Please help!!!

[basite]

ok, then let's talk audio.

you still haven' answered my question.

Which of those speakers I mentioned above have you heard?

[melvin walker]

I think what is troubling is you state things as though they are fact when they are just your experiences and opinions. As far as watches I would rather have a Blancain Tourbillon.

Blancain is an excellent watch ,Blancain Tourbillion outstanding.
I have an opinion . we all have opinions. The purpose of this site is to discuss audio.
You can agree to disagree. I present my positions , others theirs.

Can't we agree to disagree ? There are several sites I am a member of. Clothing , cars .
watches , etc. This is the only site where it appears there is a reluctance to agree to disagree.
Why attempt to analyze what is said , just give a countering argument.

[markw]

You appear to have a problem discussing audio ! The issue is audio , to agree to disagree. I have no interest in your opinion of me. Can't you understand that..

I did discuss audio in post 42 of this thread and you summarily ignored it. Sorry, there's no charge for the extras. It's my contribution to this site. You ask for it, you got it. ..and will continue to get it as long as you ask for it.

This is an excellent website..

It was before you showed up with all your pompous, know it all from the 50's attitude and spat on everyone else. I could handle your BS, but when you blurted out the 11th commandment, "The speakers SHOULD be 12 feet apart" like Charlton Heston coming down the mountain with the tablets, I realized that, in spite of all your bluster and bravado, you really don't know squat about this hobby or, at best, you didn't learn a thing in all those years of experience you claim.

There's been a lot of advances in the last fifty years. Thiele Small parameters, the Cardas method of speaker placement, etc, etc...

We all got along and offered friendly, supportive advice to any and all who asked.

Our goal isn't to put people down for their equipment, but rather to nurture them and help them grow. ...not step on them and squash them like a bug because they weren't around 40 - 50 years ago or own melvin walker approved equipment.

you might want to jot that down for future reference.

OK, let's talk audio. I see you still didn't answer the two simple questions I posed several posts ago. If you weren't BSing us all along, that first one should have bween a no--brainer.

I'll see ya around. Ya never know when you'll have me jump into one of your conversations when you need to be dragged back to reality.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Melvin,

These are the statements that define you, and probably got you off on the wrong foot with some of us:

I have personally discussed audio with, Avery Fisher . Saul Marantz ,and Rudy Bozak .
I have traveled to audio shows in Los Angeles where I visited the JBL factory in Culver City and talked to studio engineers who set up many of the audio systems for the motion picture industry. Several of the engineers I talked with set up audio systems for MGM
musicals. Two of the engineers worked with Fred Astaire at RKO.

I bought my first audio system in 1958 , Stephens speakers , pilot pre-amp and power amp, Lesa turntable , and a autogourse cartridge.
In the St.louis area as an audiophile Spent many hours at the more than a dozen audio shops now all closed but active from 1958 thru the 1980's.Talking with other audiophiles about audio.

I have seen hundreds of audio companies go out of business. Observed the introduction of stereo , transistors , receivers , digital , CD's etc.
I have read thousands of audio magazines and audio books. Dating back to the 1950's.
I have observed live vs recorded sound in St,Louis at Powell Symphony Hall.
I have visited audio shows in Chicago , Kansas City , St.Louis , Los Angeles and London.

I have talked with men that has devoted their lives to audio. I have never heard an audio engineer or CEO's of any speaker company tell anyone that their speakers needed a break-in period. That may be true with the new speakers that are poorly designed.
This is an era of video not audio !

There are no egotists here; maybe at other sites but my experience tells me that at the AR forums, we only try to help, not measure penis length.

My suggestion would be to either verify or retract those statements.

[melvin walker]

Melvin,

These are the statements that define you, and probably got you off on the wrong foot with some of us:

There are no egotists here; maybe at other sites but my experience tells me that at the AR forums, we only try to help, not measure penis length.

My suggestion would be to either verify or retract those statements.

One of your members ask for the information. Go back and read the post.
I would suggest that you learn a little respect for other members. There may be ladies reading these post.
I would add that on other forums the use of such language would disqualify your membership !

Life experiences does not make one an egotist. There are audiophiles that has a world of experiences in audio engineering and associations.

Yes you are correct this is not a forum in which all opinions are excepted. I might add the language used here is unbelievable. You can except my statements are reject them that is up to you.
I would suggest that you look up the word insecure.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Language?!?! Well, there IS one lady who is a member here and saying the word PENIS doesn't faze her. What are you a priest? Please.

This message board has a filtering mechanism that will censor any curse words. Here's an example... **** you!!!

[JohnMichael]

Language?!?! Well, there IS one lady who is a member here and saying the word PENIS doesn't faze her. What are you a priest? Please.

This message board has a filtering mechanism that will censor any curse words. Here's an example... **** you!!!

Thank you Rich oh wait you mean ForeverAutumn. Well I was not offended either.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Thank you Rich oh wait you mean ForeverAutumn. Well I was not offended either.

Wouldn't want to PI$$ off the modurator!

[frenchmon]

Well fellas...I think its time we stop this argument and get back to audio.

For what its worth, I think Melvin has a lot of information that was understood out of context. He was asked about his knowledge. He did give examples using cars, clothings, and watches.

And I do think Bastie, MarkW and others also have some very good audio information and knowledge as well, to add to the discussion. I think both sides have their bias...Melvin to the vintage stuff. His idea of audio is not found in todays geer unless you spend six figures. While not agreeing with him, I do see his point...and I don;t have to agree with his argument in order to see where he is coming from.

And the rest of us know you don't have to spend that kinda money to get great sound.

But what I do think, not being subject to the discussion, is that both sides over reacted. It escaladed higher than it should have.

So lets all just forget the discussion. And Melvin...you are the older person here, kindly use good wisdom and be more selective in how you say things...try not to sound so high and mighty, even if you are not trying to come across that way.

And fellas, I m sure our parents taught us better than to disrespect older foke, even if we think they are in left field.

Lets all get back to good audio...I learn from you guys...you all have great arguments, lets not spoil it for the lurkers trying to learn.


frenchmon

[bobsticks]

Everytime I check in with this thread I feel like I've just been lectured by the guy taking the minutes at the Evelyn Waugh Coffee Kvetch...

[frenchmon]

Everytime I check in with this thread I feel like I've just been lectured by the guy taking the minutes at the Evelyn Waugh Coffee Kvetch...

Iron Sharpens Iron! There is more than one way to skin a cat.

frenchmon

[Modernaire]

Not everything that is modern is bad, it's called progress. And it's up to us to pick the good stuff and disgard the rubbish. I welcome somebody like Melvin into our little family, but I don't think it is necessary to list all ones experiences over the last 50 years in the first few posts. As there is no way of proving that, and by stating that "good speakers" need no break in (does that mean that "bad speakers" do), Melvin somehow lost some credibility with me. I think the way things are put are as important. And just because someone is 17 or 27 or 37 etc does not make their contributions less valuable, and one should not presume that because somebody is of young age that they know nothing or don't read or visit audio shows or showrooms. Or most importantly, can't use their ears and judgement. What makes you Melvin, think your point is the only valuable or correct one ?

Just my 2ct.

Peace

One thing about "progression" these days is how many don not respect their elders. I'd rather sit and listen to someone with a long list of experiences over a 17 year old who's enamored with blue lights. Have we lost perspective at the AR forums?


I work in design, I work with an art director who's got years of experience and worked with big names in the industry. I respect his views and listen intently to his experiences. I gain so much. Sure, I do stand for my views on certain things concerning modern "progressions", but I have found that the best way to deal with old and new is to help bridge the two together.

The challenge, and who doesn't love a good challenge, is combining old and new harmoniously. I think this sort of view come in handy in audio or music or any other of our fascinations.

Continue.

[basite]

One thing about "progression" these days is how many don not respect their elders. I'd rather sit and listen to someone with a long list of experiences over a 17 year old who's enamored with blue lights. Have we lost perspective at the AR forums?

I do to, but while it's okay to listen, it's wrong to just see the things the older experienced perosn says as the absolute truth.

he said cables make 'almost no difference', well I'm trying out different interconnects now, and the difference sure ain't small.
and that 'good speakers don't need burn in', is also wrong, even the best speakers need to undergo the laws of physics.
and that speakers 'have to be 12 feet apart from eachother': Who ever said that? it might be a guideline, but it sure ain't completely true.

I also enjoy what Melvin is saying about the old days, I also think that we have to preserve the vintage things. But as others have said, you cannot use the old times as a weapon.

and I feel you are referring to me by saying "the 17 year old enamored with blue lights", but I have my opinions too, and I sure do have enough knowledge to defend them.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[frenchmon]

I do to, but while it's okay to listen, it's wrong to just see the things the older experienced perosn says as the absolute truth.

he said cables make 'almost no difference', well I'm trying out different interconnects now, and the difference sure ain't small.
and that 'good speakers don't need burn in', is also wrong, even the best speakers need to undergo the laws of physics.
and that speakers 'have to be 12 feet apart from eachother': Who ever said that? it might be a guideline, but it sure ain't completely true.

I also enjoy what Melvin is saying about the old days, I also think that we have to preserve the vintage things. But as others have said, you cannot use the old times as a weapon.

and I feel you are referring to me by saying "the 17 year old enamored with blue lights", but I have my opinions too, and I sure do have enough knowledge to defend them.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Bastie I understand that you won't let others walk all over you like you are a complete dummy...especially when you have a passion for audio as I and others do. Hey I'll be the first person to tell you I love this stuff. Most of my friends think I am nuts, they can't tell the difference in the sound of their car audio and their home audio that they got at Best Buy. But for us, if goes way beyond that stuff.

When a person like Melvin comes along, who is as old as he is, He kinda wants the respect that is do him. After all he is our elder, and I am jquilty as well of falling short here. I don't agree with some of the tihngs he is saying. But I can't imagine speakers costing $150,000 needing to be broken in. If they do, they had better do it before I get them home.

I could be wrong and chances are I am, but my point is this. One thing I have learned in life is that you just can't really win an argument from some one as old as Melvin, who has been around the block a time or two. Don't know if you are married, but its sorta like trying to argue with your wife...its a never ending battle. She will not give in most of the time. This is a proven fact. Well some old guys are like that. So the best thing we can do with audiophiles who come in her with the knowledge of Melvin, is to listen and take what you can from him, and leave the rest.

I once bragged to an old guy once about some things he was spouting about. He looked at me and said Keep living young man. I said what do you mean by that? He said you just needed to listen to me on this. I said so what do you mean by keep living? He said one day your turn will come to give away whats dear to you in the way of experience to some one younger that they can grow, so just keep living and don't die, or you will never see what its like to give it all away before you die.

That man just wanted to pass on what he had to gain and feel respected...no more , no less...thats Melvin, after all what else does an old man have? The money can only go so far, respect follows you after you die...even if we don't agree with his knowledge, I think he's earned and aught to get his respect in that regard. So next time I think I will just listen and recieve the knowledge and leave the fluff.

Just more of my ramblings...I'm done now, lets get back to reading some of your wonderful postings on audio...I'm learning from you guys.


frenchmon

[johnny p]

It stopped snowing for a minute...........

Oh, I'm sorry.... I thought this was the "Way off topic" thread.

[audio amateur]

Speakers need breaking-in whether they are $200 or $150K

[frenchmon]

Speakers need breaking-in whether they are $200 or $150K

I suppose you are correct.

frenchmon

[E-Stat]

...thats Melvin, after all what else does an old man have?

Gee, you make it sound like he's nearly dead. How about curiosity? The never ending search for new music? Seeking to hear your favorite music ever more clearly than you had ever done so before? For some reason, he believes music and audio somehow stopped developing somewhere in the 70s. I find that quite sad. Recently, for example, I was introduced to works by a young classical composer named Jennifer Higdon. It is a well recorded and emotional piece of music found on Telarc. While this my sound trite, ever listen to any soundtracks from the Harry Potter films? A few are quite special. The latest one has some very tasty music. At first I thought the disc was defective because one track sounded blank while I first heard it in the car. What I discovered was that it had incredible dynamic range - the car was just a poor place to enjoy it.

I'm always learning something new at age 50 and hope that doesn't change when I'm 60.

rw

[frenchmon]

Gee, you make it sound like he's nearly dead. How about curiosity? The never ending search for new music? Seeking to hear your favorite music ever more clearly than you had ever done so before? For some reason, he believes music and audio somehow stopped developing somewhere in the 70s. I find that quite sad. Recently, for example, I was introduced to works by a young classical composer named Jennifer Higdon. It is a well recorded and emotional piece of music found on Telarc. While this my sound trite, ever listen to any soundtracks from the Harry Potter films? A few are quite special. The latest one has some very tasty music. At first I thought the disc was defective because one track sounded blank while I first heard it in the car. What I discovered was that it had incredible dynamic range - the car was just a poor place to enjoy it.

I'm always learning something new at age 50 and hope that doesn't change when I'm 60.

rw

I'm four years your junior and I'm with you

frenchmon

[GMichael]

I just read this whole thread. I want those 20 minutes of my life back please.

To the OP,

Try to keep your speakers about 1.5 feet or more from the walls. Don't have them the exact same distance from the left and the right walls. A little difference there helps to keep reflections from adding up. Play around with them to see what sounds best to you from your seating position. There is no "one size fits all" answer to how far apart they should be no matter how long a person has been listening to music, or eating lunch with classical pianists & conductors. (Even if they drive $500,000 cars, wear $1000 suites or eat $300 meals) Try to get that equal lateral triangle thing going for you if you can. (distance apart equals the distance to where you sit/listen) If you have to choose, it's better for you to be farther away than it is for them to be farther apart (to a point).
Some speakers do indeed need a break in period to sound their best. It can be a few hours a day. It doesn't need to be all in one playing. I left mine on low at night and during the day till they sounded right to me. (Bernd's method sounds logical to me, but I've never tried it) Some speakers don't need as much break-in as others. I would think that if you paid $100,000 or more on them, then you could expect the manufacturer to break them in for you before shipping them.
I don't know if you amp needs a break in time or not. If it has tubes, then my guess is that it will improve over time. If it's SS then I highly doubt it will make a difference.

Good luck, and good listening. Glad to have you posting.

[Jimmy C]

...if Melvin Walker was related to our old friend James Davenport Briggs :^?

I don't mind a bit of levity in here...

[markw]

...if Melvin Walker was related to our old friend James Davenport Briggs :^?

I don't mind a bit of levity in here...

But this guy was just a little too serious and didn't come off as an intended parody.

[Jimmy C]

But this guy was just a little too serious and didn't come off as an intended parody.

...ya hafta mix up your game here and there! Ha!

And aAAaCCcK... maybe SVI?

B*)

[Tailwind]

The speaker cabinets should be 12 feet apart. How far from the wall depends on what type of speaker enclosures you are using. Very few bass enclosures work very well in corners , only horns. Depending on the enclosure type some speakers should be mounted on stands. Placing a speaker close to the wall increases base response. But again it depends on the type of bass enclosure.

There is no breaking in period for good speakers ! As for as tweeters , what kind of tweeters does your speaker system use ? horn or cone ? where are they placed in the enclosure ?
How much real knowledge does your audio sales person have concerning audio ? does he also sell video ?

Cables and interconnects plays such a small part in music reproduction. The most important parts of an audio system is speakers and amps.
The better the amps the cleaner the sound. The better the speakers the better it sounds.
Try reading some audio magazines , there are several that will assist you in learning more about audio.

I will add most audio salesmen have limited knowledge about audio. Unless you buy from a audio shop only , where there may be a salesman that is an audiophile. That may not be possible today because of home theatre systems, but you can try.

Where do you get 12 feet from. Maybe in your space. not in mine. Speakers interact with the room they are in. Its called "excited modes" Depending on where the speakers are in the room different modes will or can be excited. Placement is totally up to the listeners preference. If you hear boomy bass move them away from the rear wall and sometimes side walls. Try some deflector panals maybe if you have mode problems you cant control with placement .How wide the baffles are play a factor, driver size, type, the materail on the walls , the floor your furnishings all have a large impact on placement. AT Harmon International there is a series of white papers written by the audio engineers that design their loudspeakers .. It goes into detail about modes and how placement of speakers and furniture can affect the sound. Its worth a read if your having trouble getting what you want. If no bass move them more into a corner or straight back toward the wall basically there is no rule of thumb for distance as all rooms act differently with different types of speakers so just experiment and find the placement that sounds the best to your ears not melvins.

There most definatley is a breakin period for any loudspeaker. Planar or cone, They all move to create sound. When they are new the suspensions are much more tight than after a liberal breakin period. I build speakers all the time so I measure for theil small parameters and if you dont put some breakin time on the drivers before obtaining the parameters to aid in cab and xo modeling you will be building a box and a crossover for a speakers electromechanical characteristics that wont exist after they are broke in. And they can change considerable. But just for the record that doesnt mean you have to not use your speakers until they are broken in for listening to tunes, just that if you have an opinion about the way they sound at the time of purchase be sure to withhold judgement until the breakin period is over to be fair to the manufacturer that states that they do in fact require a break in. I personall run a few hz above the rated FS (nat resonant freq.) of the driver at about 10 volts measured for 3 or 4 hours. This improves the cooling as the coil is moving lots of air as the diaphram and cone suspension loosen up a little. On a driver that is not broken in there is a slight possibility that due to the reduced movement of the voice coil at any given volume due to the overly stiff suspension spider and surround material that the voice coil can overheat because not enough air being moved to keep it cool. I think Melvin works at Best Buy or wal mart either way he obviously has not done the reasearch himself that he is recommending to you.

[Tailwind]

I'm four years your junior and I'm with you

frenchmon

Im 2 years your senior and Im hunting for new things every day. My dad before he died told me "You know I am not afraid of dying but I hate it that I wont see what technology brings in another 20 years. He was a superb musician (Violinist) as well an Electrical Engineer. To stop experiencing new things is to die in my opinion,.