Who uses ONLY Receiver with no amp/preamp? Is good sound possible?

[royphil345]

...last time I looked, way more than last semester...probably in the neighborhood of 35 yrs. ago, AC's (you know, sine waves and all that) location-dependent line frequency of 50/60 hz had zero to do with the DC (+/- voltages) that amplifiers run on...Once the AC passes through a full-wave rectifier and the pulsating DC is filtered to remove any ripple-effect, line frequency is essentially a moot point...If this were not the case why would most modern electronic devices be rated for either 50 OR 60 Hz line frequency?

Now if you want to get into the "size" of the caps and the joules and coulombs and what a specific power supply is capable of producing and storing while subject to difficult and inefficient loads, that's one thing...from what I understand CVs have a high sensitivity but are rated @ 4 Ohms nominal impedance which could present a problem to some amplifiers...However, in saying that I would be more concerned with the current output than Watts of the driving unit.

In any event, line frequency is neither voltage nor current nor does it have any bearing on a loudspeakers frequency response as has been suggested.

jimHJJ(...which was, at the outset, what provided the impetus for my participation in this tread...)

Well... It looks like you possibly want to discuss this for real without misquoting me and just arguing for the sake of arguing so...


I'll do my best...

First, I never said anything about the line frequency effecting frequency response.

EDIT: OK... First draft not entirely correct... The transformer actually charges the filter capaciters pretty much continuously with up to the full wattage capicity of the wall outlet depending on the size of the power supply... minus efficiency losses... Basically, when one of the two AC leads stops charging the filter capacitor through the transformer, the other one starts. Yeah... I got a little lost there before... The power is DC as it leaves the transformer with just a touch of frequency (ripple) left in it because of a very short delay time between cycles in AC and lag caused by the transformer. This will be removed by using the power to charge the filter capicitors which will store it and deliver it as clean DC.

But the important part is that the wattage drained from the filter capacitors through the "valve" and loudspeaker INTERMITTENTLY (at a frequency, any frequency in fact) can indeed exceed the wattage available from the transformer / wall outlet to charge the capacitors CONTINUOUSLY, minus efficiency losses... This effect is actually greater than I thought (all frequencies can be reproduced at a higher wattage than what is available continuously) and this wasn't at all considered in the equation you believed to be complete, I believed to be incorrect, and I have proven to be in error. You simply cannot figure out the maximum wattage an amp can put out using a given input without taking the frequency of the output into consideration. That last sentence says it all and cannot be denied.


The impedance load presented by the speaker has mainly one effect. Less resistance will allow more wattage to flow through from the power supply through the speaker. That's why many amps have a higher power rating when used with lower resistance speakers. Although, if the amp has an insufficient power supply, or the "valves" (tubes or transistors) aren't capable of passing the increased power to the lower impedence speakers without overheating as is the case in many receivers... The amp will not be able to deliver increased power to the lower impedance speakers, or will be damaged in the process, or protection circuitry will be triggered.

Notice the load really has no impact on how much power an amp will produce with a given wattage available at the outlet though. A lower impedance speaker will get more wattage from the amp, but the amp will also require more power from the power supply / outlet on the wall. Load will have little effect on how much power you get out compared to what you put in. Just has an impact on how much flow is allowed between the power supply and the speaker.

[Resident Loser]

...there's that ground hum again...

You're very obviously an absolute moron when it comes to anything that requires actual thinking and knowledge in very basic electronics rather than cutting and pasting. You don't seem to even understand enough about what I said to ask a question about it that makes any sense... Quit lying about what I said, or read it until you at least understand what you're arguing about. Shouldn't you at least have to know what I said in order to to have a problem with it,a$$hole? Ask a question that makes sense and I'll be glad to answer. Act like an immature a$$hole and attack me when you don't even know what you're arguing about... I'll just tell it like it is...

Why don't you ask him how he knows the distortion starts at 80db? Stupid idiot.... I already know the answer... Can you guess??? You have to be some dumb kid judging by your dorky personality and complete lack of any knowledge that would come by experience or street smarts.

The 60 WPC Yamaha is JUNK. Their 100 watters will get the job done better, still won't drive CVs to their max potential. Most people who have real experience with audio equipment know this.

...now let's compare and contrast, shall we...Exhibit A, post #31

An amplifier stores the line current in capacitors.

Well, yes and no...Caps store energy, "charged" by the applied current, but since it's rectified and no longer AC it's not really "line" current per se...you make it sound like the AC current is somehow directly applied and stored in Mr. Faraday's device...these are DC caps, not AC caps which are more suited to low output motors and fluorescent lamps...so actually maybe it's more like no and no...

The line current comes in at 60HZ (here anyway). Much power draw from the capacitors can be for bass frequencies below 60HZ which take the most power to reproduce.

And here's where it gets good...Which means what exactly? Line frequency and current are mutually exclusive i.e. two different things...current is measured in amperes and line frequency in Hertz...as if that bush-league faux-pas weren't enough, additionally you seem to be making some sort of correlation between the 60Hz AC line frequency (as in sine-wave) and bass frequencies below 60Hz...So if there is any misunderstanding, it's the result of poor language skills on your part, but I realize high school can be a difficult time in adolescent life...

The line current can charge the capacitors faster than they are drained by low frequencies. More wattage is actually available at lower frequencies than the line current needs to produce.

Gobbledegook...Do you mean to say the power supply of a 100Wpc amp can automatically provide more reserve energy and probably more headroom than a 60 Wpc amp? Not really...If the lower powered amp can produce 120W into a 4 ohm load and the hunnert-watter only 140 into that same 4 Ohms which is the "better" of the two...Rated Watts (a product of voltage and current) really got nuffin' to do with it...Again it's the ability of the amp to provide the required current into a given load...Then we get back to speaker efficiency...a horn-loaded speaker is inherently more efficient (has a higher sensitivity) than an acoustic suspension one; it's simple physics.

BTW, when I attack you, you'll know it...

jimHJJ(...now go back to biting yourself...)

[royphil345]

Exactly what part of "can almost guarantee" don't you understand? That means "not every single one". That's called a qualifier and when you take some reading courses you might understand this. But, I guess they don't teach this in junior high english anymore.


Likewise, from your other posts here you seem to guarantee the OP that by simply plugging those speakers into a more powerful power amp all his problems will magically disappear. Is that your final answer?

Look butthead...

So what you're saying is that your "qualifier" made what you posted absolutely meaningless. I absolutely agree. Exactly like most of your other posts. But you keep spewing rubbish anyway, just for the sake of spewing rubbish, possibly believing that someone is actually buying it and thinks you're not a dumba$$. If not, there's a "qualifier".


Will a better amp make all his problems disappear?... Only the one he complained about in this post, dumba$$!!! What were you saying about them not teaching English anymore??? READ THE POST DUMBASS!!! Sorry if I offered helpful advice when you couldn't. Sorry you're so insecure that you feel it's worth starting a war over, you goofball.

Did you find out why he thinks he's losing steam at 80db yet???... LOL... You had all the answers though... .

Enough of this crap... I need to get some work done today...

Your last post is just a joke... shows you understand nothing. Of course frequency is frequency, voltage is voltage, current is current... no matter what it's being used to do... Electricity is electricity. It moves through conductors towards the ground, that's all it does. It does it at different strengths (voltage), it does it at different speeds (current), it can be made to come in spurts (frequency). And yet you actually call me names because you can't understand these most basic facts???

[Resident Loser]

Well... It looks like you possibly want to discuss this for real without misquoting me and just arguing for the sake of arguing so...You still have to factor in efficiency loss, like you said...

...I was responding to herm0016...so unless you are using sock puppets...

There's another post in which I'm responding to you directly...

jimHJJ(...BTW there ain't no misquotes...)

[Dusty Chalk]

So nice to see everyone getting along again. Well, almost everyone.

Hey LJ & Speedy,

I was going to move you up to the boxed seats with surround sound but, if you like it where you are, who am I to complain. I'll just drink all this beer by myself.

I can hear fine from the back.

Go get 'em you guys!

[topspeed]

Oh man, this thread just gets better and better! This is approaching Lex melt-down level. The CAPS are even starting to fly! Where's Wooch? He should see this!

Mike, throw me a cold one.

[markw]

Look butthead...

So what you're saying is that your "qualifier" made what you posted absolutely meaningless. I absolutely agree. Exactly like most of your other posts. But you keep spewing rubbish anyway, just for the sake of spewing rubbish, possibly believing that someone is actually buying it and thinks you're not a dumba$$. If not, there's a "qualifier".


Will a better amp make all his problems disappear?... Only the one he complained about in this post, dumba$$!!! What were you saying about them not teaching English anymore??? READ THE POST DUMBASS!!! Sorry if I offered helpful advice when you couldn't. Sorry you're so insecure that you feel it's worth starting a war over, you goofball.

Did you find out why he thinks he's losing steam at 80db yet???... LOL... You had all the answers though... .

Enough of this crap... I need to get some work done today...

Your last post is just a joke... shows you understand nothing. Of course frequency is frequency, voltage is voltage, current is current... no matter what it's being used to do... Electricity is electricity. It moves through conductors towards the ground, that's all it does. It does it at different strengths (voltage), it does it at different speeds (current), it can be made to come in spurts (frequency). And yet you actually call me names because you can't understand these most basic facts???

So, Whose starting a war over this? Not I. It seems you're the only one about to pop a vein in your head. Since you started with the name calling 'm just having fun at your expense now. Actually, you stated this with just about everyone who disagreed with you but it's only when you turned your penis in my direction that I gave you what you were asking for.

So, are your speakers as good as his? I note you still haven't named 'em so I guess you still haven't decided which ones to claim you own. Take your time. It doesn't really matter. At this point I doubt anyone would believe you anyway. What's that sucking sound? Oh, that's just your credibility going down the drain.

[royphil345]

So, Whose starting a war over this? Not I. It seems you're the only one about to pop a vein in your head. Since you started with the name calling 'm just having fun at your expense now. Actually, you stated this with just about everyone who disagreed with you but it's only when you turned your penis in my direction that I gave you what you were asking for.

So, are your speakers as good as his? I note you still haven't named 'em so I guess you still haven't decided which ones to claim you own. Take your time. It doesn't really matter. At this point I doubt anyone would believe you anyway. You've pretty much shot off both your feet in this thread. What's that sucking sound? Oh, that's just your credibility going down the drain.

Yeah, your family has been swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool all right.

YES, YES, YES!!!

I WIN!!!

YOUR LAST POST HAD NO CONTENT AT ALL!!! COMPLETE MELTDOWN!!!

NO ARGUMENTS LEFT...

I WIN!!!!!

punk...

[markw]

YES, YES, YES!!!

I WIN!!!

YOUR LAST POST HAD NO CONTENT AT ALL!!! COMPLETE MELTDOWN!!!

NO ARGUMENTS LEFT...

I WIN!!!!!

punk...

If it makes you happy to think this, then have fun.

You still haven't owed up to what speakers you're referring to. ...hee hee hee. ......liar .

What your feeble brain can't comprehend is that I've heard more than enough speakers of that class and calibre over the years to be confident in my general apprasial. Yes, there are a few that don't fit that generalization but that one certainlty does. Obviously, with your limited experience, you haven't had that opportunity and are basing your opinions on what you want to believe, not what is.

So, you see, by asking what your basis for your opinion was was a valid question for discussion. But, since you so conveniently sidestepped answering it when asked, I guess you lose by default.

[GMichael]

Oh man, this thread just gets better and better! This is approaching Lex melt-down level. The CAPS are even starting to fly! Where's Wooch? He should see this!

Mike, throw me a cold one.

I don't get it. He's always been very nice in the past. Got the gloves on today though.

Pfsssst.... Here ya go Speedy.

Haven't seen Wooch anywhere today. He may be saving his energy for Hamburger.
Wish Sir TT was still around.

[Resident Loser]

...we oughta' introduce him to SVI...

Seems like they might hit it off since they have so much in common...

I mean like JBLs and that certain inability to see the forest for the trees...

And that latent...oh, what's the word?...

jimHJJ(...naivete'...yeah, that's the ticket...)

[markw]

I don't get it. He's always been very nice in the past.

getting "better" SQ

He just doesn't like being wrong and doesn't accept correction (or facts he doesn't like) graciously. A common ailment among those with low self esteem who think they know more than they actually do.

[Resident Loser]

I don't get it. He's always been very nice in the past. Got the gloves on today though..

Wish Sir TT was still around.

...it's that time of the month...BTW shouldn't that metaphor be "gloves off"?

Dare I say it? I actually miss TtT...

jimHJJ(...I'll talk to ya' later, I'm eatin' a p'tater...)

[Feanor]

I'm sorry, can you repeat all that again? No seriously, thanks everyone for being so adamant about receivers, sound quality, listening experience, technical specifications etc etc.
...
PS. Locally I found this amp for sale, $140 Vintage Sansui 8900ZDB

I'm sure you guys are familiar with this receiver, Should I offer less money and try and score?

The Sansui is from the early '80's; it's really pass what aficianados consider "vintage", viz. pre-1980. $140 isn't too bad a price -- you could offer $125 and see what happens. HOWEVER this unit is not an AV/HT receiver and is not an alternative to your Yamaha or any possible AV pre-pro/amp replacement.

[GMichael]

...it's that time of the month...BTW shouldn't that metaphor be "gloves off"?

Dare I say it? I actually miss TtT...

jimHJJ(...I'll talk to ya' later, I'm eatin' a p'tater...)

Can't sneek noffin' past you huh? Ok, get'em off.

[GMichael]

getting "better" SQ

He just doesn't like being wrong and doesn't accept correction (or facts he doesn't like) graciously. A common ailment among those with low self esteem who think they know more than they actually do.

Where was I durring all this?

[Resident Loser]

The Sansui is from the early '80's; it's really pass what aficianados consider "vintage", viz. pre-1980. $140 isn't too bad a price -- you could offer $125 and see what happens. HOWEVER this unit is not an AV/HT receiver and is not an alternative to your Yamaha or any possible AV pre-pro/amp replacement.

...if it has pre-outs (and you know how much I love that feature) nearly everything is possible...

jimHJJ(...might make a nice pre/control center...)

[Resident Loser]

Can't sneek noffin' past you huh? Ok, get'em off.

...lure me in with a mixed metaphor and then try to have your way with me...SIR! I'm not that sort of girl...I'll keep them on you brute...

jimHJJ(...I have a joke here, but it might be of questionable content and the thread is going oh so well...)

[GMichael]

...lure me in with a mixed metaphor and then try to have your way with me...SIR! I'm not that sort of girl...I'll keep them on you brute...

jimHJJ(...I have a joke here, but it might be of questionable content and the thread is going oh so well...)

Stick it here: New jokes, old jokes, all jokes

Oops, maybe that should have been your line?

[topspeed]

getting "better" SQ

He just doesn't like being wrong and doesn't accept correction (or facts he doesn't like) graciously. A common ailment among those with low self esteem who think they know more than they actually do.

Wow, I forgot all about that thread!

That read just made ringside seats go up another $100.

[Resident Loser]

getting "better" SQ

He just doesn't like being wrong and doesn't accept correction (or facts he doesn't like) graciously. A common ailment among those with low self esteem who think they know more than they actually do.

...I know you mentioned it before, but until I actually re-read the thread I'd forgotten how much of a dim-bulb we were dealing with...

jimHJJ(...gee, that was fun...whadaya wanna' do now?...)

[markw]

Wow, I forgot all about that thread!

That read just made ringside seats go up another $100.

...hoccum nobody's tossed me a cool brewski yet?

[GMichael]

...hoccum nobody's tossed me a cool brewski yet?

You want a dark or a lite? Nevermind. Here's a Guinness Stout.

[L.J.]

*LJ takes a sip of his Long Island*

What............you guys are still drinkin beer? I'm trying to get drunk tonight!

[GMichael]

*LJ takes a sip of his Long Island*

What............you guys are still drinkin beer? I'm trying to get drunk tonight!

Chug chug chug....
I'll take a .... glug glug glug......
LI iced tea.... slurp... BRUUUUURP!
now.