An elitest's viewpoint.

Michael Fremer of Stereophile just wrote, in describing the Music Reference RM-200 Mk.11 power amplifier: "It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive" (notice the quotes), well, regardless of what you can afford, you're in the wrong hobby."

Any thoughts?

Can you provide a link for the source of that quote? I would like to read it in the context of the article or review. While I have not yet spent that much on a component it would be within reach. Also Michael writes for a high end magazine so in that context it would seem affordable.

@ John - That review is in the current issue of Stereophile, so it's not online yet...

@ Roy - I don't think anyone in our hobby should be surprised by an amp costing $4,200... Even if you'd never pay more than $500 for an amp (regardless of what you can afford), $4,200 is not expensive by "audiophile" standards...

That's like being into wine tasting and being shocked by a $50 bottle of wine... Even if you only buy $5 wines, you know $50 isn't an expensive wine (by wine tasting standards)...

I doubt John was implying that you need to spend a lot to get good sound - one of his very favorite speakers is only $7,500 and while that too is expensive IMO it is not expensive by audiophile hobby standards.

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Originally Posted by RoyY51

Michael Fremer of Stereophile just wrote, in describing the Music Reference RM-200 Mk.11 power amplifier: "It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive" (notice the quotes), well, regardless of what you can afford, you're in the wrong hobby."

Any thoughts?

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As others have said, $4200 isn't expensive by high-end audiophile standards; so far Fremer is right.

However he steps over the line when he says "you're in the wrong hobby" if you can't or won't pop $4k on an amp. There plenty of opportunities to enjoy the hobby with much cheaper equipment. That is, ready-made equipment and DIY extends the choices even further. Great sound can be had for relatively low cost. For certain you can have a great sounding, complete system for under $4200. More $$ will get you better, but diminishing returns is in play. Value is in the eye of the beholder, of course.

Fremer's rather typical attitude PO's a lot of people about Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, and various other high-end mags. Whose egos are they stroking? Their snob readers? Or their own?

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Originally Posted by Ajani

@ John - That review is in the current issue of Stereophile, so it's not online yet...

@ Roy - I don't think anyone in our hobby should be surprised by an amp costing $4,200... Even if you'd never pay more than $500 for an amp (regardless of what you can afford), $4,200 is not expensive by "audiophile" standards...

That's like being into wine tasting and being shocked by a $50 bottle of wine... Even if you only buy $5 wines, you know $50 isn't an expensive wine (by wine tasting standards)...

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I'm not surprised by an amp that costs $4200. I AM surprised by the inference that, unless I'm willing to shell out thousands per component, I am "in the wrong hobby" and not worthy of a seat at the Adult Table. This would seem to be a great way to alienate an already declining readership, as well as discouraging the average listener from even trying to join the club.

Ooops - For some reason I mixed up Fremer with John Marks - If John Marks had said it I stand by my previous comments.

Michael Fremer is another matter entirely.

Like most people here I believed that spending huge sums of cash was the way to achieve the best sound. After building my own speakers I realized that this "best" sound could be had for pennies on the dollar with a little sweat equity. More importantly, this opened my mind to see things from the parts cost perspective.

There is no denying that some of this "very" expensive gear is very good, but most of it's cost is profit for the manufacturer and the middle man. That's understandable and these people need to live too.

We talk about snake oil and paying exorbitant amounts of money for advertising and "the name", but it's when you open the box and see what's inside, that's when you realize how much of what you've paid is pure profit.

The point is that people that design and sell this expensive gear do so because there is a market for people with high incomes who are willing to pay big bucks for a very small increment in sound or cosmetics.

When it comes to the most expensive gear on the market, snake oil is alive and well. They talk of new topologies and new circuitry that enhances the sound, but while they may be technically correct, does it mean that we can hear it?

Every year, most manufacturers come out with their new model line. The only reason they do this is to spur new sales. To me, this indicates that their previous model is flawed somehow and that makes me wonder what flaws their new models have. I can understand this change when it comes to digital circuitry when new formats or methods of data transmission has changed, but amplification and speaker technologies have changed very little over the years, except in the case of digital amplification which is relatively new.

I'm just jabbering, but in the end, this stuff that Stereophile pushes is way over priced for what you are getting. I've listened to a $20,000, Class "A" rated" amplifier that didn't sound as good as much lower priced amps (in the systems they were in).

The bottom line is that there is no set amount of money that determines the quality of audio you get for your dollar. To set a dollar amount on the cost of your gear is ludicrous.

I used to love Stereophile magazine, but quit my subscription when I realized that the products they were reviewing were only for the rich and famous and were more of a status symbol than a realistic increase in audio quality. I remember a CD player that went for $30,000. Back then, that was the price of a luxury car. Now come on, what justification can they make for that price?

Well, for what's it worth, that's my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

As others have said, $4200 isn't expensive by high-end audiophile standards; so far Fremer is right.

However he steps over the line when he says "you're in the wrong hobby" if you can't or won't pop $4k on an amp. There plenty of opportunities to enjoy the hobby with much cheaper equipment. That is, ready-made equipment and DIY extends the choices even further. Great sound can be had for relatively low cost. For certain you can have a great sounding, complete system for under $4200. More $$ will get you better, but diminishing returns is in play. Value is in the eye of the beholder, of course.

Fremer's rather typical attitude PO's a lot of people about Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, and various other high-end mags. Whose egos are they stroking? Their snob readers? Or their own?

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I couldn't agree more. We of the Joe Six-Pack persuasion already view most "audiophiles" as people with too much money and too little sense. To this, some will now be tempted to add: "elitist snobs"...if they don't already hold that opinion.

Good post Steven.

Fremer needs to attend DIY Atlanta. It might change his perception that money spent is related to high quality sound.

High End = High Income

Most of us dabble in Mid End and some at Entry Level High End. Very few on this board actually have High End systems. A $4K amp is nothing compared to the VAC top stereo amp at $39,900. High End Audio is for those who have the cash to blow, don't care that you can get similar cheaper and have no interest in DIY. They have MONEY. People with money do not shop at Wal-Mart or K-Mart even if they can get the same product cheaper because they don't want to admit you can.

Audio is no different than Watches, Cars, Suits, or anything you can think of. A $50 watch tells the same time as a $20k Rolex but a person with money won't be caught dead wearing the cheaper one.

I can remember when I was buying my Hafler gear back in the day. I would watch guys come into Soundex and drop $20k on a pc of gear. The next week they would be trading it in for $15k and buying something different for $30k.

Fremer's comment's don't really apply to most of us hear because A- we don't have that kind of cash, and B- we don't really have what they consider High End systems at Stereophile.

I stopped getting Stereophile many years ago for similar reasons. No real world gear reviewed and only cator to the people with big bucks to toss around.

I take no offense to the comments because they don't apply to me. My hobby is Audio, not High End Audio.

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Originally Posted by RoyY51

I'm not surprised by an amp that costs $4200. I AM surprised by the inference that, unless I'm willing to shell out thousands per component, I am "in the wrong hobby" and not worthy of a seat at the Adult Table. This would seem to be a great way to alienate an already declining readership, as well as discouraging the average listener from even trying to join the club.

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I see your point. But even then I'm not surprised...

Snobbery is a part of any hobby involving "luxury goods"... I was thinking about purchasing a Movado Museum Watch a few months ago and checked out a few reviews online, only to see the exact same kind of snobbery that's on audio sites - The Movado was being ripped for basically being "mass market"... If you buy a Honda Accord, the guys with BMW 5s will probably look down on you... On this forum I've had to file numerous complaints to the mods when a member sent me messages accusing me of being "poor and stupid" because I own an Emotiva XPA-2 amp (he owns a Mark Levinson, of course)... So snobbery is just standard in the hobby...

Snobbery is not going anywhere... So my belief is just to focus on getting the best equipment, for the amount you are willing to spend, and ignore the snobs...

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

High End = High Income

Most of us dabble in Mid End and some at Entry Level High End. Very few on this board actually have High End systems. A $4K amp is nothing compared to the VAC top stereo amp at $39,900. High End Audio is for those who have the cash to blow, don't care that you can get similar cheaper and have no interest in DIY. They have MONEY. People with money do not shop at Wal-Mart or K-Mart even if they can get the same product cheaper because they don't want to admit you can.

Audio is no different than Watches, Cars, Suits, or anything you can think of. A $50 watch tells the same time as a $20k Rolex but a person with money won't be caught dead wearing the cheaper one.

I can remember when I was buying my Hafler gear back in the day. I would watch guys come into Soundex and drop $20k on a pc of gear. The next week they would be trading it in for $15k and buying something different for $30k.

Fremer's comment's don't really apply to most of us hear because A- we don't have that kind of cash, and B- we don't really have what they consider High End systems at Stereophile.

I stopped getting Stereophile many years ago for similar reasons. No real world gear reviewed and only cator to the people with big bucks to toss around.

I take no offense to the comments because they don't apply to me. My hobby is Audio, not High End Audio.

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I like to refer to High End Audio as Luxury Audio... Yes there are improvements - some in sound, others just in build quality and cosmetics, but the price you pay is extreme - so only the individual can determine whether a product is "worth" the money...

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Originally Posted by Ajani

I like to refer to High End Audio as Luxury Audio... Yes there are improvements - some in sound, others just in build quality and cosmetics, but the price you pay is extreme - so only the individual can determine whether a product is "worth" the money...

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Correct. And in most cases, only those with the money to blow will label it Worth The Money. Personally, to me, a $40K amp is not 38 times better than a $2K amp. Better, for sure. Looks, for sure. Build quality, for sure but the sound will not be 38 times better so to someone that does not have cash falling out of their pockets, it will not be worth it. To those with money like Fremer, maybe to them it is, but they could really just be fooling themselves.

I read the letters to the editor every month from readers complaining that Stereophile covers too much high end gear. I figured it was mainly the readers with low end gear that were doing the complaining. Now it turns out that some of the posters here are of that opinion. I looked at Nov. Stereophile to see the prices of the reviewed gear. Here is the gear in a nut shell.

1. Amtrans Passive Controler $2950
2. Epos Epic 2 Speakers $ 695
3. Haniwa Phono Pre $5000
4. Kimber Tonik Cables $ 80
5. Nordost Flatline Cables $ 157
6. Energy Connoisseur $ 269
7. Emotiva Power Amp $ 899
8. Resolution Audio CD/DAC $6000
9. Simaudio CD Player $8000
10. Leben Int Amp $3395
11. Leben Phono Pre $2695
12. Luxman Int Amp $5990
13. Quad Int. Amp $5999

There are some lower priced items that would fit in all our budgets and some of the others that really sound interesting could be had in a year on Audiogon for much less. That's why I continue to read Stereophile. That and the fact that the guys at my HiFi shop read it while they're waiting for a customer and you guys that have worked in that business know what I mean. It gives us something to talk about when I stop by.

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Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington

I read the letters to the editor every month from readers complaining that Stereophile covers too much high end gear. I figured it was mainly the readers with low end gear that were doing the complaining. Now it turns out that some of the posters here are of that opinion. I looked at Nov. Stereophile to see the prices of the reviewed gear. Here is the gear in a nut shell.

1. Amtrans Passive Controler $2950
2. Epos Epic 2 Speakers $ 695
3. Haniwa Phono Pre $5000
4. Kimber Tonik Cables $ 80
5. Nordost Flatline Cables $ 157
6. Energy Connoisseur $ 269
7. Emotiva Power Amp $ 899
8. Resolution Audio CD/DAC $6000
9. Simaudio CD Player $8000
10. Leben Int Amp $3395
11. Leben Phono Pre $2695
12. Luxman Int Amp $5990
13. Quad Int. Amp $5999

There are some lower priced items that would fit in all our budgets and some of the others that really sound interesting could be had in a year on Audiogon for much less. That's why I continue to read Stereophile. That and the fact that the guys at my HiFi shop read it while they're waiting for a customer and you guys that have worked in that business know what I mean. It gives us something to talk about when I stop by.

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You do need to keep in mind that Stereophile has made a far more conscious effort in recent years to review more "affordable" gear... A few years back, the trend towards reviewing the luxurious and exotic was really spiraling out of control... Even the decision to have Stephen Mejas review inexpensive gear was likely part of the strategy to bring things back under control.

Conclusions
Those who complain of the ever-increasing prices of high-performance audio gear need only look at the Music Reference RM-200 Mk.II. It provides high performance, high build quality, high reliability and I'm sure, great measurements-all at a low price, considering how much honest musical enjoyment it makes possible. And it's made in America.

It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive," well regardless of what you can afford, You're in the wrong hobby. It has no blue LEDs, but you can't have everything.



Reading the conclusion I did not have the same reaction. I am curious what others think when they read the conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Ajani

You do need to keep in mind that Stereophile has made a far more conscious effort in recent years to review more "affordable" gear... A few years back, the trend towards reviewing the luxurious and exotic was really spiraling out of control... Even the decision to have Stephen Mejas review inexpensive gear was likely part of the strategy to bring things back under control.

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Oh Yea and I appreciate it. I really enjoy Stephen column. It has a little bit of human interest mixed with his review.

I use the term DIY losely to include those small one man cottage industry types who hand build their products in basements and garages not for just a side income but for the sheer joy of their craft. Their products are rarely reviewed in audiophile publications and such individuals are far from the mainstream of high end audio yet their products are of the highest order. My friend in Hendersonville, NC builds the mighty GM70 which sells for $35,000 and he's probably lucky to build and sell one a year. I know he's sold a few to oil sheiks. What customers get with the GM70 is a DIY ugly as a mud fence, 3 chassis ungainly amp that dims your lights while reproducing the "Voice of God".

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Conclusions
Those who complain of the ever-increasing prices of high-performance audio gear need only look at the Music Reference RM-200 Mk.II. It provides high performance, high build quality, high reliability and I'm sure, great measurements-all at a low price, considering how much honest musical enjoyment it makes possible. And it's made in America.

It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive," well regardless of what you can afford, You're in the wrong hobby. It has no blue LEDs, but you can't have everything.



Reading the conclusion I did not have the same reaction. I am curious what others think when they read the conclusion.

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My conclusion is still the same: if Michael Fremer thinks that I'm "in the wrong hobby" because I can't or won't spend $4200 on a single component, then he's not living in the same world as most of us.

If someone more technologically oriented than I were to post a poll asking if $4200 was an "expensive" amount to spend on one component, I think my assumption would be verified.

I am quoting MF again "When the RM-200 was in the system, I wanted for nothing-and for $4,200, that's something.

In our hobby with some amps costing over $100,000 and he found a $4,200 amp satisfying. Compared to Ultra High End that amp is not expensive. I think it was a backhanded comment that if an audiophile thinks an amp of that quality is expensive wait until they hear the price of the top range amps.

Everyone has their panties in a knot but I didn't feel he was taking a personal jab at anyone. It was simply an expression to get a point across. The double entendre is unintentional and makes me think that people are biased about Fremer before he even opens his yap. I am not defending him, but in this case I think he meant no harm.

Find another hobby...I think he was trying to say, you must accept reality that great audio costs a lot, and generally much more than 5k.

I am with Poultry on this one...full range horns anyone?

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

I am quoting MF again "When the RM-200 was in the system, I wanted for nothing-and for $4,200, that's something.

In our hobby with some amps costing over $100,000 and he found a $4,200 amp satisfying. Compared to Ultra High End that amp is not expensive. I think it was a backhanded comment that if an audiophile thinks an amp of that quality is expensive wait until they hear the price of the top range amps.

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For $4200 he SHOULD have found it satisfying. In my world, it should also wash my car, do my laundry and mow my yard. I do, however, understand the point that you are making.

But he's still an idiot for saying what he did.

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Originally Posted by poppachubby

...
Find another hobby...I think he was trying to say, you must accept reality that great audio costs a lot, and generally much more than 5k.
...

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Ah, come on, Chubbs. He said what he said. He either meant it or he shouldn't have said it. Personally I think he meant it, in which case it shows a contempt for people like most of us here.

The problem with this discussion is that none of us really know what Fremer was trying to say... Perhaps his words came out wrong or maybe he meant it to be an insult... Based on Fremer's very vocal stance on all things HiFi it could be either... Best bet might be to ask on the Stereophile forums and see if Fremer responds...

But frankly, I don't think it really matters... Fremer is just one reviewer at the mag...

I'm one that doesn't think that $4200 is expensive for an amp. Sorry Roy, but in the world were there are $100,000 amps, I'm with JM on this one. I think you're just reading too much into what MF said. I'll bet there are some members on this board that have spent more than $4200 on their amps or would have if they had bought them new. If I had the money, $4200 would not be out of the question for the right amp. $100,000 would.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Ah, come on, Chubbs. He said what he said. He either meant it or he shouldn't have said it. Personally I think he meant it, in which case it shows a contempt for people like most of us here.

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Thank you, Feanor...I was beginning to think that I was the only one on this forum who understood the implications of Fremer's comment.

If I didn't have to "spread the points around" I would be sending a greenie your way!

Hello guys,

4200$ is a lot of money, and therefore a lot for an amplifier. Its a lot of money for almost anything.

One aspect which is very often forgotten are the service costs of hifi gear. Buying a old amplifier which used to cost 50K for lets say 16k seems like a good deal to some. But one day you need to have it restored (caps, some resistors, bias settings, load balancing etc...) which is very expensive. I am a prime example, i had my four Krell KRS200 monos serviced just 5 weeks ago for 6115$

So in my opinion its a relative, if you want to and can afford it then do it. 4500$ is not much for an amp if you really want it.

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Originally Posted by Ajani

The problem with this discussion is that none of us really know what Fremer was trying to say... Perhaps his words came out wrong or maybe he meant it to be an insult... Based on Fremer's very vocal stance on all things HiFi it could be either... Best bet might be to ask on the Stereophile forums and see if Fremer responds...

But frankly, I don't think it really matters... Fremer is just one reviewer at the mag...

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Hooey: writers at 'Phile and TAS say all the time what a bargain, and how "affordable" this or that $5k component is. They believe this. Fremer just stated it a little more candidly than usual: If you can't afford spend $4000 on a component, then FO.

Florian: if my wife, daughter, and I gave up eatting for six months, why yes, I could bUy myself a $4200 amp; (otherwise not).

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Conclusions
Those who complain of the ever-increasing prices of high-performance audio gear need only look at the Music Reference RM-200 Mk.II. It provides high performance, high build quality, high reliability and I'm sure, great measurements-all at a low price, considering how much honest musical enjoyment it makes possible. And it's made in America.

It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive," well regardless of what you can afford, You're in the wrong hobby. It has no blue LEDs, but you can't have everything.

Reading the conclusion I did not have the same reaction. I am curious what others think when they read the conclusion.

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What?!? My Class D Audio SDS-258 sounds great, is well made in American, cost <$600 -- and damn! it has blue LEDs and amber ones too. (BTW, adding the LEDs in my build cost me about $2.)

Hi Bill, in this case it is not wise for you to buy an amplifier in that price category. My girlfriend and i have no kids and besides the house and cars no fix payments. Like i said it depends on the situation and if you want it or not. I dont think that this audio hobby (in that price category) should be for everyone, its like any other interest. It depends on your situation and interest.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Florian

Hi Bill, in this case it is not wise for you to buy an amplifier in that price category. My girlfriend and i have no kids and besides the house and cars no fix payments. Like i said it depends on the situation and if you want it or not. I dont think that this audio hobby (in that price category) should be for everyone, its like any other interest. It depends on your situation and interest.

Cheers

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Thanks, Flo. You are both perceptive and sympathetic.

If only Fremer had added the "in that price category" qualification, we wouldn't be discussing it.

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Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington

I'm one that doesn't think that $4200 is expensive for an amp. Sorry Roy, but in the world were there are $100,000 amps, I'm with JM on this one. I think you're just reading too much into what MF said. I'll bet there are some members on this board that have spent more than $4200 on their amps or would have if they had bought them new. If I had the money, $4200 would not be out of the question for the right amp. $100,000 would.

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I am also with you, Jack. Although my current setup includes components that cost close to $4500 each, pre, amp, speakers, and another $2k in cables, I did not pay that much for them. I can say that the performance is very good compared to most $1k items.

I guess if I chose to use some of my retirement money, I could actually buy higher price gear. I choose not to.

My $1200 Stratos sounds real good and does compete with a lot of higher priced SS amps, but the Counterpoint is way more refined, detailed and more. The CP fell into my hands long after I bought the Stratos.

I did choose to spend $2500 13 years ago for a pair of Dynaudio speakers. That was a lot of money for my budget but I always wanted a pair, knew the performance and sound well, and knew I would get many years of pleasure out of them.

If I had to do it all over again or downsize, I would probably focus in on an integrated in the $5K range for all the same reasons I like the Counterpoint and VAC more than the Stratos and my olde long gone Sound Valves pre.

Like Jack said, in a realm of 100k amps, 180k speakers, 20k DACs or CDPlayers, let alone the cabling suggested for these types of components, $4200 for 20 years of glorious music in ones home is not over the top.

Has everyone saying it is actually sat down and listenedd to some real High End systems for any length of time?

Like I said in my first response, maybe the gear is not 50x better, but if you're a millionaire you would do it just to say you did.

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Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington

Oh Yea and I appreciate it. I really enjoy Stephen column. It has a little bit of human interest mixed with his review.

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Jack, I think I was at your shop back in the 90's. Did you have a pair of Avalon (I think) for about $70,000 running on spectral gear? Did you also carry Joesph Audio speakers? Wilmington Delaware?

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

I am quoting MF again "When the RM-200 was in the system, I wanted for nothing-and for $4,200, that's something.

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$4,200 is doable if it really is as good as he says. I've spent about that much before, and while the amp was good, there was no magic in my system, no synergy I suppose.

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Originally Posted by poppachubby

Everyone has their panties in a knot but I didn't feel he was taking a personal jab at anyone. It was simply an expression to get a point across.

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No doubt! I didn't take offense at him. My posts were aimed more at the high cost high end where, for the average person, the prices are way out of context with what you get for your money. If I had a great deal of disposable cash, the bling inherent in high priced gear would be acceptable. You know, we could be discussing cars, or even homes. I've seen people spend $40,000 on a car that is only slightly better (in some ways) than a $20,000 car and think the extra $20,000 is justified, but would think spending $10,000 on an audio system is purely a waste of money.

I have to tell you that I loved Stereophile magazine and I think it's a great mag. Every month it came, I dropped everything I was doing and read it from cover to cover, including all the ads. In fact, that is how I found all the stores that I visited. It was a dream catalog and who doesn't like to dream?

I will add this... Stereophile is a glamour magazine and and as such cannot be taken seriously by mortal men. There is no point for the average person to read it as a guide toward their quest of audio nirvana. As for thinking they are uppity about their craft, it matters not, because it's an illusion that they peddle, nothing less and nothing more.
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As for Fremers comment, "If that's your idea of "expensive" , well, regardless of what you can afford, you're in the wrong hobby."...

I'm not sure what he was implying, but I think what he is saying is that it is too good to pass up. He just used a poor choice of words. I'm an optimist...

I believe most people on this forum would classify Meridian speakers as high end. My son-in-law owns a pair with built in amp and a Meridian cd player that cost around $30k new. I'd bet money that any member here who heard the Meridians compared to my home brew OBs and Bottlehead kit amp would say my set up sounds way better. Folks it's really not even close. So if my $1,000 DIY system stomps a $30,000 system then the 30k system is not really high end afterall or just maybe my cheapo gear is high end as well. But my point is that cost alone is not the deciding factor that defines high end.

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

But my point is that cost alone is not the deciding factor that defines high end.

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Unfortunately for this hobby, and for a lot of people with money, it is.

That said, everyone in this thread knows that you can get very good performance for a lot less.

I don't care how much R&D goes into a $180K pair of speakers, they will not sound 179x better than a $1k pair. Better, most likely but in no way worth the cost, unless you have it to blow and just want them.

I guess the big problem is that mags like Stereophile have skewed the playing field because although they have favorably reviewed some lesser costing gear as of late, they still cater to outrageously priced items that do not exponentially perform better than lesser costing gear.

Sometimes I read the articles, even if the component that the article is about is something that I'm not interested in purchasing, just to see what associated music the reviewer used. I also like to read a review that may not get a glowing recommendation, just to read the manufacturers comments in the back. Especially if it's Roy Hall.

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

I believe most people on this forum would classify Meridian speakers as high end. My son-in-law owns a pair with built in amp and a Meridian cd player that cost around $30k new. I'd bet money that any member here who heard the Meridians compared to my home brew OBs and Bottlehead kit amp would say my set up sounds way better. Folks it's really not even close. So if my $1,000 DIY system stomps a $30,000 system then the 30k system is not really high end afterall or just maybe my cheapo gear is high end as well. But my point is that cost alone is not the deciding factor that defines high end.

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High end is a subjective term and there is no clear distinction that classifies the different levels of audio. I have a metric that serves me well, and that is, if I hear a system and I immediately focus on the performance being presented, while at the same time, I am consciously unaware of the gear producing it, that to me is high end. Cost or brand is not an issue.

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Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington

Sometimes I read the articles, even if the component that the article is about is something that I'm not interested in purchasing, just to see what associated music the reviewer used. I also like to read a review that may not get a glowing recommendation, just to read the manufacturers comments in the back. Especially if it's Roy Hall.

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The whole 10 years I read Stereophile I may have seen 1 or 2 disks used that I actually own. For the majority, they never seemed to use any genre that I listen to.

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

I believe most people on this forum would classify Meridian speakers as high end. My son-in-law owns a pair with built in amp and a Meridian cd player that cost around $30k new. I'd bet money that any member here who heard the Meridians compared to my home brew OBs and Bottlehead kit amp would say my set up sounds way better. Folks it's really not even close. So if my $1,000 DIY system stomps a $30,000 system then the 30k system is not really high end afterall or just maybe my cheapo gear is high end as well. But my point is that cost alone is not the deciding factor that defines high end.

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Yep, there are a couple of things here.

First, can you be into the audiophile hobbly on the cheap, (i.e. <$4k per component)? Hell, yes.

Second, do less expensive systems, (i.e. components <$4k), beat much more expensive systems? Hell, yes. As for you specific example, your OB/Bottlehead vs. Meridians, I don't know since I've heard neither.

Stereophile, Absolute Sound, and a few other aspirants have become Robb Reports targeting the audiophile subniche of luxury goods. With that insight we can better understand the carelessly contemptuous attitude their writes have towards the majority of sound enthusiasts.