I have a problem here . . .

[Swerd]

with the selection of 996turbo to be the moderator of the Cables and Amp/Preamp forums. I don't believe he has an open mind or the proper understanding of various points of the view on these subjects.

To illustrate my objections read this thread from last April:
Mytrcraft is an idiot.

What do you think?

[pwh03]

hmm thats the only thread I have read of his, but I would have to say labeling someone you know little about an idiot isn't exactly the what Ilook for in a moderator.

ph

[markw]

...time will tell how even handedly these rules are applied. One of the more recent postings...

mtry, this ones for you ;^)

[ericl]

It is easier to get forgiveness than permission.

***
Forgiveness is the economy of the heart . . . Forgiveness saves expense of anger, the cost of hatred, the waste of spirits.
- Hannah More
***
As long as you don't forgive, who and whatever it is will occupy rent-free space in your mind.
- Isabelle Holland
***
Surely it is much more generous to forgive and remember, than to forgive and forget.
- Maria Edgeworth
***
It can go on and on, or someone must write 'The End' to it. I have concluded that only I can do that. And if I can, I must.(Ford’s pardon of Richard Nixon for Watergate)
- Gerald Ford
***
What power has love but forgiveness?
- William Carlos Williams
***
The heart of a mother is a deep abyss at the bottom of which you will always find forgiveness.
- Honoré de Balzac
***
To err is human, to forgive, divine
- Alexander Pope
***
There is no revenge so complete as forgiveness.
- Josh Billings

[dmb_fan]

It is easier to get forgiveness than permission.

***
Forgiveness is the economy of the heart . . . Forgiveness saves expense of anger, the cost of hatred, the waste of spirits.
- Hannah More
***
etc... etc...

In my opinion, these quotes do not appropriatealy address the complaint at hand.

-Adam

[Feanor]

... to forgive devine. Since I'm human, I don't always forgive."
- Bill Bailey

...
To err is human, to forgive, divine
- Alexander Pope
***
...

[ToddB]

Woochifer, I'm going to use you as an example, because what you're doing is indicative of one of the larger problems on this board. I promise to be as kind as possible.

Your posts provided me with this response, because you said this --

"where any and every ridiculous claim goes"
"money pit approach"
"I'm simply trying to keep the approach real"
"yet another safe haven for all varieties of nonsensical claims"

after you said this --

"if it facilitates topical discussions and keeps the excesses and BS from taking over"

Because of my experiences with audio, I could classify your set of characterizations as excesses and BS. If I tell somebody that I've frozen CDs and it made them sound better, does that mean my claim is ridiculous just because you might say so? If I tell somebody that I think upgrading a component would be wise, does that mean I'm promoting a "money pit" approach just because you might say so? If I tell someone that in my system cable A sounds much better than cable B, does that mean my approach is less real than yours, just because you might say so?

Do you see where I'm going with this? The problem appears to be that you (and you are by no means the only one doing this) see fit to denigrate perspectives and experiences that do not agree with your own. That is the kind of antagonism we are trying to get rid of. If you have a contrary experience, then say what yours is. If you disagree with an approach, then say what yours would be. If you have a differing opinion, then say what yours is. Nobody is trying to force you to keep quiet about experiences you don't share, or approaches you think are wasteful, or opinions with which you disagree. But, you are going to have to find a way to coexist with all of those things, and allow people to exercise their own discretion in deciding which course of action they think is best for them.

What we are trying to do is to stop people from being attacked by those who do not share their perspective. Such behavior has driven untold numbers of former and potential members from this site. As difficult as it may be, people here are going to have to accept that not everyone else is going to share their world view regarding audio.

You also said, "I'm fine with a wide range of options". Well, here's your chance to prove it.

[Quagmire]

I posted this on the new Audio Lab board. I'm going to post it here too because the arguments are the same and I think this applies.

Let me share a little story with you. A college student is sitting in a philosophy class on the first day of school. The professor introduces himself and begins to lay out some of what will be discussed in his class throughout the course of the semester. As part of his introductory speach he make the statement, "...there are no absolutes". From the back of the room, a hand is raised. The professor, looking a little bit bothered that someone had nerve to interrupt his speach reluctantly acknowledges the student. "Yes, what is it?" he says. The student stands up and asks, "I just wanted to know, sir... did you mean that last statement, absolutely?".

How can the professor answer? If he answers Yes to defend his position then he has just provided evidence to contradict the statement that he has made. But If he answers No, then he has just disavowed the very point he was trying to make and abandoned his position. His premise is an untenable position.

I think this Objectivist/Subjectivist thing is kind of like the professor and the student: It's a conundrum. From the Objectivist point of view, the Subjectivist places himself in an undefendable position... "There are no absolutes, everything is relative and subjective." However, it would be a huge mistake for the student to conclude that because the professor's position wasn't tenable, this proved that the polar opposite was true --- that EVERYTHING is absolute. Where I think both of these groups make their biggest mistake is to take the most extreme position within their philosophy. The Objectivist can defend the statement "There ARE absolutes", but he cannot defend the statement "EVERYTHING is absolute. Likewise, the Subjectivist can't defend the statement "There are NO absolutes" but he can defend the statement that "SOME THINGS are not absolute".

As this story relates to the audio enthusiasts who post here, IMHO the more polarized their positions are within their philosophy, the more untenable their arguments become. It's no wonder that there always exists this impasse between the two groups: because as the positions become more extreme they also become less credible. Unfortunately, due to human nature they become less civil too.

Just some food for thought.

Q

[46minaudio]

Woochifer, I'm going to use you as an example, because what you're doing is indicative of one of the larger problems on this board. I promise to be as kind as possible.

Your posts provided me with this response, because you said this --

"where any and every ridiculous claim goes"
"money pit approach"
"I'm simply trying to keep the approach real"
"yet another safe haven for all varieties of nonsensical claims"

after you said this --

"if it facilitates topical discussions and keeps the excesses and BS from taking over"

Because of my experiences with audio, I could classify your set of characterizations as excesses and BS. If I tell somebody that I've frozen CDs and it made them sound better, does that mean my claim is ridiculous just because you might say so? If I tell somebody that I think upgrading a component would be wise, does that mean I'm promoting a "money pit" approach just because you might say so? If I tell someone that in my system cable A sounds much better than cable B, does that mean my approach is less real than yours, just because you might say so?

Do you see where I'm going with this? The problem appears to be that you (and you are by no means the only one doing this) see fit to denigrate perspectives and experiences that do not agree with your own. That is the kind of antagonism we are trying to get rid of. If you have a contrary experience, then say what yours is. If you disagree with an approach, then say what yours would be. If you have a differing opinion, then say what yours is. Nobody is trying to force you to keep quiet about experiences you don't share, or approaches you think are wasteful, or opinions with which you disagree. But, you are going to have to find a way to coexist with all of those things, and allow people to exercise their own discretion in deciding which course of action they think is best for them.

What we are trying to do is to stop people from being attacked by those who do not share their perspective. Such behavior has driven untold numbers of former and potential members from this site. As difficult as it may be, people here are going to have to accept that not everyone else is going to share their world view regarding audio.

You also said, "I'm fine with a wide range of options". Well, here's your chance to prove it.

This is the way I see it..If a newbe is looking for help because he wants to correct boomy bass from his sub and gets a responce to buy a pair of 200$ cables then it is ridiculous.Woochifer can give real information to correct the problem.Somtimes this information costs the newbe nothing .This board is also about HELPING PEOPLE.Throwing money into expensive cables will not help this problem Period.We have lost two of the best on this board lets not lose any more...

[E-Stat]

This is the way I see it..If a newbe is looking for help because he wants to correct boomy bass from his sub and gets a responce to buy a pair of 200$ cables then it is ridiculous.

Is it required to label that hypothetical responder a "believer in alien abductions" prior to making better suggestions yourself?

rw

[kexodusc]

WTF is wrong with having everyone give their 2 cents worth? Geez, are you guys all so bloody sure that even the dumbest newbie who has a $500 HT system is going to spend $200 on a cable even IF it gets suggested without thinking twice about it?

I say let all the suggestion come...the $200 sub cables, Wooch's room treatments and parametric EQ's, Mtrycraft's advice on perception and bias, HiFi Tommy's years of experience with tons of gear, etc...and let the POSTER decide which option they take...In the end it's their responsibility anyway.

Chances are poster is going to consider heavily all suggestions made. The solutions that are free or very cheap to do are likely to be done first. If they still don't get what they're after, and a new amp or $300 dollar cable is suggested next, they're might try that. If the subjective advice was good, the poster is happy, if the objective advice was good, same thing.

What needs to be filtered out, and I believe what everyone agrees on, are the repetitive battles that happen (ie: Threadjacking)...Hifi Tommy vs, mtrycraft, Sir Terrence vs. WmAx version's 1 & 2, RGA vs. Woochifer, etc, etc, etc...They drag on, and generally are responsible for the worst statements ever being made. In defending positions, everyone eventually slips up in their language and gets called out on it...then ideas are misconstrued, people made angry...and revenge is sought. The cycle continues.

Posters (even newbies) have a duty to themselves to decipher fact from fiction. If they need help doing this they can always ask, but let them be exposed to all ideas, not just the purely subjective, or the purely objective ones. No promises are being made here, advice is only worth exactly what you pay for it, sometimes less. But as long as it's free, you might as well get as much as you can.

Enough crying about all this already...get back to talking about all things audio. If the powers-that-be screw this site up, then leave, and never come back if that's what you want...but don't make the place even worse than it may or may not be by constantly bickering about the forum rules and operations.

[Woochifer]

Woochifer, I'm going to use you as an example, because what you're doing is indicative of one of the larger problems on this board. I promise to be as kind as possible.

Your posts provided me with this response, because you said this --

"where any and every ridiculous claim goes"
"money pit approach"
"I'm simply trying to keep the approach real"
"yet another safe haven for all varieties of nonsensical claims"

after you said this --

"if it facilitates topical discussions and keeps the excesses and BS from taking over"

Because of my experiences with audio, I could classify your set of characterizations as excesses and BS. If I tell somebody that I've frozen CDs and it made them sound better, does that mean my claim is ridiculous just because you might say so? If I tell somebody that I think upgrading a component would be wise, does that mean I'm promoting a "money pit" approach just because you might say so? If I tell someone that in my system cable A sounds much better than cable B, does that mean my approach is less real than yours, just because you might say so?

Do you see where I'm going with this? The problem appears to be that you (and you are by no means the only one doing this) see fit to denigrate perspectives and experiences that do not agree with your own. That is the kind of antagonism we are trying to get rid of. If you have a contrary experience, then say what yours is. If you disagree with an approach, then say what yours would be. If you have a differing opinion, then say what yours is. Nobody is trying to force you to keep quiet about experiences you don't share, or approaches you think are wasteful, or opinions with which you disagree. But, you are going to have to find a way to coexist with all of those things, and allow people to exercise their own discretion in deciding which course of action they think is best for them.

What we are trying to do is to stop people from being attacked by those who do not share their perspective. Such behavior has driven untold numbers of former and potential members from this site. As difficult as it may be, people here are going to have to accept that not everyone else is going to share their world view regarding audio.

You also said, "I'm fine with a wide range of options". Well, here's your chance to prove it.

What I'm doing is indiciative of one of the larger problems on the board?! Are you kidding me? My approch has always been about keeping things in perspective, and sharing things that I've tried for myself.

If you think what I post is BS and excess, FINE, tell me why and suggest an alternate approach; and I will stand corrected if I find that freezing CDs does produce an audible change. I think you're trying to throw my concerns in with the same pit with some of the naysayer approaches of asking everybody to prove their observations, and that's a big mistake.

I'm sorry, but if somebody posts something that I have never observed in my own listenings or I feel is grossly exaggerated or I feel is flatout wrong, I will tell people why and I will suggest alternate approaches. I'm not condoning the oft-told naysayer approach of hiding behind the DBT and "can't prove a null hypothesis" response, and shifting the burden of proof. I'm simply saying that if somebody goes on here and starts spouting off a bunch of what I regard as BS that I've never been able to verify in my tests and listenings, I will let my opinion be known. If I think it's a waste of money to opt for a $200 subwoofer cable over a $100 parametric equalizer to remedy room-induced issues, I will state that, tell the poster why, and I link to my website where I've done my own measurements. You can't tell me that the subwoofer cable suggestion has equal merit, and all the polite civility in the world isn't going to make that type of suggestion any less wrong than it is. Like I said, I'm open to options, but when I see a spade, that's what I'll call it. If suggesting to people what I regard as more pragmatic, budget conscious, real world approaches is "indicative of one of the larger problems" with this board, then the priority of the new regime is obviously not to help the end user.

[Resident Loser]

...it's a gentler, kinder place where, like in those dancing schools, all the little kiddie-winkies get a big blue ribbon with a nice shiny gold star, even if they fell on their @$$...

jimHJJ(...why, there's no difference between landing on the moon and puttin' a bone in yer nose...)

[Monstrous Mike]

The problem appears to be that you (and you are by no means the only one doing this) see fit to denigrate perspectives and experiences that do not agree with your own.

Ironically, this is exactly what you are doing and many others like you as well. My experience is that I have never heard any cable differences and I have been laced with:

- poor hearing
- low-fi system
- head in the sand
- in denial
- engineering degree out of CrackerJacks
- full of hot air
- in denial

And further, you equate "denigrate" with "disagree" and "attack" with "provide an opinion". Just because I don't believe there is a difference between cables doesn't mean I am calling you a liar. I once posted 14 different reasons (other than actual cable differences) where a person could perceive a sonic difference. Frankly, until you eliminate those possibilities, being certain that differences were due to cables is both unscientific and illogical.

If you want to see real denigrations and real attacks, visit rec.audio.opinion on Google. From what I last read, there were lawsuits, restraining orders and accusations of pedophilia.

[dmb_fan]

with the selection of 996turbo to be the moderator of the Cables and Amp/Preamp forums. I don't believe he has an open mind or the proper understanding of various points of the view on these subjects.

To illustrate my objections read this thread from last April:
Mytrcraft is an idiot.

What do you think?

I'd like to point out that the post in question is nearly two years old. Perhaps 996turbo has matured since then. Let's hope so!

But I agree with you that the post in question demonstrates absolutely NONE of the qualities I would seek in a forum moderator. Perhaps 996turbo's first job as a moderator will be to go through and delete all of his existing innappropriate posts.

-Adam

[JSE]

I'd like to point out that the post in question is nearly two years old. Perhaps 996turbo has matured since then. Let's hope so!

But I agree with you that the post in question demonstrates absolutely NONE of the qualities I would seek in a forum moderator. Perhaps 996turbo's first job as a moderator will be to go through and delete all of his existing innappropriate posts.

-Adam

Not that I care but, the post in question was only 4 months ago. Where did you get 2 years?

I say, give him a chance.


I'm much more concerned about Sir TT. Does he actually know anything?

JSE

[dmb_fan]

Not that I care but, the post in question was only 4 months ago. Where did you get 2 years?

I say, give him a chance.


I'm much more concerned about Sir TT. Does he actually know anything?

JSE

Good eye, JSE! I mistook the poster's join date--November 2002--for the date of the post in April of this year.

Wow. Four months changes things significantly! That's exactly what we need! Moderators who--totally unprovoked--recently flamed longtime members!

This whole situation is a real shame.

-Adam

[ToddB]

I say, give him a chance.

Oh really?

Is that why in this post: Mytrcraft is an idiot.
you told him to go away?

Karma can be so funny sometimes.

[JSE]

Oh really?

Is that why in this post: Mytrcraft is an idiot.
you told him to go away?

Karma can be so funny sometimes.

I just said give him a chance. He actions will speak for him from this point forward. Do I have reservations? Sure, I guess? Although, I don't really care who is a moderator. If any moderator becomes a problem then I am confident that our new Administrator will pull the plug on him/her. In a perfect world that is.

Everyone just needs to chill out and let time determine if 996Turbo will be a good moderator and if this these boards will be better or worse than before under new management.

JSE

[ericl]

Don't worry guys, moderators will be subject to the rules as well.. They won't be able to abuse their powers or other people.

-Eric

[Woochifer]

I just said give him a chance. He actions will speak for him from this point forward. Do I have reservations? Sure, I guess? Although, I don't really care who is a moderator. If any moderator becomes a problem then I am confident that our new Administrator will pull the plug on him/her. In a perfect world that is.

Everyone just needs to chill out and let time determine if 996Turbo will be a good moderator and if this these boards will be better or worse than before under new management.

JSE

You nailed my sentiments exactly. If the new moderators do their job, then that can improve the quality of the board if it facilitates topical discussions and keeps the excesses and BS from taking over.

There have been many instances on this board where some moderation would have helped immensely, like when the trolls rolled in a couple of years ago and pretty much drove half of the regulars off the board. Those were cases where a moderator even loosely enforcing the rules would have helped keep the discussions focused on topic rather than letting trolls hijack every thread and hurl insults right and left.

I'm willing to see if the new approach works, but I'm also leery of seeing this site turned into a clone of other boards where any and every ridiculous claim goes, and meaningful challenges or technical discussions get censored. If not for this board, I would not have done my own experiments with room treatments and subwoofer tuning. I much appreciate that perspective (which is not only technically sound, but based on real world improvements that are both measurable and audible), because on other boards I probably would have been handed the usual "upgrade to expensive cables, go with outboard DACs, and double your amp wattage" money pit approach. If the new rules mean that I can no longer suggest that a $16 box of acoustic ceiling panels will do more for sound quality than a $7,500 battery-powered interconnect ever will, then that would be an immense disservice to everybody who comes onto this board to get some pointers on how to get more enjoyment out of their system.

[46minaudio]

Oh really?

Is that why in this post: Mytrcraft is an idiot.
you told him to go away?

Karma can be so funny sometimes.

This post is negitive and asks for proof..Eric please delete this post by ToddB

[E-Stat]

This post is negitive and asks for proof..Eric please delete this post by ToddB

You may or not be aware that I have, after initially having declined the offfer, volunteered to join the ranks of moderators here.

I do not concur that this post "asks for proof". Unlike the poster's question, demands for proof cannot be answered with a simple "yes" or "no".

rw

[ToddB]

I have a problem here with the selection of 996turbo to be the moderator of the Cables and Amp/Preamp forums. I don't believe he has an open mind or the proper understanding of various points of the view on these subjects.

What do you think?

I think that --

he is open-minded enough to trust his hearing
he properly understands that what he hears is the point of view that matters
he has a notable amount of experience with audiophile equipment
he'll make a good moderator

[topspeed]

A "moderator" isn't God. They are more like a baby sitter making sure the kids don't bite each other's ears off, that's all. In fact, a good moderator won't be seen as a moderator at all, just another poster. While I agree that particular post wouldn't be something I'd put in my resume, I don't think 996 will be a problem.

Besides, how bad could a Porchephile be ?