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Thread: Please help!!!

  1. #1
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    Please help!!!

    Guys i fixed my new rig today, AND I'M VIRTUALLY SPEECHLESS!!!!!!! The system is breathtaking!! Its simply mind blowing stuff... The Paradigm Reference Studio 20, Rotel RA-1062, and Marantz CD 5001, together with Van Den Hul Speaker cables, and QED Interconnects, sound brilliant for the money...

    But i have some questions: What exactly is the minimum distance between speakers tweeter to tweeter??? And also whats the minimum distance between the speaker and the wall??? Plus i'm not entirely sure about this breaking in period, the dealer for the paradigm and rotel said that the speakers would need around 120 hours and the rotel around 72 hours... Now does this time frame mean that i keep playing the system continuously for this period of time, or does it mean that i play it randomly for say 6 hours at a time to accumulate it to the required time break in??? Please i'm kind of confused, and would really appreciate the answers to these questions if possible... Thank you and Happy New Year!

  2. #2
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    As far as placement goes, ideally you want to have an equilateral triangle formed with your listening position, and the two speakers. By reducing the distance between the speakers, you are going to narrow the 'soundstage'. Position recommendations should be mentioned in the studio's manual. You may want to have your speakers a couple of feet way from the walls, but again, check your manual and do what you think sounds best. For break in, simply put some music on, and avoid playing bass heavy stuff loudly at first.
    Glad you're happy with the setup

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    thanks! the thing is that my room is a very small apartment, and i'm just managing to place the speakers about 6-8 ft apart, but the distance between the wall and speaker is around 8 in, is this ok?? also when talking about the break in time, does it mean that i play the system non stop at a stretch? or do i just play it randomly, say for 6 hours at a stretch?

  4. #4
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony340
    thanks! the thing is that my room is a very small apartment, and i'm just managing to place the speakers about 6-8 ft apart, but the distance between the wall and speaker is around 8 in, is this ok?? also when talking about the break in time, does it mean that i play the system non stop at a stretch? or do i just play it randomly, say for 6 hours at a stretch?

    My speakers are about the same distance apart from each other...

    works well here, but I do have them placed 1.5 ft from the back wall and the same from the side wall, the right side wall is further away...

    I sit about 2 meters away from my speakers, maybe slightly more, and have them toed in a little, so the sound comes at me more direct.

    if you've got a little time, you can read these:
    http://www.rivesaudio.com/resources/...oom/frame.html
    and this one is about speaker placement in general, only read appendix 'A':

    http://www.rivesaudio.com/files/spkr_plcmt.pdf

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
    * SME 3012 S2
    * Rega RB-301
    *Denon DL-103 in midas body
    *Denon DL-304
    *Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
    *Lehmann audio black cube SE
    Marantz CD5001 OSE
    MIT AVt 2 IC's
    Sonic link Black earth IC's
    Siltech MXT New york IC's
    Kimber 4VS speakercable
    Furutech powercord and plugs.

    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  5. #5
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    for break-in just play your music as you normally would. No worries

  6. #6
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    All good advice. And if you want to speed up the breaking in period for your speakers just wire one speaker out of phase (swap plus and minus at the speaker end) and have them facing each other only a hand width apart and put the CD on repeat and leave them like that for a day or so.

    Glad you enjoy your system.

    Peace

    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

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    Thumbs up

    The speaker cabinets should be 12 feet apart. How far from the wall depends on what type of speaker enclosures you are using. Very few bass enclosures work very well in corners , only horns. Depending on the enclosure type some speakers should be mounted on stands. Placing a speaker close to the wall increases base response. But again it depends on the type of bass enclosure.

    There is no breaking in period for good speakers ! As for as tweeters , what kind of tweeters does your speaker system use ? horn or cone ? where are they placed in the enclosure ?
    How much real knowledge does your audio sales person have concerning audio ? does he also sell video ?

    Cables and interconnects plays such a small part in music reproduction. The most important parts of an audio system is speakers and amps.
    The better the amps the cleaner the sound. The better the speakers the better it sounds.
    Try reading some audio magazines , there are several that will assist you in learning more about audio.

    I will add most audio salesmen have limited knowledge about audio. Unless you buy from a audio shop only , where there may be a salesman that is an audiophile. That may not be possible today because of home theatre systems, but you can try.

  8. #8
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    The Studio 20 v3 and v4's are front ported so you can have them closer to the rear wall then if they were rear ported. I try to listen to the midbass and if it seems muddy or ill defined I would move the speakers out from the wall a little more.

    Audio Amateur has a good point about placing the speakers in an equilateral triangle. I to live in a small apartment and my speakers are 7ft apart and I am 6 ft from them. In this case I use a little more toe in. There is no set distance speakers have to be apart from each other it is guided by the size of your room and the distance you can be from them. One of the nice things about two way speakers is their sound from the two drivers integrates quicker then a three or more way speaker. This enables you to listen closer than multiways.

    I am glad you are enjoying your system. I also use the Marantz CD5001 and have been very pleased with the quality for the money. A good integrated amp, cd player and pair of two way speakers can give a lot of musical enjoyment.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  9. #9
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melvin walker
    There is no breaking in period for good speakers !
    .
    I can't believe that I am reading such misinformation on here!
    Surely anyone knows that the mechanical part (ie the cone) in a speaker needs time to bed in and loosen up.

    Peace

    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  10. #10
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    To break in my CDP's, I run them 12-24hrs at a time. You do not need to have the amp turned on. As far as other equipment, I just leave the music playing contiuously while I'm away at work.

    Just play around with the position of your speakers to find the best sound. Every room's acoustics and every speaker is different.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
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    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  11. #11
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    Melvin you should really tell us where you get your sources from

  12. #12
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    First of all Tony, I'm glad you are pleased with you new set-up and your excitement transmits to all of us who have had similiar experiences in our venture of all things Hi-Fi.

    I don't profess to know all the answers to all your questions but I will give my opinion based on my own experience of some of your issues. I know you are excited and want to get the "run in period" over and done with first.

    As Bernd pointed out, face your speakers within a hand's breadth of each other, put ONE of the speakers 'out of phase' by "switching black and red on one speaker only". This will not cause any damage whatsoever. What this does is to rid the room of BASS so that it will not annoy the neighbours, or you, when you go to bed. The bass notes will not combine to boom the room. The two speakers, instead of working in tandem to promote bass, will work against each other, (in effect cancelling out each other). Your drivers (cones) will continue to get "worked in". I recommend you place your speakers on a sofa or cusions during this exercise. You definately won't annoy anyone.

    Next:- You ask the question about minimum distance from wall/corners, well I've taken the trouble to look up the specifications of your speakers and I have identified that they are "rear ported" studio speakers. This means good and bad.

    Good:- They are "studio" speakers and so they are designed for small enclosures.
    Bad:- They are rear ported so you will need to be a little careful about positioning.

    There is no such thing as "minimum distance" between tweeters or from rear wall. You will have to experiment with the distance from your speakers to the rear wall, but I think you might be pleasantly surprised that they have been designed - not to sit in the middle of the room - but to be placed relatively close to a rear wall. You will have to judge when bass becomes too 'boomy'.

    As to the distance between speakers - these are 'near-field' speakers; 'studio' speakers. They are designed for small rooms. (Your sales assistant got that right). If you are concerned about how close you can place them together then I would tell you 2ft. (yes two feet). But then you would need to sit 2ft from them to listen properly

    Your speakers have a range of 54Hz - 22kHz. If your amp can drive them appropriatly, which I've no doubt, then you will hear some lovely music many feet and yards back, providing you try and keep within that "triangle" suggested by Audio Amateur.

    Another worthy point Tony...did your dealer mention that the tweeters should be in line with your ears? This is a crucial point missed by many. When listening to stereo music, (not necessarily home theatre), the tweeters should be on the same horizontal as your ears when you are seated. Whatever speaker stands you use for your Paradigms make sure they accommodate your lugs.

    Finally, you mentioned QED interconnects. Which ones are you using? Most of my gear uses QED.

    Tony, you seem excited about your new gear. I wish you all the best. You certainly seem on your way to experiencing better and better. Congratulations.

    If anything I've said seems condescending then I apologise, I don't know you from a crow and so I am taking it that you have invested in some new equipment of which you are not familiar.

    Best Regards

    Now I'm putting on my slippers to listen to some FM radio
    In the music world Impetuosity is not just a youthful trait; I'll explain if you type slowly.

  13. #13
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    Slippers,
    I think his speakers are front ported, I remember the V2 version to be rear ported, but the V3 is front ported...

    anyways, I find it nicer to listen to music when the speakers are not to close to eachother, while the soundstage is really coherent this way (and it will stay coherent until you place the speaker to far away from eachother and sit to close), the imaging is pretty small, imagine it getting a little cramped...

    On the other hand, placing a speaker in a corner may cause first order reflections, which will cause a corrupt soundstage, and may brighten the sound a little (there is alot of info on this in the links I posted before...). The ideal speaker placement is pretty much impossible for us to tell...
    It differs for every room, but the basic guidelines have all been mentioned in this post already, so I will not repeat too much...

    just play around a little when you have them set up first, use the guidelines here to do that, then you can decide wether this is good enough or not. But never forget to play around, just not too much, it gets a little obsessive then

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
    * SME 3012 S2
    * Rega RB-301
    *Denon DL-103 in midas body
    *Denon DL-304
    *Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
    *Lehmann audio black cube SE
    Marantz CD5001 OSE
    MIT AVt 2 IC's
    Sonic link Black earth IC's
    Siltech MXT New york IC's
    Kimber 4VS speakercable
    Furutech powercord and plugs.

    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  14. #14
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    60 degrees

    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    As far as placement goes, ideally you want to have an equilateral triangle formed with your listening position, and the two speakers. By reducing the distance between the speakers, you are going to narrow the 'soundstage'. ..
    An equilateral triangle, or 60 degress between the speakers is ideal, but a bit less is tolerable if necessary: don't obsess about. IMO, 45-50 degrees is better than >90 in which your imaging will become vague and too much will seem to come either from the left or right and too little the center.

  15. #15
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    Basite, don't take all you read as Gospel. Tell me about you own speakers. If your speakers take up more room than your manoevability then they're too big. How much do your speakers dominate?

    Once you're satisfied with your placement tell me the power output of you amp/s.

    Of course it makes sense not to huddle the speakers, make the most of them, sit back if you can.

    Slippers On
    In the music world Impetuosity is not just a youthful trait; I'll explain if you type slowly.

  16. #16
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippers On
    Basite, don't take all you read as Gospel. Tell me about you own speakers. If your speakers take up more room than your manoevability then they're too big. How much do your speakers dominate?

    Once you're satisfied with your placement tell me the power output of you amp/s.

    Of course it makes sense not to huddle the speakers, make the most of them, sit back if you can.

    Slippers On

    My speakers work pretty good in my room, they are not small, but their design kinda allows me to use them in smaller rooms too without problems...

    I don't have the Thiels that long yet, so I'm still playing around with placement too from time to time (especially now, since I'm trying out new interconnects...), but at the moment, the meters on my Mcintosh indicate 0.01 watt power output, but it's night now, so it's slightly quieter as during the day, then the meters indicate an average of 1 watt, sometimes 2 watts constant output power, although peaks reach much much higher.
    When I play loud, the meters hit 10 watts average output...

    sometimes at night I can have music playing without even seeing the meters move, exept on absolute peaks, and it still sounds good and coherent...

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
    * SME 3012 S2
    * Rega RB-301
    *Denon DL-103 in midas body
    *Denon DL-304
    *Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
    *Lehmann audio black cube SE
    Marantz CD5001 OSE
    MIT AVt 2 IC's
    Sonic link Black earth IC's
    Siltech MXT New york IC's
    Kimber 4VS speakercable
    Furutech powercord and plugs.

    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  17. #17
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    Aw, don't worry 'bout...

    Quote Originally Posted by tony340
    Guys i fixed my new rig today, AND I'M VIRTUALLY SPEECHLESS!!!!!!! The system is breathtaking!! Its simply mind blowing stuff... The Paradigm Reference Studio 20, Rotel RA-1062, and Marantz CD 5001, together with Van Den Hul Speaker cables, and QED Interconnects, sound brilliant for the money...

    But i have some questions: What exactly is the minimum distance between speakers tweeter to tweeter??? And also whats the minimum distance between the speaker and the wall??? Plus i'm not entirely sure about this breaking in period, the dealer for the paradigm and rotel said that the speakers would need around 120 hours and the rotel around 72 hours... Now does this time frame mean that i keep playing the system continuously for this period of time, or does it mean that i play it randomly for say 6 hours at a time to accumulate it to the required time break in??? Please i'm kind of confused, and would really appreciate the answers to these questions if possible... Thank you and Happy New Year!
    ...running them in, just enjoy your new toys!

    I had a pair of Studio 60s for eight years, and they served well. I can remember firing them up the first time and thinking they sounded worse than the Titans they were replacing... definitely sounding different than my store demo. I can't really remember how long to loosen up, maybe 50ish hours? You can play Bela Fleck's "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo"... that'll work in your new mid-woofs :*)

    Yeah, you'll want a minimum of about six feet between for a good soundstage. IME, like most speakers, they prefer to breathe a bit... 8" to the sidewalls is a bit close. You can toe-in as well as deaden the first reflection (if necessary) to combat.

    Well, ultimately I decided to sell mine so I could make some space. As Paradigm is a large, well-respected company, my 60s fetched 75% of the original price. Granted, they were still super-clean, and I kept the boxes, but I thought that was pretty good. I'm sure they can go another 20 years... at least.

    Have fun listening...

  18. #18
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    Look, there is no reason whatsoever to listen to "sales pitch" when you have the use of the www.

    If you go into a sales room wanting to audition a pair of speakers then ask the sales guy to move the speakers around to suit your tastes. I once got a guy to move the "chair" outside until I could hear the amps working properly. I jest you not! YOU are the custome.

    Basite.. how far from your speakers is you listening position. Name speakers, room dimensions including height.

    Slippers On
    In the music world Impetuosity is not just a youthful trait; I'll explain if you type slowly.

  19. #19
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippers On
    Basite.. how far from your speakers is you listening position. Name speakers, room dimensions including height.

    Slippers On

    speakers are 1.96 m apart from eachother, I'm sitting 2,2 meters away from them...

    speakers are Thiel CS2.3's,
    room dimensions are 3.5m D x 4.5m W x 2,30m H; but there is a slant wall in the room (is slant the correct way of saying it?), but I don't have real troubles with it...

    the Thiels are slightly toed in, and they're 49 cm from the back wall...

    a more ideal room is always welcome, but I'm happy


    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
    * SME 3012 S2
    * Rega RB-301
    *Denon DL-103 in midas body
    *Denon DL-304
    *Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
    *Lehmann audio black cube SE
    Marantz CD5001 OSE
    MIT AVt 2 IC's
    Sonic link Black earth IC's
    Siltech MXT New york IC's
    Kimber 4VS speakercable
    Furutech powercord and plugs.

    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  20. #20
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    Melvin you should really tell us where you get your sources from
    Information is power ! my information has come over 50 years of listening , buying and reading about audio equipment
    I have personally discussed audio with, Avery Fisher . Saul Marantz ,and Rudy Bozak .
    I have traveled to audio shows in Los Angeles where I visited the JBL factory in Culver City and talked to studio engineers who set up many of the audio systems for the motion picture industry. Several of the engineers I talked with set up audio systems for MGM
    musicals. Two of the engineers worked with Fred Astaire at RKO.

    I bought my first audio system in 1958 , Stephens speakers , pilot pre-amp and power amp, Lesa turntable , and a autogourse cartridge.
    In the St.louis area as an audiophile Spent many hours at the more than a dozen audio shops now all closed but active from 1958 thru the 1980's.Talking with other audiophiles about audio.

    I have seen hundreds of audio companies go out of business. Observed the introduction of stereo , transistors , receivers , digital , CD's etc.
    I have read thousands of audio magazines and audio books. Dating back to the 1950's.
    I have observed live vs recorded sound in St,Louis at Powell Symphony Hall.
    I have visited audio shows in Chicago , Kansas City , St.Louis , Los Angeles and London.

    I have talked with men that has devoted their lives to audio. I have never heard an audio engineer or CEO's of any speaker company tell anyone that their speakers needed a break-in period. That may be true with the new speakers that are poorly designed.
    This is an era of video not audio !

    I would also like to know where you get your information. By the way I have keep most of my audio magazines , Audio , High Fidelity Magazine , Stereo Review , annual Stereo
    reviews dating back to 1962 !

  21. #21
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    Very impressive resume Melvin! You're a well-travelled audiophile!

  22. #22
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    Is that why he says such misinformed stuff as Bernd has put it? I don't mean to be rude but some of the things you say Melvin counters your background. I'm surprised at some of the content in your posts

    cheers and happy new year to all

  23. #23
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    PS: Slippers just curious do you not see that Basite or Bert sorry has the list of his rig as a signiture to his posts? Why then would you ask what type of speakers he has?

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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    Is that why he says such misinformed stuff as Bernd has put it? I don't mean to be rude but some of the things you say Melvin counters your background. I'm surprised at some of the content in your posts

    cheers and happy new year to all
    I would very much enjoy reading about your audio experiences. You remain me of many
    young men when they discuss basketball , their knowledge of basketball extends only back to Michael Jordan. Or when I hear most young people discuss history and they tell me the reason they don't know is they were not born than.

    is audio any different ? How many audio books does the average so-called audiophile read today ? How many audio shows has that audio buff attended ? I have found on this forum many of you has never heard of Electro-Voice , a company that was a pioneer in amps as well as speakers. But I am not surprised . Surveys have revealed that most young Americans thought Japan fought on the side of America in World War Two !!

    When I visit an audio showroom not Best Buy or stores in which the salesman doesn't know a tweeter from a hookworm , I am appalled at the lack of knowledge that the average audio salesperson knows about the products he or she sells.
    Times have changed.

  25. #25
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Not everything that is modern is bad, it's called progress. And it's up to us to pick the good stuff and disgard the rubbish. I welcome somebody like Melvin into our little family, but I don't think it is necessary to list all ones experiences over the last 50 years in the first few posts. As there is no way of proving that, and by stating that "good speakers" need no break in (does that mean that "bad speakers" do), Melvin somehow lost some credibility with me. I think the way things are put are as important. And just because someone is 17 or 27 or 37 etc does not make their contributions less valuable, and one should not presume that because somebody is of young age that they know nothing or don't read or visit audio shows or showrooms. Or most importantly, can't use their ears and judgement. What makes you Melvin, think your point is the only valuable or correct one ?

    Just my 2ct.

    Peace

    Last edited by Bernd; 12-30-2007 at 09:08 AM.
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

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