Mutiny on the AR Board

[PeruvianSkies]

Ok,

I think most of us are aware of the dire situation with this site. I mean, it's pretty pathetic. There are about 20-30 of us who really help keep this site alive and that is just flat out sad. We need to take charge here people! We need to organize and stand up for our rights. This site should be run by the people and we ARE the people, so let's try and get AR back to a healthy place again. I am open to suggestions for sure and I have plenty myself, but nothing really seems to get done around this place regardless.

Don't get me wrong, AR is a very cool place and could be even better. I owe a great deal of my knowledge to this site, but it's not THE site, it's the people of this site. We are the ones that make this place interesting and informative. We need to breathe some life back into this dormant site. It would be great to see this place thrive with tons of visitors where we can have very good discussions on music, movies and audio. Think about what it would be like to educate the public on what good sound is, or what good music is, or movies etc etc. I think it's time we take the reigns on this, but I cannot do this alone. It will take the combined efforts of all of us to help make this place what it could be.

So who is with me????

[basite]

Count me in!!

[GMichael]

I'm all for coming up with ideas to help this place get more action. At any given point there are 4 to 10 times as many lurkers as members here. This is because if you do a search on Google for audio or video products, this site comes up more than most. The trick is for us to give these lurkers a reason to join into our conversations instead of just reading them. We have to make them feel welcome to join our family.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I think I've expressed my opinions about this site's *situation* more than once; it's for the most part fallen on deaf ears by the people who hold the reigns, so I've started splitting my online discussion time between here and a computer forum I recently discovered. PC gaming is another one of my passions.

I'll do whatever I can to help out PS, but don't be surprised if the efforts end up for not. FWIW, as much as I dislike Pix's style and the way he constantly insults the company I've long had the goal of being a part of, I've come to look at it as a means for me to promote my sense of humor. I think GM would agree.

I like spending time here and feel comfortable that for the most part others have grown to tolerate me (although I just recently got two red chicklets and a blue (?) one), but I'm just not that enthusiastic about this community anymore. Anyway, let's give it a shot!

[basite]

good point there Mike, however: How are you going to do that? thing is that alot of people google their question, find the answer here and move on, they don't join in because they already have their answer. Alot of those lurkers don't know much about audio & video, maybe that's why they don't join in, because they wouldn't know what to tell.

[GMichael]

I'm not sure yet, but that is the best way for us to get this place back in shape. Let's all work on ideas.

Here's my first one: On many other sites, I see chances to win free audio and video equipment. Registering is a requirement to win. Why not try that here. We could start off with something small like a calibration disk from Rives.

[basite]

yes, but who will be paying for the prizes? you can't give away stuff you don't have...

but winning prizes is a good thing...

another idea: on AK for example, you get discount on a number of sites (audio repair shops, & things like partsexpress or so) maybe we could try that too, asking those sites to give discount TO MEMBERS ONLY, in return they get a link to their site on the forums...

[Swish]

Ok,

I think most of us are aware of the dire situation with this site. I mean, it's pretty pathetic. There are about 20-30 of us who really help keep this site alive and that is just flat out sad. We need to take charge here people! We need to organize and stand up for our rights. This site should be run by the people and we ARE the people, so let's try and get AR back to a healthy place again. I am open to suggestions for sure and I have plenty myself, but nothing really seems to get done around this place regardless.

Don't get me wrong, AR is a very cool place and could be even better. I owe a great deal of my knowledge to this site, but it's not THE site, it's the people of this site. We are the ones that make this place interesting and informative. We need to breathe some life back into this dormant site. It would be great to see this place thrive with tons of visitors where we can have very good discussions on music, movies and audio. Think about what it would be like to educate the public on what good sound is, or what good music is, or movies etc etc. I think it's time we take the reigns on this, but I cannot do this alone. It will take the combined efforts of all of us to help make this place what it could be.

So who is with me????

...I'd like to hear some of your ideas. I'm involved in so many things that it's hard to concentrate on something that's not high on my priority list. I come to Rave Recordings for music and related info and to poke fun at my friends there. I try to go with the flow but can't commit to something that will take a lot of time because I don't have much of it to go around these days.

Swish

[Rich-n-Texas]

Who let you outta your cage Philly boy???

[Rich-n-Texas]

yes, but who will be paying for the prizes? you can't give away stuff you don't have...

I disagree. First prize could be all of Pixelthis's posts since he first started gracing us with his presence. Think about it... it's all here; just a matter of cut-n-pasting into one thread and then PM'ing it to the winner? Simple as that!

Sound good lemme know...

[Florian]

I was asked to comment on this thread. I have been here for ages, been a moderator and the cause *and sometimes a solution* to some problems. The problem is that there are no special things about this site!! Absolutly none!! There is no real DIY section which has good contributions. This is not a dedicated site to either small boxes, large boxes or ribbons, planars etc.. There are too many sections and not enough acceptance of other peoples choices and heavy critque from some members.

Just rammbling here...but why do you wanna stay here?

[SlumpBuster]

The problem is that there are no special things about this site!! Absolutly none!!

I think I know what your saying, I just don't think your saying it right. I think your trying to say AR is trying to be a "jack of all trades but a master of none." i.e. some sites focus on vintage or DIY or ultra-hi-end or HT, where as AR seems to try to address all but doesn't do any particular one very well.

But there is something special about AR that no other site has: the review section and google prominence. AK, Audioholics, ect are all nice but don't have anything near the review section like AR. How many of us wound up hear because of that review section. I know I did. The question is how to leverage that.

Also, the site is to slow.

[Kam]

i;ve always liked it here. i generally stick with the fav films board, and occasionally venture out into the other forums. but i think, just thinking out loud, that its all about penetrating the market that this site would target. and if they want to get more specific, targeting specific boards.

to be selfish, having movietickets or fandango banners on the fav films board, or having bmg/columbia house banners on the rave recs board, etc.

[Florian]

I think I know what your saying, I just don't think your saying it right. I think your trying to say AR is trying to be a "jack of all trades but a master of none." i.e. some sites focus on vintage or DIY or ultra-hi-end or HT, where as AR seems to try to address all but doesn't do any particular one very well.


Also, the site is to slow.

Yup, thats what i wanted to say. The review section, is not very helpfull to me. Basically, its as worthless as Audio Magzines because everyone has a different "goal" limit etc... For someone a Martin Logan Prodigy would be the holy grail, i personally consider it a start into High End.

I do love the photo galllery, but i erased them all after some jerk off kept on adding negative comments on my pictures out of jealousy.

[Feanor]

I was asked to comment on this thread. I have been here for ages, been a moderator and the cause *and sometimes a solution* to some problems. The problem is that there are no special things about this site!! Absolutly none!! There is no real DIY section which has good contributions. This is not a dedicated site to either small boxes, large boxes or ribbons, planars etc.. There are too many sections and not enough acceptance of other peoples choices and heavy critque from some members.

Just rammbling here...but why do you wanna stay here?

Very true: not much special here. Really, I just like the people, (mostly), plus it's possible to get a word in edge-wise.

As for "not enough acceptance of other peoples choices and heavy critique from some members", maybe, but there are far, far worse examples. To wit, Audio Asylum. There any comment is met with crushing criticism, not to mention sarcasm, contempt for your knowledge/experience, and a cynical view of your motivation for posting in the first place. Also, it' tops in terms of real and quasi-technical types, elitists, snobs, and very wealthy audiophiles. Hmmmm ... !! maybe that's what's special about AA. But do we want to be like that?

[kexodusc]

Very true: not much special here. Really, I just like the people, (mostly), plus it's possible to get a word in edge-wise.

As for "not enough acceptance of other peoples choices and heavy critique from some members", maybe, but there are far, far worse examples. To wit, Audio Asylum. There any comment is met with crushing criticism, not to mention sarcasm, contempt for your knowledge/experience, and a cynical view of your motivation for posting in the first place. Also, it' tops in terms of real and quasi-technical types, elitists, snobs, and very wealthy audiophiles. Hmmmm ... !! maybe that's what's special about AA. But do we want to be like that?

I agree, (especially about the AA cynicism). I visit some other forums regularly under different names - there's so much of the typical tired old audio debates that it becomes nauseating. How many debates about subjectivity/objectivity, cables, and (ugh) brand name wars can one take? Some sites really ruin this hobby for me. I hate every thread that errupts into a flame war about this brand vs that brand, this design vs that design, in response to a call for a recommendation. It happens here to some extent, but far less intense than some other sites. For too many audio forums, this hobby is as much about ego stroking as it is the enjoyment of music and the fun the hobby provides. Too many people find a way to throw an insult (either at an opposing point of view, a product, or person) into their thread responses. Why? What does this accomplish other than ego-masturbation?

I like ar.com more for the diversity, the odd-ball characters,the OT discussions, Fave-films, Rave Recs, and the odd engaging question/ discussion about audio. Ar.com is more like an airport than a destination...you can meet all sorts of people in the lounge in between flights if you chose to. If I want AA I'll go to AA. If I want audioholics, I go there - if I want a forum for DIY stuff, well I've got several I subsribe to as well. Some sites are so big that I never really recognize or "learn" about other members. Here I'm at least familiar with a few dozen personalities. I like the smaller scale of it too - I find some discussions help when 32 different people aren't all chimming in. Easier to follow. Seriously, I doubt any of us use ar.com as our only web forum for audio anything.

Specialty sites have their place - and I hope ar.com never becomes one, because then it just becomes "another one". The problem is like minds tend to flock together there, opinions converge, and they become boring and repetitive in many ways. I agree ar.com could be better. It used to be a lot better, and then it got censor crazy. But the censors have seemed to all but disappear...I would like to see more equipment review threads. More cool discussions about audio's current trends, all of the positives without the negatives. LJ recent exploits to find a new a/v receiver were rather interesting and helpful, for example...interesting thread. Nightflier's new speaker purchase was another.

I like the people here and more than anything, that's what keeps me hanging around. Whatever you guys (or whoever) decide to do with this site, I just hope it doesn't lose some of the good elements.

[basite]

I must agree with Kex,
Myself, I came here about 1 year ago, and started asking questions, which were kindly answered, without any snobism. Half a year later, I also registered on AK, and I like it there too, but it's different, like a vacation home, you can be there, even for very very long periods, but there will be a time when you'll have to come back to your real home, for me that is AR.

I enjoy reading the threads here, and I like the people here too, but it would be nice if there were more of those people...

[nightflier]

It's been said before, but I have some critiques about the advertising here. I have contributed and written code on lots of sites and if there is one thing I've learned is that advertising needs to be better thought out. I have a colleague at Google and he tells me that they have spent years researching this very topic; we talk about this almost every time we get together. My initial observation is that the contract with your ad agency is not working for you. The contract should be a blueprint for a growing relationship - it should be reviewed often and there should be regular meetings to re-establish goals and pre-established targets. Here are some initial thoughts I have:

- The ads take far longer to load than the pages. This is because of too reasons: crappy code and animation. The crappy code is just the ad agency's way of cutting costs and could be negotiated on when a contract is signed. The animation-factor is based on an outdated idea that animations get more click-throughs - that's not the case anymore, according to numerous studies - it actually irritates people more and angers them against the company who's products are being advertised. It certainly no longer translates to increased sales.

- The top advertising banner is only part of the width of the screen on most monitor resolutions. 800 pixels-wide screens are a very small percentage of the viewing public, today. The spaces on either side of the banner are wasted space. It could be used for other ads, or at the very least a themed background image - hmmm, I don't know, how about a graphic that has something to do with audio....

- The 800-pixel wide top ad is so small that if a user actually had this resolution, the right side banner would not be visible. This should be a bargaining point during contract negotiations. Here's a thought (and it could become a "revolution" in the advertising industry LOL): cut the height of the top banner in half and use a full 1024-pixel width. BTW, the "ideal banner height" used now, is also based on outdated research.

- Ads about Las Vegas getaways, life insurance, and childish attempts to get me to notice a lower interest rate because of some dancing silhouette, are a turn off. I'm here for audio-video, and would much rather see ads about that. Sometimes it almost feels like this site is about something else and I forget which one of my discussion forums I am on.

- I've heard all the excuses: "it's expensive to find the right companies", or "this is all we're getting from this ad agency," and the ubiquitous: "there are not enough companies willing to advertise in your market sector." Well then threaten to fire this ad agency! They are not the only game in town. Bottom line is they are not hustling hard enough for you.

- Website managers often forget that it is in the interest of the ad agency to find better advertisers because they make far more money on click-throughs and resulting sales. This is a bargaining chip for negotiations. With that in mind, the ad agency should lower its fees for industry-specific advertisers because those will generate more click-throughs.

There are other ways to advertise: look for an ad agency that has a fresher, more modern approach on advertising. I don't mean to sound like a shill for Google, but their AdWords approach really does work in the long run. Ask potential ad agencies to make proposals that demonstrate more subtle and better targeted advertising. Ask for current, future, and potential client lists. Look for an agency that sees you as a partner that is looking to grow with you: they should demonstrate a vested interest in your success. They should also offer projections about this success, projections that need to be reiterated as performance targets in the written proposal, from which the final contract is generated.

Evaluate how well they understand this industry. Your current ad agency may rave about what they've done for Martha Stewart or Macy's, but what do they really know about audio and video? Do they understand the future of this industry: what product families are gaining prominence and what product families are fading? Do they have a basic understanding of associated industries and market sectors such as computers, electronics, automation, product distribution channels, heck, even an understanding of raw materials availability? Everybody knows that most of the stuff is made in the far east, but do they even know where most of the audio-video products are designed and developed? Do they have even an inkling of the traditions, reputations, and cultures associated with high-end gear (Opera, Gryphon, Harbeth, come to mind). I'm not saying that I expect them to know this stuff as well as the readers here, but they should have some idea about it - and some of these should definitely be part of their presentation.

These are just some first impressions, and it leads me to one of two conclusions: either your ad agency is not working hard enough for you, or it is horribly outdated and should be put out to pasture. Of course another possibility is that someone dropped the ball in finding this agency, but I'll leave that to another discussion. Who knows, maybe it's just simple economics and AR just isn't that important of a client. Frankly I don't know - but what I do know is that a loss in visitors hurts the site as much as the ad agency.

[L.J.]

I agree with Feanor, Kex and who ever else made a "I like the people here" comment. I lurk a few sites but don't post there. I really don't care for all the traffic. Sometimes it does seem a little slow here, but it's never bothered me.

[kexodusc]

I've never noticed a speed issue, and it's safe to say I visit here a few times every day.

[Swish]

Who let you outta your cage Philly boy???

Well, I like most Philly sports and go to a fair number of shows there since they get lots of my favorite indie rock bands (The National, Beulah, etc.), but I live near Hershey, PA, so I resemble that comment.

G Swish

[PeruvianSkies]

As I had hoped it would seem that the majority of us here all the feel the same way and in fact many of us possess the ability to help make that change, the only problem is that we need to get organized and make a stand. If we can organize our efforts we can hopefully see some changes around here. Obviously we need a different management structure to see the changes carried out, and the one way to get that done is to figure out HOW more of us can contribute to those causes AND get some better/different advertising to enable more/better funding.

Of course the function of a 'mutiny' is to say that WE are not going to take this current situation anymore unless (said things) change. What I am basically hearing is that we are not getting enough people to stick around long enough and that we don't offer enough for those that are currently here. Maybe a better structure of the forums as well as some new creative ways to keep those that are here around longer. It also seems that many of you have voiced your opinions and thoughts before and nothing has been changed, which puts up a few red flags to me. If that is the case, than drastic changes need to be made and that can only be done if we work together as one. What would happen to AR if the to 90% of the posts/hits and activity were to suddenly go away? Because about 90% of the activity derives from about 20-30 of us. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!

Let's keep this discussion rolling as we progress towards a hopefully better AR.

[Swish]

Just rammbling here...but why do you wanna stay here?

I started visiting Rave Recordings years ago...probably about 8 or 9 as best I can recall...and was hesitant to post right away because they seemed to have their own little clique going. Once I got up the nerve, I was met with a ton of 'welcome' responses and I've never looked back. My wife and I (she doesn't post) have actually met 5 RR friends in the real world...one in New Orleans (along with his wife), one in NYC, and three in Toronto (one brought her husband and another brought his wife). We had a great time with all of them and found they were all very genuine and exactly as I expected them to be, just a nice bunch of people who know how to have fun.

Along with the great music discoveries, I also get some of my best advice here as well; digital cameras, scanners, web cams, you name it, but I get it from the members, not the review section, although I have checked out some audio equipment. We have some of the smartest people on RR and I go to them before anywhere else, and my results are usually very satisfying. They're also very generous and share their music and their ideas freely.

What else can I say?

Swish

[PeruvianSkies]

I started visiting Rave Recordings years ago...probably about 8 or 9 as best I can recall...and was hesitant to post right away because they seemed to have their own little clique going. Once I got up the nerve, I was met with a ton of 'welcome' responses and I've never looked back. My wife and I (she doesn't post) have actually met 5 RR friends in the real world...one in New Orleans (along with his wife), one in NYC, and three in Toronto (one brought her husband and another brought his wife). We had a great time with all of them and found they were all very genuine and exactly as I expected them to be, just a nice bunch of people who know how to have fun.

Along with the great music discoveries, I also get some of my best advice here as well; digital cameras, scanners, web cams, you name it, but I get it from the members, not the review section, although I have checked out some audio equipment. We have some of the smartest people on RR and I go to them before anywhere else, and my results are usually very satisfying. They're also very generous and share their music and their ideas freely.

What else can I say?

Swish

Yes, and it would be great if we can get more people to have a similar experience as yours and I feel the same. This place has been very beneficial for me, but I also hope that I can make it beneficial for others. Some people come here to GET something, while others like to GIVE out something....ideally we want the best of both. It's great to be able to give advice and discussion, but also great to get it in return, which many of us have.

How can we keep people here? How can we keep those that just come and make ONE post about how to help them set up their stuff and then the leave like a stranger in the night. If we can keep more people around here and ramp up the discussions as well as add some diversity and creativity than this place could really be awesome. I would like to see more activity in the PHOTO GALLERY as well.

I am prepared to do whatever I can to help this site out. I am on this site for a large majority of my day and therefore I feel that I can contribute in some way, shape or form. I am willing to do what I can, but I need to figure out the action steps needed to make that happen.

[mlsstl]

I've yet to really figure out if I have interests that mesh with others around here. I've tried to participate in (and even started) a few threads but apparently my take on things is not aligned with any one else's head. I've got about 38 years in this hobby, a basement full of audio test equipment from my more active building days, time on the professional side (sound engineer and stereo store manager years ago), a healthy growing and varied music collection (over 18,000 tunes), a current system and good experience in the computer side of music and just don't see much that grabs my attention. And, what I have to offer doesn't seem to grab anyone else's.

As someone else indicated, there does seem to be a lack of focus here. A bit of stereo, a dose of HT, some music, a hint of DIY and so on, but just no strong current that draws people in and lets them know they're in the right place.

There are a lot of great people here (and it is nice to be away from some of the nut-case name calling one sees elsewhere) but in summary, here's my two cents - the place needs a stronger identity.