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  1. #26
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    Glad things are coming together.

    How are you going to use the sub, for both music & movies? I'd think a powered sub with the many possible features would be a simpler way to go. The passive would need one of your channels of amplification or it's own external amp. Then if for music you may need a crossover, depends on how versatile your receiver's bass management is.
    Mark Levinson #512 SACD & 532h power
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    Marantz BD-7003 > AV-8003 > LINN 5125
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  2. #27
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    What Mr P said!
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  3. #28
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    I was thinking for theater only. Then again, how important is a sub while listening to music. Seems like the speakers produce good amount of bass. Down the road, I am planning on bi-amping. Nakamichi PA-7 low and PA-5 high.
    I am not planning on using the received to listen to music. My Nakamichi tuner sounds great. Eventually I will accumulate other equipment, which I will run through the preamp.
    Does not seem like there is a simple solution with the sub. My thinking actually was that if I resolve the original problem, that is to get the Onkyo to power main speaker via pre-outs, I would have good amount of juice left in the receiver, perhaps to power a passive sub with potentially sufficient amount of power. At least such combination seemed somewhat meaningful. Now as I am writing, I think powered sun plus distribution of remaining juice to the rest of the speakers is a better solution.
    The only problem is to get Onkyo to cooperate.

    So now I have tested everything. All components work. Amp, cables, Onlyo (other than pre-outs). What could the problem be?

  4. #29
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    All you have to do is hook up the powered sub to the sub out on the onkyo and you should be able to use if for music or HT.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  5. #30
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    I think I might have found the problem. In this thread Onkyo TX-NR809 preout problem

    From what I understood there could be mismatch between amp and receiver.
    I wonder of this is something that can be remediated.

  6. #31
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    you could use a tube buffer to correct the impedance mismatch
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  7. #32
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    Thanks Raven. May I ask what a tube buffer is.

  8. #33
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bean2011 View Post
    Thanks Raven. May I ask what a tube buffer is.

    Here, this explains it-


    Purity Audio Design Harmony Tube Buffer FAQ

    Before buying a tube buffer (there are a few to choose from like Yaqin or Grant Fidelity among others) be sure that an impedance mismatch is the problem so you don't waste money. What are you hearing to think that it is a mismatch?
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  9. #34
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    Just hum. I just thought I tried everything else. Also seems like the guy in the quoted thread had a similar issue. I am planning on joining Onkyo support forum to ask my specific question.
    You are. The tube buffers are expensive. Need to be sure.

  10. #35
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    I just tried something else. I have OPPO dvd and cd in addition to an old CD player. Old CD worked fine. OPPO, however, produces the same volume hum as the Onkyo, except you can actually hear the sound of music clearly. In the case of Onkyo nothing but hum.

  11. #36
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    I would like you to try something. Do any of your CD or DVD player's that makes the hum have a digital out put like an optical out? If so, connect it to the Onkyo via one of the digital optical inputs and see if you get a hum. My bet is that you don't get the hum and that it may be an issue with the RCA input on the Onkyo.

    On last thing. Have you tried plugging the CD player into another electrical socket that is on a different circuit? You may need a long ext. cord.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  12. #37
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    I ran the Oppo using RCA cables through preamp - amp. It works with Onkyo well. No issues. I just wanted to hear how it sounds using Nak. I will try a different outlet for the Oppo.

  13. #38
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    Plugged into a separate outlet using a long extension cord. Same issue. When I put RCA cable into OPPO or ONKYO speakers hum loudly. Tuner with the same cable work well.

  14. #39
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    What input are you plugging into on the Nak? I'm assuming you are talking about the Nak preamp?

    I'm wondering if you aren't having a similar issue as myself. I tried to run my HT preamp into the bypass input of my Pass preamp so I wouldn't have to switch speaker cables. The sound came through but I had a hum that was audible and I couldn't get rid of it no matter what I did. I used different cable, plugging gear into different outlets, tried to isolate the component, etc. It just had something to do with the connection between the two. I'm sure it's a freak ground issue. It's even more frustrating because all my gear is plugged into power conditioners and I use aftermarket power cords.
    Mark Levinson #512 SACD & 532h power
    Pass Labs XP-10 preamp
    Clearaudio Performance DC & Maestro v2 E, AcousTech Ph-1p
    Clarus Crimson loom - AC outlet to speaker terminal
    JBL 4367's & SAM3ha
    Revel S30's & SVS PC13 Ultra (sub)
    Marantz BD-7003 > AV-8003 > LINN 5125
    Transparent cables / Tributaries HDMI
    PS Audio Quintet & Surgex SA15&20

  15. #40
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    I figured it out guys. It was the TV. Unplugged the cable and all seems to work. Although I am slightly disillusioned by the sound. It is not what I expected to come out. There is a slight amount of amplification, but overall same flat experience. Possibly I may have not connected properly, but I tested by switching amp on and off on low volume. Meh.
    I was originally thinking of eventually getting a 5 channel amp like Audio Refinement multi five, and bi amping fronts with it and the Nak, and powering center and backs with remaining channels for surround experience. The second intended purpose of the 5 channel inthiught woukd be to enhance the sound of home theater. In other words to be used with Onkyo to amplify 5 speakers. Coming to conclusion that the former set up maybe excessive, as two fronts seem to oroduce all I need. The latter, on the other hand,seems ineffective and unimpressive.

  16. #41
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    Have you tried using the Onkyo auto speaker set up? The equalization helps a lot. There is also sound settings on the remote "music" "movie" etc. that may help.

    When adding an external amp you need to get one that will be enough of an upgrade in quality it makes it worth while.
    Mark Levinson #512 SACD & 532h power
    Pass Labs XP-10 preamp
    Clearaudio Performance DC & Maestro v2 E, AcousTech Ph-1p
    Clarus Crimson loom - AC outlet to speaker terminal
    JBL 4367's & SAM3ha
    Revel S30's & SVS PC13 Ultra (sub)
    Marantz BD-7003 > AV-8003 > LINN 5125
    Transparent cables / Tributaries HDMI
    PS Audio Quintet & Surgex SA15&20

  17. #42
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    Thanks Mr. Peabody. By auto speaker set up you mean the Audessey? I went into speaker set up and played with it few times. Did not see auto.

    I have Nakamichi PA-5. Is it not powerful enough to make a difference? I thought it was pretty good amp in terms of quality.

  18. #43
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    In your speaker set up you should have the option of manual or auto. Auto does use Audessey and you have to have the receiver's microphone plugged in. The receiver will have you position the mic in a few places in the room then it calculates a good response based on its readings from the mic. Both the Onkyo I had and my Marantz seems to sound much better with the Audessey EQ on.

    The Nak amp should be good. Not so much confidence in Audio Refinement.
    Mark Levinson #512 SACD & 532h power
    Pass Labs XP-10 preamp
    Clearaudio Performance DC & Maestro v2 E, AcousTech Ph-1p
    Clarus Crimson loom - AC outlet to speaker terminal
    JBL 4367's & SAM3ha
    Revel S30's & SVS PC13 Ultra (sub)
    Marantz BD-7003 > AV-8003 > LINN 5125
    Transparent cables / Tributaries HDMI
    PS Audio Quintet & Surgex SA15&20

  19. #44
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    It's strange that you feel that there is not enough power. That Onkyo puts out 130wpc and the Nak is 100wpc x7 with 30 peak amps. Both have enough power to drive demanding speakers.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  20. #45
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    Blackraven.
    The difference is almost negligible. Perhaps I have not connected it correctly, or did not choose the right setting. Maybe there is an issue with pre-outs.

    Mr. Peabody
    Will try Audissey. See what happens.

  21. #46
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    You will not notice any significant difference in power between the Onkyo and the Nak. Now you may notice differences in dynamic's and the way the power is delivered on dynamic music with peaks and valleys. There may be differences in detail, sound stage and tone. If you really want better sound you need to move up the food chain to more expensive gear. I noticed a significant improvement in going from a $2K amplifier to a used $6K amp. And 2 other big leaps in going from a $2k preamp to a used $9K preamp as well as a better DAC. I am not saying that you need to spend that kind of money to get a nice improvement in sound, but you get my point.

    Also, the sound is only as good as your weakest link. What music source and speakers are you using? What type of music are you listening to? Poorly recorded music, MP3's and such are not a good measure of what as system is capable of.
    Last edited by blackraven; 12-24-2015 at 02:39 PM.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  22. #47
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    Thanks Blackraven.
    My only reason to power Fronts via Onkyo preout is to have a better 5.1 HT experience, and to improve the sound of music I am playing on Amazon TV. My wife bought quite a few songs from them so I though might as well listen to it at an optimum which I am trying to discover. I understand it is not by far ideal source. As you mentioned it is quite the opposite.
    I made several changes and bi worse center and rears. Made quite difference. Fronts do sound better now too. May be I did not connect something right last time. Like you said, not much in terms of power,Bhutan not bad as far as detail. Overall I am happy.

    My fronts are Tannoy definition. center and rear Eyris.
    My only good source is Nak tuner. Getting a turntable soon. Planning on gradually acquiring different sources overtime and DAC too.
    $ is an issue of course. Looking for gems such as my Nak pa-5 which I got for $350. Any advice regarding what is out there for short money will be greatly appreciated.

  23. #48
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    Related to the post above.
    I am planning eventually on getting a second amp to biamp the fronts. It will be the first upgrade I was thinking of. With regards to this I have a stupid question.
    I was thinking of a three channel amp. Sine I have a 2 channel already, a thee channel one will power the remaining speakers. This is both for home threater and music listening.
    What I can't figure out if I can run 2 amps from my Onkyo receiver. I am still struggling somewhat with understanding of how sound technology operates.
    Does a 3 channel amp need 3 preouts?
    On separate note, my Nak preamp has two sets of outs for 2 separate amps. Can I power a 3 channel and my 2 channel amps from a total of 4 outs on the pre-amp?

  24. #49
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    I think that you may be wasting your time trying to improve on the HT experience by using separate amps. That Onkyo is an excellent HT AVR. You will just be complicating things and wasting money. You would be better off just buying a higher end AVR than to start messing with multi channel amps and trying to mess with the different sound and volume levels of different amps and all the different cables and space that the gear takes up. In addition, you will still be using the Onkyo's preamp section which will be the weak link of the system if you decide to go with higher end amps. I would rather see you buy an amp switcher for the front speakers and switch between your Onkyo for HT and the Nak gear for 2ch. This way, you will be able to use what ever preamp and amp you want for 2 ch Music (I use to use this type of system). Marantz and NAD make some great sounding AVR's and they would be good for 2ch music as well. Marantz also puts quality sounding phono preamps in their gear.

    MARANTZ SR7007 7.2 125wpc 4K Airplay A/V Receiver | Accessories4less

    MARANTZ SR6010 7.2 Atmos Full 4K AV Receiver Wi-Fi/BT/AirPlay | Accessories4less


    TV music is going to sound flat. Are you running TV music to the receiver via digital inputs so that you are using the receivers internal dac? That would be the best route.

    A three channel amps will have a left and right as well as a center or 3rd set of inputs as well as 3 sets of outputs. So you would run your front and center outputs from the Onkyo to the 3 channel amp for the front 3 speakers and use the speaker outs on the onkyo for the rear speakers.

    What is your budget for gear and do you plan on doing computer based music. For DAC's IFI and Schitt Audio make some nice DAC's in the $400-500 range. But there are cheaper good sounding DAC's. Going the used route can get you a nice DAC.

    Again with out knowing your budget, there are some very good sounding TT's in the $250-500 range such as the Pro-Ject Carbon Debut DC, Denon DP-300F, Teac TN-300.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

  25. #50
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    Thanks Blackraven.
    Yo guessed my budget correctly. Up to $500 and I am willing to go pre-owned rout. That is what I have been doing.
    Decided to leave Onkyo alone and use the switch between the systems. Eventually want to get a second more powerful amp like Nak P-7 to biamp fronts with my current P-5. Might biwire fronts and rears with 7 and 5 respectively. See what makes most sense. Speaking of a second more powerful amp. Any recommendations in that regard? P7 is pretty expensive considering budgetary limitations, but I am planning on waiting and saving to get it. Not sure if there is anything else out there matching in quality and price. I am eyeing Craigslist, and see someone selling 250w Carver A500x for $375. Also, 150-200w Nak 5II on Audiogon.

    Thanks in advance.

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