An elitest's viewpoint.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

Although this has become a circular discussion, I enjoyed reading through all the viewpoints.

Aside altogether from MFs comments, 4K is not overly expensive if you know what your getting and why. So many people will drop that extra 4 or 5K on a car that does nothing different than one 4 or 5K less because of the status symbol and what the car says about the person. (or so they imagine) Same people will drop many hundreds or thousands on a watch that does not tell time any differently than a $50 watch, again because of what they perceive it says about them or how it makes them look. Then that same person will whine about how outrageously expensive a High Quality $4K amp is. Where is the reasoning behind that scenario?

I personally have never shelled out more than $1300 for new Amp, an Odyssey Stratos with upgrades, and I did spend $2500 on new Dynaudio speakers.

I do however own a few pcs of gear that fall into the price range that seems to have everyone crying foul. I can tell you first hand that these perform a whole lot better than the lesser price gear I have owned. Enough so that it is a little easier for me to justify that they just may be worth what they cost new.

I'm not sure how many in this thread have ever heard what a VAC pre amp can do (ha, when properly tubed) or what a 15 y/o Counterpoint amp can do when compared to an Emotiva or even my Stratos.

Maybe after you go hear some systems similarly setup, you would also agree that even if you would "choose not to afford them" you would come to the conclusion that they are killer compared to the run of the mill stuff everybody has.

And yes, I did say "choose" to afford. I say that because we all have different priorities. Some people smoke ciggies still and think nothing of dropping several thousand dollars to support that habit but turn around and say a top quality amp is too expensive at $4K. Others will continue to drive around in their V8-Hemi trucks getting 10 gallons to the mile and wasting many thousands in gas that they could spend on quality audio, if they so "choose".

I don't make a huge amount of money, and my wife can't work a full time job due to health issues so we have become very frugal, called cheap by others. I have a retirement account that we have built up over the years. I do have some money in places where I can get to it in a pinch. I could afford to go out and buy $20k on new high end gear if I so choose.

In the scheme of things. $4k for a high quality tube amp that has the potential of bringing you 15 years of musical happiness is not that overly expensive. Many here will also say that an OPPO93 is expensive and overkill. I own one and am absolutely satisfied that I got a machine that plays just about anything and has great streaming ability. Someone else may be perfectly satisfied with a $49 black friday player, but for what it is and does, the OPPO is not overly expensive.

How many people spend close to $100 / month on phone plans, or cable? Well that is one place I save my money in order to buy other things that the person who has to run out and buy every new iProduct is now gonna call expensive.

It's all about choices we all make. I'd be willing to bet that each one of you saying that a $4K amp is over the top has a ridiculous phone plan, runs out to buy the latest technology items, has cable or sat, drinks good beer, drives a car that they think says something about themselves, and has more than a simple Timex watch, or smokes cigarets.

Anyway, Stereophile still caters to the top money people even if they finally review 1 or 2 mid tier items per month. Just look at the advertisements in the mag and count how many are for a $200 pair of speakers or a $600 HT Receiver. Don't kid yourselves. And don't think $4K is expensive in a world where you can spend way more than that for not much more than status. I'm sure if you wanted one, you could find ways to save the money to get one.

That was a great post above about how it's not how much money you make, it's more about how much money you don't stupidly spend. It's about priorities. Some peoples priority is to continue smoking when they know it is killing them and wasting money they could easily spend on quality audio gear, if they so "choose".

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:thumbsup: Greenies for Ya.

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Originally Posted by hifitommy

>"high-end" of hifi is a niche market<

mmmm, not so. attend rmaf or THE show in vegas, NY, or newport beach and you may change your tune. ....

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the masses which attend the shows and subscribe to the publications are mostly tire-kicking-droolers (myself included) and not serious buyers. most of the buying audio market dont even bother taking a look.

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Originally Posted by hifitommy

.... thse of us who feel like dabbling in the deep end of the pool enjoy the water as much as you.

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i'm with you 100% and have taken an occasional plunge myself. this hobby is about individual enjoyment reached on ones own terms - wherever that takes you, but according to Fremer i shouldnt even be in the pool.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

Although this has become a circular discussion, I enjoyed reading through all the viewpoints.

Aside altogether from MFs comments, 4K is not overly expensive if you know what your getting and why. So many people will drop that extra 4 or 5K on a car that does nothing different than one 4 or 5K less because of the status symbol and what the car says about the person. (or so they imagine) Same people will drop many hundreds or thousands on a watch that does not tell time any differently than a $50 watch, again because of what they perceive it says about them or how it makes them look. Then that same person will whine about how outrageously expensive a High Quality $4K amp is. Where is the reasoning behind that scenario?

I personally have never shelled out more than $1300 for new Amp, an Odyssey Stratos with upgrades, and I did spend $2500 on new Dynaudio speakers.

I do however own a few pcs of gear that fall into the price range that seems to have everyone crying foul. I can tell you first hand that these perform a whole lot better than the lesser price gear I have owned. Enough so that it is a little easier for me to justify that they just may be worth what they cost new.

I'm not sure how many in this thread have ever heard what a VAC pre amp can do (ha, when properly tubed) or what a 15 y/o Counterpoint amp can do when compared to an Emotiva or even my Stratos.

Maybe after you go hear some systems similarly setup, you would also agree that even if you would "choose not to afford them" you would come to the conclusion that they are killer compared to the run of the mill stuff everybody has.

And yes, I did say "choose" to afford. I say that because we all have different priorities. Some people smoke ciggies still and think nothing of dropping several thousand dollars to support that habit but turn around and say a top quality amp is too expensive at $4K. Others will continue to drive around in their V8-Hemi trucks getting 10 gallons to the mile and wasting many thousands in gas that they could spend on quality audio, if they so "choose".

I don't make a huge amount of money, and my wife can't work a full time job due to health issues so we have become very frugal, called cheap by others. I have a retirement account that we have built up over the years. I do have some money in places where I can get to it in a pinch. I could afford to go out and buy $20k on new high end gear if I so choose.

In the scheme of things. $4k for a high quality tube amp that has the potential of bringing you 15 years of musical happiness is not that overly expensive. Many here will also say that an OPPO93 is expensive and overkill. I own one and am absolutely satisfied that I got a machine that plays just about anything and has great streaming ability. Someone else may be perfectly satisfied with a $49 black friday player, but for what it is and does, the OPPO is not overly expensive.

How many people spend close to $100 / month on phone plans, or cable? Well that is one place I save my money in order to buy other things that the person who has to run out and buy every new iProduct is now gonna call expensive.

It's all about choices we all make. I'd be willing to bet that each one of you saying that a $4K amp is over the top has a ridiculous phone plan, runs out to buy the latest technology items, has cable or sat, drinks good beer, drives a car that they think says something about themselves, and has more than a simple Timex watch, or smokes cigarets.

Anyway, Stereophile still caters to the top money people even if they finally review 1 or 2 mid tier items per month. Just look at the advertisements in the mag and count how many are for a $200 pair of speakers or a $600 HT Receiver. Don't kid yourselves. And don't think $4K is expensive in a world where you can spend way more than that for not much more than status. I'm sure if you wanted one, you could find ways to save the money to get one.

That was a great post above about how it's not how much money you make, it's more about how much money you don't stupidly spend. It's about priorities. Some peoples priority is to continue smoking when they know it is killing them and wasting money they could easily spend on quality audio gear, if they so "choose".

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Hyfi, well said, Bravo

You mention advertisements. If an advertiser is paying "X" amount for an ad in Stereophile, you have to sort of figure that they want get the word out on their latest and greatest gear. So they're not going to be putting ads in the stereo mags for a $49.00 Blu-Ray player. Same way that when you go to see a concert the artist is told to do songs from their latest release to promote sales.

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Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington

Hyfi, well said, Bravo

You mention advertisements. If an advertiser is paying "X" amount for an ad in Stereophile, you have to sort of figure that they want get the word out on their latest and greatest gear. So they're not going to be putting ads in the stereo mags for a $49.00 Blu-Ray player. Same way that when you go to see a concert the artist is told to do songs from their latest release to promote sales.

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So true.

I really expected some pushback on my post.
Is common sense and a reality check settling in?

i was just rereading the fremer article. he referred to the MBL amps he had the music ref amp setting between. they have a price tag of $90k usd!!

that is really the point he was trying to make. when someone is quoted out of context, they can be easily damned for what they said and not what was intended to be conveyed.

HyFiTommy:

I refer you to posts #'s 6, 20 and 94. I have no problem with his opinion of what's expensive...I do have a problem with his snobbish attitude.

i still believe he has been taken out of context. read his whole review.

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Originally Posted by hifitommy

i still believe he has been taken out of context. read his whole review.

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Sure, he was taken out of context: so what. His literal comment reflects the attitude of typical Stereophile and TAS reviewers and their editors.

Personally I have no more interest in a $4200 component than a $90,000 one. Both of these rags sometines review lower cost components, (TAS more so by my impression), but both take a condescending attitude toward them.

we will have to agree to disagree on both points.

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Originally Posted by hifitommy

i still believe he has been taken out of context. read his whole review.

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I did read his whole review...and I enjoyed it. Mr. Fremer is a very capable audio writer and, for years, has been one of my favorites. But, perhaps he should stick to reviewing and leave the editorializing to someone with more tact...like, maybe, his editor?

he is a newyorker! he will say and do what he wants. tact? i dont THINK so.

meantime, we all need not to be thin skinned.

Stereopile is a high end rag, so to them, yeah $4000 is not expensive.

Having said that. I spent $3000 on my Bryston in 2002.

As someone mentioned, amortize that over the number of years it'll last, a bargain. BTW, it has a 20 year transferable warranty.

Put 50% in your speakers and spend as you can afford. You'll be happy. The elitists will always justify their purchases in cost. I will say my experiences are that about $2-3k per component is a good hi end value point. Speakers are very subjective but about $4-6k is a sweet spot for high end without going off the cliff.

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Originally Posted by Rmac58

Having said that. I spent $3000 on my Bryston in 2002.

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As another point of reference, I spent $2000 on my Threshold in 1981.

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Originally Posted by Rmac58

As someone mentioned, amortize that over the number of years it'll last, a bargain.

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It still runs strong having been trouble-free all these years. The only added expense has been proactively replacing the Mallory electrolytics with new ones of the same computer grade series. The closest match ended up beefing up the power supply a bit to 105 joules.

^ Well bought, now at the time, I'm sure there was hesitation.

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Originally Posted by Rmac58

^ Well bought, now at the time, I'm sure there was hesitation.

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What?

^ Meaning that was a bunch of money back then.

Remember what Deepthroat said? Follow the money.

Futterman amps used to cost as much as $300 (stereo) to $500 (matched monoblocks) in 1960's through 1978.... and Futterman amps up to then had not been reviewed since about 1960....

One way to get you in the door is to challenge you..... You see, you covet, then you buy.

NYAL bought the Futterman patents & rights, raised prices 20X and beyond, advertised in Stereophile and... Gee-whiz, Stereophile gave the NYAL line fantastic reviews. This was pure coincidence.

This is similar to what PG wrote in #19

"I use the term DIY losely to include those small one man cottage industry types who hand build their products in basements and garages not for just a side income but for the sheer joy of their craft. Their products are rarely reviewed in audiophile publications and such individuals are far from the mainstream of high end audio yet their products are of the highest order. ...."

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Originally Posted by Rmac58

Stereopile is a high end rag, so to them, yeah $4000 is not expensive.

Having said that. I spent $3000 on my Bryston in 2002.

As someone mentioned, amortize that over the number of years it'll last, a bargain. BTW, it has a 20 year transferable warranty.

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That was me and you did buy one of the amps I would have imagined.

My Counterpoint is about 17 y/o now and still kicks ass so the fact that it listed for $4500 means it cost about $265 a year for great sound. Like I said, most people spend more than that on ciggies, phone plans, and status cars and watches.

^ Agreed, my amp so far cost $20 a month.
The speakers, now, $11.57 a month.
CD player, $8.33 a month.

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Originally Posted by hifitommy

he is a newyorker! he will say and do what he wants. tact? i dont THINK so.

meantime, we all need not to be thin skinned.

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I am insulted with this statement. I am a former New Yorker, born and raised there. I am not tact,,,,,tact,,,,,,oh damn may I am.

Never mind, back to your regularly scheduled disagreement.....

Once you buy a real high end component, you quickly get the idea WHY you bought it. Uusing products like these gives you the knowledge that they are truly better than the consumer grade pieces you owned and maybe STILL own and use.

Some seemingly consumer grade products are worthy of the high end moniker such as the NAD 3020/1020 units. To go back to the inferior units you used in the past is usually less than pleasant in absolute terms. Livable, YES, but it leaves you with the yearning for higher end things.

It's hard not to get just a little haughty when you hear some people state that their run of the mill components are just as good as high end. You also try to encourage friends to take the step up. Knowing the prices of affordable high end and also NOT so affordable high end can make you sound like and elitist.

Fremer made the mistake of leaking that out in a public place, his column. Wek have beaten the sufficiently now, don't you think?

WAY cool STT! You can see where this can be endless.

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Originally Posted by hifitommy

WAY cool STT! You can see where this can be endless.

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It can be endless, because the term "expensive" is so relative. I think $4200 IS a bargain considering I have purchased mono blocks that costs $17,000 a piece for my studio.

Is this discussion digressing onto a new tact?