Who uses ONLY Receiver with no amp/preamp? Is good sound possible?

[L.J.]

*slup.....slurp......munch,munch......crackle...cr ackle.....slurp......*

LJ whispers "Psst, can you pass some more popcorn. Thanks."

*munch....munch.....slurp.......munch.......*

[GMichael]

*slup.....slurp......munch,munch......crackle...cr ackle.....slurp......*

LJ whispers "Psst, can you pass some more popcorn. Thanks."

*munch....munch.....slurp.......munch.......*

(A man in a suit walks up and shines a light in your face) May I see your ticket stub sir? I believe that you are in the wrong theater.

Uhm,... Is that real butter? We don't sell real butter here. And we sure don't sell soda in bottles. Please come with me.

[Resident Loser]

Blah blah blah...

That 60wpc rated Yamaha just might be able to kick those CVs because the square root of pi blah blah blah....

NO IT WON'T!!! It's that simple. No blah blah blah will ever change that. Anybody who knows the gear knows it's true. You're just making a fool of yourself.

I need my ears examined? I need my head examined??? That's all you have left ??? ...and attacking me with multiple IDs...

You need an attitude adjustment.

You're a rude little punk. Spoiled child who throws the board when losing the game. Grow up. You were wrong on this one and resorted to this trash before giving it up. Don't use fighting words unless you're ready to fight. I'll give you my address... Will you give me yours????

...speaking of making a fool of oneself, do tell us again how AC line frequency is the current that charges the capacitors in the amps' power supply and somehow affects the low freqs...or how sheeps' bladders may be used to predict earthquakes...both seem about equally valid.

jimHJJ(...we...plural...meaning more than one...are eager to slake our respective thirsts in your vast puddle of knowledge...BTW I have neckties older than you...pass me the popcorn, this I gotta' see...)

[royphil345]

...speaking of making a fool of oneself, do tell us again how AC line frequency is the current that charges the capacitors in the amps' power supply and somehow affects the low freqs...or how sheeps' bladders may be used to predict earthquakes...both seem about equally valid.

I can't predict earthquakes with a... um... sheep's bladder... ?

But, I can mop the floor with a mouthy dumba$$...

I know how the girls must swoon when you say "oh my" and start talking about sheep's bladders... LOL ... It's that new Dr. Smith chic thing... Oh my!!!... Tragic...



...I did once create wind using nothing but pork rinds...

[PeruvianSkies]

This is like RUMBLE IN THE JUNGLE or WWIII. I don't know who is winning just yet, but it's getting thick.

[herm0016]

not wanting to pull out the notes from circuits last semester, but line freq. does change how the caps are charged. the big power transformer and capacitors and inductors in your amp will store charge so that you can drive it above what you may calculate as the max power coming out of your wall. they will also act like a damper in the system to limit the speed with which the current is supplied to the amp. I have built devices that i did not feel like putting a battery in, just use a capacitor, it will supply a charge like a battery. ( if you use the right size and the circuit is designed for it) now, what this has to do with the OPs question i have no idea.
CV's are not great, but they work and do a decent job. Yamaha amps are not the top of the line either, but i would put them up against a comparable HK or Dennon any day of the week. I think a receiver with a bit more power would be a good upgrade for the OP. No matter what an upgraded receiver will provide him with more features to make it sound like he wants it to. It will also give him more options if the current one has no pre-outs or a LF-out. If he is looking for cleaner more refined sound an upgrade in speakers may be just the ticket.

[topspeed]

Wow! How did I miss this thread?!?

I brought some Goobers to mix with the popcorn, so stop hoggin' it all LJ...

Oh, and Mike, I gave my ticket to the bear.










Oh,

Royphil, you're argument is quite entertaining. Please, do go on.

[westcott]

You've discovered my secret of using multiple identities to gang up on people with opposing views...Oh well....4-1, I win!!!

(Please don't beat me up)

I told you I could stir the pot. I just didn't think it would boil over!!!!

The only winners are those that come to the forum with an open mind and leave having learned something.

If I gave the impression that separate amps are useless, forgive me. Separates do have their place but I will let everyone in on a little secret. Their advantages really come from two things today.

1) Better components.
2) Signal Isolation.

1) With a separate amplifier, you are able to built a unit that has beefier components that will not fit in a conventional receiver. Usually they are better components than those found in an audio reciever, but not always. This allows more heat to be dissipated due to the extra mass.

2) Signal Isolation is probably the greatest advantage since amplification can be separated from the signal processors, thereby isolating radio frequency interference and electromotive forces that can cause disortion of the signal coming from the signal processors. The ability to separate signal processing from the amplication section is a nice advantage of separates and is the greatest contributor to better sound. Power is far less of an influence with todays high quality AV recievers. But, without a speaker that is capable of resolving this extra resolution, any investment in either a better preamp of AV reciever is futile.

Hope this helps.

[powerlord]

Just my two cents,for my Eosone mains I had started out with a Pioneer reciever rated at 95 wpc and they sounded nice at low level but real dirty at high levels,so I tried an upgrade to a higher end pioneer with 110 wpc and no difference,so I try one more time on the reciever upgrade to my Marantz that I have now and bingo!These babies sing loud and clear at almost all levels(haven't tried them all the way up and won't) my speakers specs are as follows sensitivity 89db, overall frequency response 26hz-22khz,rated 8ohm.So actually this is a question like the thread starters,was it the quality of reciever?The power upgrade?I was just wondering,because these Eosones woke up on the Marantz enough to get my audiophile friends wondering why their bling bling systems didn't sound this good.

[stevef22]

I'm sorry, can you repeat all that again? No seriously, thanks everyone for being so adamant about receivers, sound quality, listening experience, technical specifications etc etc.

My level of volume is around 70 Db - 80 Db max for movies and music, Thanks for the chart!

I am going to dig around locally for a good separate amp as many people have suggested. Even though my Yamaha receiver doesn't have preout, I am going to try and use the analog output on the back of my Oppo Universal player. I will take that analog output and run it to the separate amp. Currently the coaxial output on the Oppo Universal player is going to the Yamaha receiver.

Im learning that punch and clarity at higher volumes I am looking for may be in better speakers. But I am on cheap O budget so I am going to find a quality amp first.

Oh ya, forgot to mention...
My room has tile, vaulted ceilings and flat straight walls.



PS. Locally I found this amp for sale, $140 Vintage Sansui 8900ZDB

I'm sure you guys are familiar with this receiver, Should I offer less money and try and score?

[superdougiefreshness]

I can honestly say that I agree with a little bit of what everyone has said on some level or another and I don't necessarily think that one party is right or the other is wrong, it's more a matter of preference and circumstantial in many respects.

Ok everyone, from top geek to lowest mole "me" I would honestly invest in a better set of Interconnects, and certainly something far better then monstercrapple....LOL which to the average guy is thought to be good, mostly we know better. My system improved ever so hugely when it was UNCLOGGED.
This dude is saying at low volumes his CV's get very mushy---thats a clogged signal. I did spent about $130 USD on a custom made pair of interconnects; named "Sonic Euphoria" made here in SanDiego for 1/2 a meter of length and the speaker cables are vintage high gauge,about 20 years old.
My system came to life and all the mushyness is completely GONE. I don't think anyone has addressed this issure to the posting party. Dude may be using 32 gauge computer fan wire and the sound could be total Phlegm. lets see what the guy is running and find out if them there pipes are clogged......before spending on theory or speculation.......GIVE THIS A TRY it worked gloriously for this system I am running.
I use an old Kenwood 40wpc receiver with kick aRss interconnects then run about 9 gauge speaker cables to celestion monitors. And I sometimes hook up my 1977 vintage Pioneer HPM-60's if I need a more rock/disco if you will sound. My Celestions are not rock and roll speakers, but baby are they ever SO sweet.

[royphil345]

I still don't think his receiver is up to the task of giving him what he wants out of his Cerwin Vegas...

Still... You brought up a good point that nobody else did. At least decent interconnects and 12 gauge speaker wire are particularly important in getting the best out of floorstanders. Some of the interconnects I tried actually made my floorstanders sound more like bookshelves. I wouldn't go nuts spending money on wires for a system like that. But, I would make sure the wires are beefy enough.

As far as that Sansui goes... Are you ready to give up surround? Also, Electronics that old could really use a going over to make sure they're performing to specs. I wouldn't usually recommend going vintage unless you just love the gear and you're willing to spend money on it and time finding someone to work on it. Vintage gear can look like a way to save money, but it usually doesn't turn out that way in the end.

I'd be looking for a HT receiver with a better build or a higher power rating and preamp outputs to start. That should make a nice improvement. From there, you could eventually add an external power amp for the main two channels if you really want to play those CVs as loud as they can play.... Or you could look at other speakers if you become more interested in quality over quantity... I really do think a new receiver would be a must to get respectable performance out of any speaker at higher volumes, and the way to go for a first step.

Although... believe it or not... some may disagree... LOL

[superdougiefreshness]

I still don't think his receiver is up to the task of giving him what he wants out of his Cerwin Vegas...
Still... You brought up a good point. Decent interconnects and 12 gauge speaker wire are particularly important in getting the best out of floorstanders. Some of the interconnects I tried actually made my floorstanders sound more like bookshelves. I wouldn't go nuts spending money on wires for a system like that. But, I would make sure the wires were beefy enough.

I believe when someone gets a first great set of cables and/or interconnects they will continue to use them with multiple system upgrades. Many high end shops work this method to demo high end gear, especially speakers. For this application it would be a great idea to open the pathways a bit to hear what is being sent to the speakers first.
Then see if you need more power and/or need a new set of door knocker's to pound the room out. When I upgraded interconnects not only did the quality of sound improve but so did the sheer volume or loudness. I did not need to play my music as loud because the speakers became so sensitive to volume level changes. My music sounded faster "if thats possible"? And the midrange sound became wider in the rooms space. And the top end, well it became etherial.
I think this could help here because new wires would be so transferable. And relatively inexpensive comparable to the other options here, especially if your talking interconnects.
Later
SuperDougieFreshNess - San Diego - Heaven on Earth - Espechilly in March,

[PeruvianSkies]

The initial question was: is good sound possible from ONLY a receiver. I think that the answer is YES. Good sound. Great sound on the other hand can be accomplished by adding separate power amps into the equation.

Of course good sound from a receiver only happens when you have a good receiver...right? So maybe you are curious as to what receivers are worthy? I have found that Pioneer Elite, Denon, and Marantz are all quite decent and offer more affordable offers. Once you get above their tier or prices you may as well go with separates.

[kexodusc]

stevef22:
70-80 dB might require 0.04 watts..even for loud peaks requiring 15 dB of headroom, maybe 1 watt total... Power isn't the issue, clearly.

If you choose to upgrade the electronics, you may notice some performance improvements in the are of sound quality. I know first hand when I upgraded from stereo receivers (Sony, Technics) to better gear from Harmon Kardon, and eventually NAD integrated and power amps, my CV's didn't sound any better....definitely not worth the money I spent on upgrading electronics. As mentioned by several other people, the culprit wasn't the power, but, the ability of the speakers to resolve the minor details higher grade components can offer. My answer was to buy a pair of Wharfedale Emeralds...This is when I realized where I was going wrong. You want to talk night and day? (funny thing, those Wharfedales were expensive back then, today I've heard better speakers for much cheaper).

My CV's were model VS-120, they look the same as the pic you provided, you say yours are VS-12. I think, actually these are the same speakers I had. Anyway, I think I paid $400 for them back in the day. They certainly weren't the most revealing speakers, but man could they rock.

There's no question that speakers will account for the biggest change in sound, should you upgrade your system.
One nice thing about upgrading your amp now, if/when you decide to buy new speakers, you won't be wondering if your 60 wpc Yamaha is adequate. If you do get new speakers, don't sell the CV's, you'll regret it

Good luck.

[Resident Loser]

I can't predict earthquakes with a... um... sheep's bladder... ?

But, I can mop the floor with a mouthy dumba$$...

I know how the girls must swoon when you say "oh my" and start talking about sheep's bladders... LOL ... It's that new Dr. Smith chic thing... Oh my!!!... Tragic...

...I did once create wind using nothing but pork rinds...

...again, explain how AC line frequency affects a speakers low frequency response...we're still waiting...still eating those pork rinds I see...or rather otherwise sense...

jimHJJ(...perhaps you play with girls, I prefer women...)

[markw]

My level of volume is around 70 Db - 80 Db max for movies and music,

That level puts virtually no demand on the power amp at all. If this is the level at which you're complaining about distortion, then lack of power most certainly isn't your problem.

Likewise, neither are cables or interconnects, assuming you're using at least 16 gauge for the speakers.

As I said before, old school, big box, big driver, full range speakers on the floor can almost guarantee a muddy, inarticulate sound, particularly at higher volume levels.

[GMichael]

So nice to see everyone getting along again. Well, almost everyone.

Hey LJ & Speedy,

I was going to move you up to the boxed seats with surround sound but, if you like it where you are, who am I to complain. I'll just drink all this beer by myself.

[Feanor]

.... My system improved ever so hugely when it was UNCLOGGED.
This dude is saying at low volumes his CV's get very mushy---thats a clogged signal. I did spent about $130 USD on a custom made pair of interconnects; named "Sonic Euphoria" made here in SanDiego for 1/2 a meter of length and the speaker cables are vintage high gauge,about 20 years old.
My system came to life and all the mushyness is completely GONE. I don't think anyone has addressed this issure to the posting party. Dude may be using 32 gauge computer fan wire and the sound could be total Phlegm. lets see what the guy is running and find out if them there pipes are clogged......before spending .

Did we find out what stevef22 is using for interconnects? There is a depth to which one should not sink, and that is usually the junk cable that comes with the typical mid-fi receiver, DVD player, etc.

On the other hand it's foolish to go nuts and spend thousands (at least on anything less than a quite high-end system). I heartily recommend interconnects from Blue Jeans Cable. As good or better than all but the most exotic and expensive stuff ...

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/

The same goes for the Belden 5000 series, 12 or 10 ga. speaker cable they recommend.

[royphil345]

...again, explain how AC line frequency affects a speakers low frequency response...we're still waiting...still eating those pork rinds I see...or rather otherwise sense...

You're very obviously an absolute moron when it comes to anything that requires actual thinking and knowledge in very basic electronics rather than cutting and pasting. You don't seem to even understand enough about what I said to ask a question about it that makes any sense... Quit lying about what I said, or read it until you at least understand what you're arguing about. Shouldn't you at least have to know what I said in order to to have a problem with it, a$$hole? Ask a question that makes sense and I'll be glad to answer. Act like an immature a$$hole and attack me when you don't even know what you're arguing about... I'll just tell it like it is...

Why don't you ask him how he knows the distortion starts at 80db? Stupid idiot.... I already know the answer... Can you guess??? You have to be some dumb kid judging by your dorky personality and complete lack of any knowledge that would come by experience or street smarts.

The 60 WPC Yamaha is JUNK. Their 100 watters will get the job done better, still won't drive CVs to their max potential. Most people who have real experience with audio equipment know this.



You say "jimHJJ(...perhaps you play with girls, I prefer women...)" ???

Dead giveaway there ace... You see... All boys want a woman... All men want a girl... Someday you'll understand... maybe (gotta' consider who I'm talking to).

[royphil345]

So nice to see everyone getting along again. Well, almost everyone.

Hey LJ & Speedy,

I was going to move you up to the boxed seats with surround sound but, if you like it where you are, who am I to complain. I'll just drink all this beer by myself.

A beer..... Oooooh ......you're cool................... punk...................

I'm tellin' your mom..... when I see her again...

[royphil345]

That level puts virtually no demand on the power amp at all. If this is the level at which you're complaining about distortion, then lack of power most certainly isn't your problem.

Likewise, neither are cables or interconnects, assuming you're using at least 16 gauge for the speakers.

As I said before, old school, big box, big driver speakers on the floor can almost guarantee a muddy, inarticulate sound, particularly at higher volume levels.

I have a pair of JBLs that just absolutely sealed your idiot coffin.... Do you really expect anyone to believe you know what you're talking about???... LOL What an idiot... Nicer than anything a goof like you will ever own...

[GMichael]

A beer..... Oooooh ......you're cool................... punk...................

I'm tellin' your mom..... when I see her again...

Now now...
Didn't your momy ever teach you to not call people names? You can have soda instead if you like. I won't tease you. Really.

Just having fun Roy. Please don't think I'm attacking you. I have read plenty of your posts in the past and have never seen you be mean to anyone before.

[Resident Loser]

not wanting to pull out the notes from circuits last semester, but line freq. does change how the caps are charged. the big power transformer and capacitors and inductors in your amp will store charge so that you can drive it above what you may calculate as the max power coming out of your wall. they will also act like a damper in the system to limit the speed with which the current is supplied to the amp. I have built devices that i did not feel like putting a battery in, just use a capacitor, it will supply a charge like a battery. ( if you use the right size and the circuit is designed for it) now, what this has to do with the OPs question i have no idea.
CV's are not great, but they work and do a decent job. Yamaha amps are not the top of the line either, but i would put them up against a comparable HK or Dennon any day of the week. I think a receiver with a bit more power would be a good upgrade for the OP. No matter what an upgraded receiver will provide him with more features to make it sound like he wants it to. It will also give him more options if the current one has no pre-outs or a LF-out. If he is looking for cleaner more refined sound an upgrade in speakers may be just the ticket.

...last time I looked, way more than last semester...probably in the neighborhood of 35 yrs. ago, AC's (you know, sine waves and all that) location-dependent line frequency of 50/60 hz had zero to do with the DC (+/- voltages) that amplifiers run on...Once the AC passes through a full-wave rectifier and the pulsating DC is filtered to remove any ripple-effect, line frequency is essentially a moot point...If this were not the case why would most modern electronic devices be rated for either 50 OR 60 Hz line frequency?

Now if you want to get into the "size" of the caps and the joules and coulombs and what a specific power supply is capable of producing and storing while subject to difficult and inefficient loads, that's one thing...from what I understand CVs have a high sensitivity but are rated @ 4 Ohms nominal impedance which could present a problem to some amplifiers...However, in saying that I would be more concerned with the current output than Watts of the driving unit.

In any event, line frequency is neither voltage nor current nor does it have any bearing on a loudspeakers frequency response as has been suggested.

jimHJJ(...which was, at the outset, what provided the impetus for my participation in this tread...)

[markw]

I guess your true class and (in)breeding is just coming out. Oh well, you asked for it.

I have a pair of JBLs that just absolutely sealed your idiot coffin.... Do you really expect anyone to believe you know what you're talking about???... LOL What an idiot... Nicer than anything a goof like you will ever own...

Now, now, child. let's take a step back and analyze exactly what I said.

As I said before, old school, big box, big driver speakers on the floor can almost guarantee a muddy, inarticulate sound, particularly at higher volume levels.

Exactly what part of "can almost guarantee" don't you understand? That means "not every single one". That's called a qualifier and when you take some reading courses you might understand this. But, I guess they don't teach this in junior high english anymore.

Now, if you are saying that his speakers are on the same level as yours then you might have a shot at looking intelligent. Otherwise, you've just (again) shown your proclivity to start calling names, spewing insults like you do your jizm on the bathroom floor, and jumping to absurd conclusions when people have the sheer audacity to disagree with you rather than discuss things like adults. All that really shows is your inability to come up with a reasoned response.

Likewise, from your other posts here you seem to guarantee the OP that by simply plugging those speakers into a more powerful power amp all his problems will magically disappear. Is that your final answer?

So, what JBL's are you so proud of? Are they as good as his Cerwin-Vega!'s?