An Open Letter to All Members

[markw]

Isn't that a fancy way of saying that one is afraid that their firmly held beliefs might be proven wrong when depending on one sense alone?

If performance anxiety were that major an issue. most audiophiles wouldn't have any kids.

[Brett A]

you should have been here a couple of years ago when mtrycrafts ...used to frequent this board.

Funny this name should pop up here. This guy has been making attempts to beat me up over on another forum essentially for reporting things that he has read cannot be measured.

I don't wish to pick on him specifically, suffice to say when I recently wandered into this other forum, I was quite taken aback by how sensitive and prone to attack some devout objectivists are.
I understand it as insecurity. People tend to attack when they feel threatened.
(Oh yeh, people also like to be right too.)

[Florian]

Well, it all down to how much you care to spend. This hobby really doesnt need much brain power at all, if you want to go "All out Assault" then you simply need money. You dont even need skill in this hobby and there are no wrong answeres.... exept cheap NAD receivers... lol

[Ajani]

Well, it all down to how much you care to spend. This hobby really doesnt need much brain power at all, if you want to go "All out Assault" then you simply need money. You dont even need skill in this hobby and there are no wrong answeres.... exept cheap NAD receivers... lol

LOL.... Good point actually..... I think the biggest challenge in this hobby is trying to put together a great setup on a more modest budget.... with a total buget of say $3k, try putting together a great 2 channel setup... do you buy new or take a chance on used? Do you go for reproducing the full range of sound (floorstanders) or just concentrate on the mid - hi frequencies (bookshelves)? Do you buy a good source or just 'borrow' or buy your friends $30 Ratshack DVD player and spend the entire budget on amp and speakers? How do you split your budget between components? Do you buy fancy cables or just use the freebie RCAs that come with the amp or cd player?

With lots of money to spend, all you need to do is walk into your nearest shop, listen to the most expensive setup and if you like it... buy it.... Then people see your expensive setup and think you are a real audio expert (or lunatic... lol)....

Anyway, I think sometimes we loose track of the point of having a hobby... to have fun...

[Florian]

Exactly, who the hell cares if my sound is colored, or too large.

I love having a big fat speaker where i have to rent a crane just to move it to my new apartment. Mmmh..... all i care about is blasting my ears out with a huge soundstage and slam attacks that make me shiffer....

[Feanor]

LOL.... Good point actually..... I think the biggest challenge in this hobby is trying to put together a great setup on a more modest budget.... with a total buget of say $3k, try putting together a great 2 channel setup... do you buy new or take a chance on used? Do you go for reproducing the full range of sound (floorstanders) or just concentrate on the mid - hi frequencies (bookshelves)? Do you buy a good source or just 'borrow' or buy your friends $30 Ratshack DVD player and spend the entire budget on amp and speakers? How do you split your budget between components? Do you buy fancy cables or just use the freebie RCAs that come with the amp or cd player?
...

Anyway, I think sometimes we loose track of the point of having a hobby... to have fun...

The fun is so many variables, not the least one's taste in music and personal preference.

I know my present system is extremely well balance and tuned to my tastes, but where's the fun in that? I know that my current components deliver great performance and are amazingly good value for the money; still, I spend plenty of time thinking about possible improvements.

In that regard, it's useful to have multiple systems to play with: the HT set up, the family room TV system, the bedroom system. I'm going to work on getting my daughter interested in a system for her bedroom -- right now she listens only to earbuds her computer or Creative MP2 player. Sad, really

[hifitommy]

...of saying that one is afraid that their firmly held beliefs might be proven wrong when depending on one sense alone?" (mark w)

nope. its a tension thats added that subtracts from concentration. other opponents of routine dbt cite the same. and as i stated before, proper dbt is quite difficult to set up and carry out. it turns into a waste of time and effort for picking between products.

long term listening is more revealing and productive.

[Florian]

Try to get her an iPOD and then the new WADIA docking station :-)

[E-Stat]

you should have been here a couple of years ago when mtrycrafts and eyespy used to frequent this board.

That's funny, I just mentioned him on another thread. What I found to be decidedly non-scientific about their pontifications was the continual extrapolation of tests. Since DBTs resulted in a null result with two dollar Radio Shack interconnects, therefore, the same will be true with Nordost Valhalla. Right.

Mtry soldiers on as an Audioholic Warlord.

rw

[markw]

...of saying that one is afraid that their firmly held beliefs might be proven wrong when depending on one sense alone?" (mark w)

nope. its a tension thats added that subtracts from concentration. other opponents of routine dbt cite the same. and as i stated before, proper dbt is quite difficult to set up and carry out. it turns into a waste of time and effort for picking between products.

IOW, they can't hear any differences in a DBT. QED

long term listening is more revealing and productive.

Perhaps, but who says long term listening has to be sighted? These can just as easily be done without the listener being aware of what item they are listening to, can't they?

[Ajani]

...of saying that one is afraid that their firmly held beliefs might be proven wrong when depending on one sense alone?" (mark w)

nope. its a tension thats added that subtracts from concentration. other opponents of routine dbt cite the same. and as i stated before, proper dbt is quite difficult to set up and carry out. it turns into a waste of time and effort for picking between products.

long term listening is more revealing and productive.

The problem I find with the concept of long term listening, is that if you're already prejudiced by 'price tag' then I don't see how continuing to listen 'with your eyes' will make any difference.... If I've already convinced myself that a more expensive component/cable sounds better/different, then no amount of listening is likely to convince me otherwise...

Though I see some merit to the point about performance anxiety... keep in mind that ALL people face some kind of performance anxiety, whether at work, in social situations, in romantic encounters.... the way to get past performance anxiety is to practice... it's what athletes do to ensure that they can run their best race with millions of people watching them and actors do to ensure that they can still do that amazing performance on Broadway, with critics and fans alike watching their every move....

Though, performance anxiety is a factor in dbt... it certainly does not make it useless...

[Ajani]

That's funny, I just mentioned him on another thread. What I found to be decidedly non-scientific about their pontifications was the continual extrapolation of tests. Since DBTs resulted in a null result with two dollar Radio Shack interconnects, therefore, the same will be true with Nordost Valhalla. Right.

Mtry soldiers on as an Audioholic Warlord.

rw

That point is the major problem with dbt (and just about any scientific testing)... poor extrapolation of test results.... I fell into the same trap myself, earlier in my audio hobby... I thought that because I could not hear 'major' differences between two cheap CD Players, a dvd player and my mac-mini... that it meant that digital source sounded mostly the same... To do a real test I would also need to have compared more expensive sources to cheaper ones and different expensive ones against each other....

[Ajani]

Try to get her an iPOD and then the new WADIA docking station :-)

Or get her an iPOD, a Krell KID and Krell Papa Dock... lol

[E-Stat]

That point is the major problem with dbt (and just about any scientific testing)... poor extrapolation of test results....

Actually, the worst fallacy is the assumption that switch boxes used commonly in ABX tests on amplifiers and interconnects don't affect the outcome. Roger Russell and his acolytes affirm that the marginal 0.1 ohm impedance couldn't possibly make a difference. What they completely forget is the common ground connections effectively sum the outputs of the two devices under test anyway. In the case of amplifiers, the distortions are reflected back to the jacks because of the feedback loop. Of course, there is no difference when you are simultaneously comparing both to both.

To do a real test I would also need to have compared more expensive sources to cheaper ones and different expensive ones against each other....

I suggest clearing your head of "expense" when comparing two audio components. Cost is not a good determining factor for performance.

rw

[Feanor]

Try to get her an iPOD and then the new WADIA docking station :-)

Flo, Aj, for starters she's anti-iPod and chose against the Apple product. (Despite that I have an iPod myself.) What might work would be a nice USB DAC+headphone amp combo plus decent 'phones.

The real point is that she, like so many youth and not-so youth, just doesn't care about the sound quality.

[Ajani]

Actually, the worst fallacy is the assumption that switch boxes used commonly in ABX tests on amplifiers and interconnects don't affect the outcome. Roger Russell and his acolytes affirm that the marginal 0.1 ohm impedance couldn't possibly make a difference. What they completely forget is the common ground connections effectively sum the outputs of the two devices under test anyway. In the case of amplifiers, the distortions are reflected back to the jacks because of the feedback loop. Of course, there is no difference when you are simultaneously comparing both to both.

Why do they use switch boxes? That just seems lazy and creates controversy...

I suggest clearing your head of "expense" when comparing two audio components. Cost is not a good determining factor for performance.

rw

Agreed.... I don't assume more expensive to be better, what I should say is more highly regarded components (which unfortunately are usually more expensive)....

[Feanor]

What's wrong with dbt? If two audio components have the same measured response, but different price tags, how else can you impartially tell whether there is a real sonic difference between the two? Even well respected brands (such as Revel) use dbt to help determine whether there are real differences when they are testing new speakers... I'll agree that it's not easy to setup a proper dbt.... but once one it is setup, I think it as a very useful test...

However, regardless of how I feel about cables and differences between amps etc... I think we should respect someone else's right to believe what they want...

There is a bit of myth that DBTs never prove differences between components. That isn't true. Even the classic study by Ian Masters in Audio magazine proved that some listeners could in fact distiguish between certain pairs of amp with statistical significance.

However HFT is right: the effort to set up a scientifically sound and also compelling DBT is rarely worth it. Remeber: at best any DBT can only prove that under the very specific conditions of the test and for the given group of participants, difference where perceived. And no DBT can ever prove that no diffences exist.

[StevenSurprenant]

emaidel...

I'm sure that was hard to swallow, but very admirable!

I think we are all opinionated and that's okay as long as realize that we all have different tastes and different points of reference.

Sometimes it bothers us when people disagree, but in the big scope it really doesn't matter.

Recently, I was at a local audio store and I mentioned that I replaced my Levinson gear with a Panasonic receiver and thought that the Panasonic sounded much better. The gentleman told me that he had Levinson and made it very clear that he disagreed. He said and I quote, "I'd sure hate to hear your system", and he meant it. I just smiled and told him that he should not short change Panasonic till he actually heard it.

I realize that it sounds absurd to compare Panasonic with Levinson, but it is just my opinion. A few years ago, I would not believe that I would believe it either. Oh well!

I seen people compare the little T-Amp with highend gear and it reviewed favorably. Not as good as the good stuff, but impressive for what it was.

Anyhow, it really doesn't matter that people disagree with what you know or feel is fact. You just have to speak your mind and if they reject it, then that is too bad for them or perhaps their tastes go in a different direction.

I know it was hard to write what you did, but you have my respect for it.

[basite]

The real point is that she, like so many youth and not-so youth, just doesn't care about the sound quality.

if I may ask, how old is she? Younger kids (under 12 years old, for example) are more influencable, so here easier strategies could help. if she's older (about my age), it takes more work...

Here's a 'strategy' I also suggested to Slippers On for his son (and which eventually worked...): find a genre of music that you both like (or that she likes and you can live with), then find something decent recorded there, buy/download it , and play it on your system to grab her attention. (or whatever it takes so she'll listen to you system, without directly asking her to come listen to your system. Buying the cd, leaving it somewhere for her to see, and later on asking if she would have seen it somewhere. Causing her to know it's your cd usually works well.), so show interest of somekind. With a little luck, she'll appreciate both the music and how it sounds through a decent system, and might just be interested in having better sound quality for her music too. (she won't be an audio enthousiast at once, but there's a chance that she'll start to appreciate good sound quality)

(it's a rather simple explanation, but I hope you'll get the point...)
what kind of music does she listen to btw?

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Ajani]

if I may ask, how old is she? Younger kids (under 12 years old, for example) are more influencable, so here easier strategies could help. if she's older (about my age), it takes more work...

Here's a 'strategy' I also suggested to Slippers On for his son (and which eventually worked...): find a genre of music that you both like (or that she likes and you can live with), then find something decent recorded there, buy/download it , and play it on your system to grab her attention. (or whatever it takes so she'll listen to you system, without directly asking her to come listen to your system. Buying the cd, leaving it somewhere for her to see, and later on asking if she would have seen it somewhere. Causing her to know it's your cd usually works well.), so show interest of somekind. With a little luck, she'll appreciate both the music and how it sounds through a decent system, and might just be interested in having better sound quality for her music too. (she won't be an audio enthousiast at once, but there's a chance that she'll start to appreciate good sound quality)

(it's a rather simple explanation, but I hope you'll get the point...)
what kind of music does she listen to btw?

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Good strategy...

@ Feanor - Be careful what you wish for.... next thing you'll find that she feels the need to 'tweak' your main system to make it sound better!!!! lol

[Feanor]

if I may ask, how old is she? Younger kids (under 12 years old, for example) are more influencable, so here easier strategies could help. if she's older (about my age), it takes more work...
...

(it's a rather simple explanation, but I hope you'll get the point...)
what kind of music does she listen to btw?

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Bert, thanks for the suggestion. Thing is, my daughter is no 12 year-old, in fact she's 21, (older than you, eh?). She's not interested in my music, (or hardly so), and I don't really know what she listens to because I never hear it -- she only listens on headphones. (I could snoop her harddisk, but at her age I don't have the right to snoop for such a trivial reason.)

Note this: I'm not that keen to have her set up speakers in her room because her mother and I don't want the noise at 2-3 AM when she is quite likely to want to listen.

[basite]

Bert, thanks for the suggestion. Thing is, my daughter is no 12 year-old, in fact she's 21, (older than you, eh?). She's not interested in my music, (or hardly so), and I don't really know what she listens to because I never hear it -- she only listens on headphones. (I could snoop her harddisk, but at her age I don't have the right to snoop for such a trivial reason.)

Note this: I'm not that keen to have her set up speakers in her room because her mother and I don't want the noise at 2-3 AM when she is quite likely to want to listen.

she's indeed older as me...

If I recall correctly from the lessons at school (I study human science: relations, behaviour, psychology and stuff like that...), adults are more stubborn than teenagers, which means they'll want to do things on their own, they don't want 'help' from someone else unless they specifically ask for it. Which basically means that in case of your daughter, she'll have to realize herself that the sound coming from her earbuds is bad. This ain't gonna happen from itselves though, I'd still recommend the theory I explained in the previous post, but remember not to push her.
21 isn't that old though, my cousin got in touch with hifi thanks to me, and he's the same age as your daughter. he did show interest though...

have you tried telling her that constantly using those earbuds will damage her hearing permanently? find the right occasion to mention it, and mention something about new headphones too, maybe throw in birthday present or so too...
with a little luck, she'll start thinking about her hearing and at least show interest for hifi just to preserve her hearing...

and didn't you recently aquire a vintage marantz integrated
would make a decent heaphone pre too you know

these are all just things that came up in me, don't try them all at once, and think before you do. be subtle.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Mr Peabody]

Is Wadia still in business?

In regard to DBT or evaluating gear in our system I will not believe that we are convinced of any improvement just because of cost. That would mean everything I evaluated that cost more than I had I would have bought and that simply is not true. My C-J preamp cost $1k less than the ARC I auditioned and rejected. I preferred the C-J by a long shot. I have other examples as well but I don't think a list will convince anyone if that's their way of thinking. It's more than a little insulting when that camp makes these type of claims as if audiophiles/enthusiasts are mindless music zombies who only chase price tags to build a system.

[Ajani]

Is Wadia still in business?

Yes and it has a fairly expensive iPOD dock out now....

In regard to DBT or evaluating gear in our system I will not believe that we are convinced of any improvement just because of cost. That would mean everything I evaluated that cost more than I had I would have bought and that simply is not true. My C-J preamp cost $1k less than the ARC I auditioned and rejected. I preferred the C-J by a long shot. I have other examples as well but I don't think a list will convince anyone if that's their way of thinking. It's more than a little insulting when that camp makes these type of claims as if audiophiles/enthusiasts are mindless music zombies who only chase price tags to build a system.

I think that camp fully intends to be insulting....

However, just as there is some amount of 'performance anxiety' in DBT, there is also some amount of 'price bias' in sighted testing.... IMO, only a total fool is going to buy based solely on price.... but when the differences in sound quality are subtle, many people buy the more expensive option (if they can afford it)....

Also IMO, much of the problems in audio arise because some 'golden ear' audiophiles claim ultra-dramatic, night and day differences between just about any product.... Differences that are subtle or can't even be heard by 'regular ears'.... Most people can accept that subtle differences exist even if they can't hear them (as the person claiming to hear the difference may have better hearing)... but they are unlikely to accept the notion of dramatic differences, when they can't hear any difference...

[Mr Peabody]

To me if a difference or improvement is dramatic, anyone should be able to pick up on it.