

Allow me to pass on the best advise I've ever received from our good buddy Bernd. When the voices of all the audio mumbo jumbo start creeping inside of your head, you just gotta say

"Go away you Arsehole"

works for me about 95% of the time. Other times, I'm on this site looking for threads under names like "Kex" and "RL" screaming

"I need to read their holy posts, and figure out what I can do to my system AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!............ cuz that one is righteous ......Ahhhhhhhhhhhh............(breathing).....and that other one is a jerk so he must know best AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

and after all that screaming, you will enjoy your tunes alot more.

That's just me though.


Puppy Love,

Jra................aaaaAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!