An elitest's viewpoint.

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Originally Posted by E-Stat

Since your $2300 Monarchy amps were presumably "not expensive" and the $4200 RMs are "expensive", where do you find the tipping point?

Do you find that $2300 for a stereo power amplifier represents the median investment for the 99% of the audio buying public?

rw

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Not likely, but then (a) I personally considered the $2300 expensive, and (b) depite the official MSRP, I actually paid $1176, the price for which you can buy them today ... High End at Low Cost. Enter the audiophile world for pennies on the dollar.

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Originally Posted by E-Stat

Not at all. I merely presume you are aware of the many $50k and above amplifiers on the market. Similarly, my wife's Honda S2000 costs one-tenth that of a Ferrari with not too terribly different performance. I suspect that some folks would consider the Honda expensive, but in context to the market, I think most would agree that it is not.

rw

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I disagree with the premise. And its not a bad thing to disagree...but my point is, one can't make statements like the one made by saying one" is in the wrong hobby"...that's ill spoken in the context of our hobby..... "expensive" is subjective....and yet some may still purchase regardless of what one will say is expensive. What I think about a thing or item does not necessarily make one in the wrong activity.

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Originally Posted by Ajani

IMO, that is the key point: "Context"... In absolute terms a $4K amp can certainly be considered expensive (that's more than many persons after tax pay for the month... and not everyone can afford to spend an entire month's salary on a non-necessity)... However, in the context of the HiFi market, a $4K amp can be seen as being cheap (especially if it performs on par with $14K amps - considering the price of the amps Fremer uses; for him to be so satisfied with a $4K amp says a lot about its performance)....

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So if one think its not cheap but expensive, would you say that person is in the wrong hobby?

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

So if one think its not cheap but expensive, would you say that person is in the wrong hobby?

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The issue remains context...

In absolute terms a Hyundai Accent is expensive... How many persons have the money to buy an Accent, sitting in a savings a/c? But to say that a Hyundai Accent is an expensive car, really shows a lack of understanding of the car market...

Likewise, in the context of prices of amps of similar quality, I'd say that they don't seem to know much about the hobby...

If they can show that there are amps of the same quality for less money, then I can see a case for claiming that $4K is expensive... Otherwise the claim of it being expensive is out of context and IMO, meaningless...

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Originally Posted by Ajani

The issue remains context...

In absolute terms a Hyundai Accent is expensive... How many persons have the money to buy an Accent sitting in a savings a/c? But to say that a Hyundai Accent is an expensive car, really shows a lack of understanding of the car market...

Likewise, in the context of prices of amps of similar quality, I'd say that they don't seem to know much about the hobby...

If they can show that there are amps of the same quality for less money, then I can see a case for claiming that $4K is expensive... Otherwise the claim of it being expensive is out of context and IMO, meaningless...

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I very well understand your point Ajani...but the question is do you think they are in the wrong hobby?

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

I very well understand your point Ajani...but the question is do you think they are in the wrong hobby?

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If someone doesn't bother to know enough about their own hobby, are they in the right hobby?

But let's address your question:

It seems to me that your question is whether I would have phrased Fremer's point in those exact words - The answer is no... I'm not Fremer.

I can say that a point someone made is incorrect or I can say that it is ridiculous. Both mean the point is wrong, but one has a negative connotation.. So I wouldn't have phrased it the way Fremer did as I'd have probably opted for something more diplomatic, but I still agree with his point...

IMO, Fremer's argument is that in the context of HiFi this amp is not expensive (based on performance)...

There are two ways to combat his claim:

1) $4K is expensive in general.

2) There are amps equaling that performance for less than $4K.

RE:

1) Who cares? There's no HiFi context to that claim and hence it's irrelevant.

2) Is a valid argument.

So anybody in this hobby should be arguing point 2) if they wish to disagree with Fremer... If their only argument is point 1) then why are they in hobby? From my previous post if you claim a Hyundai Accent is expensive then why would you be a car enthusiast?

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Originally Posted by Ajani

If someone doesn't bother to know enough about their own hobby, are they in the right hobby?

But let's address your question:

It seems to me that your question is whether I would have phrased Fremer's point in those exact words - The answer is no... I'm not Fremer.

I can say that a point someone made is incorrect or I can say that it is ridiculous. Both mean the point is wrong, but one has a negative connotation.. So I wouldn't have phrased it the way Fremer did as I'd have probably opted for something more diplomatic, but I still agree with his point...

IMO, Fremer's argument is that in the context of HiFi this amp is not expensive (based on performance)...

There are two ways to combat his claim:

1) $4K is expensive in general.

2) There are amps equaling that performance for less than $4K.

RE:

1) Who cares? There's no HiFi context to that claim and hence it's irrelevant.

2) Is a valid argument.

So anybody in this hobby should be arguing point 2) if they wish to disagree with Fremer... If their only argument is point 1) then why are they in hobby? From my previous post if you claim a Hyundai Accent is expensive then why would you be a car enthusiast?

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In the grand scheme of audio...no the amp is not expensive at all. Fremer was being facetious with his comment poor as it was...but some, as we have seen will take him for a snobb at best as he looks down on others with the comment. In a real world its judgmental and wrong....expense is subjective.

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If someone doesn't bother to know enough about their own hobby, are they in the right hobby?

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Possibly yes...because we all where novice at one point or another...and there are several factors of why we want to know certain things over other things with in that certain hobby.

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

In the grand scheme of audio...no the amp is not expensive at all. Fremer was being facetious with his comment poor as it was...but some, as we have seen will take him for a snobb at best as he looks down on others with the comment. In a real world its judgmental and wrong....expense is subjective.

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Clearly Fremer's comment was meant to be provocative... But I still don't think it's the big deal that some posters in this thread regard it is...

Had he said that; if you are unwilling or unable to afford a $4K amp then you're in the wrong hobby, then I would agree that such a statement is over the top and offensive...

As for being judgmental: EVERYONE of us is, in both everyday life and especially this hobby... When we talk about how bad someone's favourite brand sounds compared to the brands we own / like, we are being highly judgmental. Listening preference is subjective...

So why are we so hellbent on chastising Fremer for being judgmental, in between our own bouts of being just as judgmental as he is?

It is true that some people have more money than the rest of us, and that some people have A LOT more money than the rest of us. Also some people can afford $4000 amps and even $40,000 amps, or whatever.......

Your communal mistake here is in assuming that all of these people are in the same group.

Entertainers and movie stars are famous for their pricy purchases, but these people also often die poor. Michael Jackson made a ton of money and he spent a ton of money, and he died with a negative $400 million net worth.

My daughter was negotiating a buy-sell agreement for joining a very successful 62 year old doctor's practice. That doctor claimed he was going to retire at 65 which would then make my daughter the senior doctor, but my daughter somehow learned that the good 62 year old doctor had saved only $500,000 for his retirement. She broke off the negotiation because she felt that given the good doctor's expensive house and expensive cars plus the lavish vacations he took with his wife, $500,000 was simply insufficient for supporting their lifestyle in retirement.

So I would simply let this entire matter blow off to obscurity…………………………..

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Originally Posted by Mash

....
My daughter was negotiating a buy-sell agreement for joining a very successful 62 year old doctor's practice. That doctor claimed he was going to retire at 65 which would then make my daughter the senior doctor, but my daughter somehow learned that the good 62 year old doctor had saved only $500,000 for his retirement. She broke off the negotiation because she felt that given the good doctor's expensive house and expensive cars plus the lavish vacations he took with his wife, $500,000 was simply insufficient for supporting their lifestyle in retirement.

So I would simply let this entire matter blow off to obscurity…………………………..

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Said doctor is either an ass or not nearly as successful as we supposed.

Very likely, after all, Fremer tossed off the remark casually with giving it much thought. It is true, after all, that in his world $50,000 amps are fairly common. He ought to have given it more though, of course.

as it is importrant how much money STICKS TO your hands. The referenced practice was successful as the financials would demonstrate but how much good does that do if most of what flows in also flows out?

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Originally Posted by Mash

as it is importrant how much money STICKS TO your hands. The referenced practice was successful as the financials would demonstrate but how much good does that do if most of what flows in also flows out?

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I often tell my students that I regard expenses as being more important than income... If I doubled my salary tomorrow I could immediately find ways to waste the entire increase.... The trick is to keep your expenses down... Then even a relatively pitiful income could accumulate to something worthwhile...

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Originally Posted by Ajani

Clearly Fremer's comment was meant to be provocative... But I still don't think it's the big deal that some posters in this thread regard it is...

Had he said that; if you are unwilling or unable to afford a $4K amp then you're in the wrong hobby, then I would agree that such a statement is over the top and offensive...

As for being judgmental: EVERYONE of us is, in both everyday life and especially this hobby... When we talk about how bad someone's favourite brand sounds compared to the brands we own / like, we are being highly judgmental. Listening preference is subjective...

So why are we so hellbent on chastising Fremer for being judgmental, in between our own bouts of being just as judgmental as he is?

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hmmmm....good points on judgmental-ism, I've had my share of it.

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Originally Posted by Mash

It is true that some people have more money than the rest of us, and that some people have A LOT more money than the rest of us. Also some people can afford $4000 amps and even $40,000 amps, or whatever.......

Your communal mistake here is in assuming that all of these people are in the same group.

Entertainers and movie stars are famous for their pricy purchases, but these people also often die poor. Michael Jackson made a ton of money and he spent a ton of money, and he died with a negative $400 million net worth.

My daughter was negotiating a buy-sell agreement for joining a very successful 62 year old doctor's practice. That doctor claimed he was going to retire at 65 which would then make my daughter the senior doctor, but my daughter somehow learned that the good 62 year old doctor had saved only $500,000 for his retirement. She broke off the negotiation because she felt that given the good doctor's expensive house and expensive cars plus the lavish vacations he took with his wife, $500,000 was simply insufficient for supporting their lifestyle in retirement.

Why all the hurt feelings?.....So I would simply let this entire matter blow off to obscurity…………………………..

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I can't speak for others but my feeling certainly where not hurt....I just think he does not care about selling magazines. Just so you'd know, I enjoy the magazine and will continue to buy it.

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Originally Posted by Ajani

I often tell my students that I regard expenses as being more important than income... If I doubled my salary tomorrow I could immediately find ways to waste the entire increase.... The trick is to keep your expenses down... Then even a relatively pitiful income could accumulate to something worthwhile...

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Very good advice, but for many that lesson is learned through experience.

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Originally Posted by Ajani

The issue remains context...

In absolute terms a Hyundai Accent is expensive... How many persons have the money to buy an Accent, sitting in a savings a/c? But to say that a Hyundai Accent is an expensive car, really shows a lack of understanding of the car market...

Likewise, in the context of prices of amps of similar quality, I'd say that they don't seem to know much about the hobby...

If they can show that there are amps of the same quality for less money, then I can see a case for claiming that $4K is expensive... Otherwise the claim of it being expensive is out of context and IMO, meaningless...

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Lets use the car analogy:

There are, indeed, many cars on the road that are more expensive than the Hyundia Accent, and given the performance of the Accent it is a great lower-cost alternative to the higher priced vehicles. But what if I can't even afford the Accent? What if I could only afford a used Ford Focus?

Would Mr. Fremer tell me that I shouldn't be driving at all?

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Originally Posted by RoyY51

Lets use the car analogy:

There are, indeed, many cars on the road that are more expensive than the Hyundia Accent, and given the performance of the Accent it is a great lower-cost alternative to the higher priced vehicles. But what if I can't even afford the Accent? What if I could only afford a used Ford Focus?

Would Mr. Fremer tell me that I shouldn't be driving at all?

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No he wouldn't... In the context of his argument he'd say you shouldn't be driving if you regard the Accent as expensive for what it offers... His argument is not whether you can afford or are willing to buy an Accent...

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Originally Posted by Ajani

No he wouldn't... In the context of his argument he'd say you shouldn't be driving if you regard the Accent as expensive for what it offers... His argument is not whether you can afford or are willing to buy an Accent...

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Whether or not I regard the Accent as expensive is immaterial. Anyone who tells me that I shouldn't be on the road, based on anything but my driving ability, is a putz.

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Originally Posted by RoyY51

Whether or not I regard the Accent as expensive is immaterial. Anyone who tells me that I shouldn't be on the road, based on anything but my driving ability, is a putz.

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Fair enough...

"we ought to try harder to understand the POV of the 1%ers"

fean,

it is not the 1%ers who buy themselves the comfort food of a 4200 dollar tube amp. they buy the constellation equipment recently evaluated by tas.

some of us will scrimp and sacrifice other items such as land rovers or even volvos (which are for some, a safety purchase) to indulge our love of the sound of music produced in our homes.

the music reference products actually represent a good value in terms of sound quality.

it is easy to see that kind of money going towards live performances around town (especially in LA or NY) if you want to take your sig other. classical music perfs can be costly and broadway shows or vegas productions like cirq de soleil of LOVE (with the very best sound i have ever heard in public) but worth every cent.

reproducing items like santana's abraxas or holst's the planets suite by zubin mehta/LA Philharmonic with the 4200 buck tube amp with appropriate speakers etc can be nearly equally rewarding.

so can a phase linear 700 pushing stacked advents playing stanley clarke's silly putty cut from the album 'journey to love'.

4200 (for the amp alone) isnt reasonable for a beginner but for a seasoned music lover it is a logical goal. a hundred watts of excellent tube power can be glorious.

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Originally Posted by RoyY51

Whether or not I regard the Accent as expensive is immaterial. Anyone who tells me that I shouldn't be on the road, based on anything but my driving ability, is a putz.

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While I do think he was out of place for making that ill remark....and while I think you and Ajani both have two very good arguments, they are not from the same perspective thus you two will never see eye to eye.

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

While I do think he was out of place for making that ill remark....and while I think you and Ajani both have two very good arguments, they are not from the same perspective thus you two will never see eye to eye.

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Actually, I have no issue with Roy's last point.

It seems to me he's saying that:

"just because someone doesn't understand what is considered expensive in the context of HiFi, is not a reason to say they shouldn't be in the hobby."

So perhaps Fremer's point should have been:

"if you think that's expensive, then you have a lot to learn about HiFi."

Of course even with such a word change, I'm sure there are still persons who would be offended... + I still think we're making far too much of Fremer's comments...

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Originally Posted by hifitommy

"we ought to try harder to understand the POV of the 1%ers"

fean,

it is not the 1%ers who buy themselves the comfort food of a 4200 dollar tube amp. they buy the constellation equipment recently evaluated by tas.

some of us will scrimp and sacrifice other items such as land rovers or even volvos (which are for some, a safety purchase) to indulge our love of the sound of music produced in our homes.

the music reference products actually represent a good value in terms of sound quality.

...

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Right your are, HFT.

Actually I've been downsizing lately. I sold my Monarchy amps, nominally $2300, my Sonic Frontiers preamp, MSRP $3500, and an Assemblage DAC, >$400; (all three actually purchased for much less). I replaced the former with a <$600 Class D Audio SDS-258 and SF with a Jolida passive preamp, MSRP $265, and the Assemblage with a <$90 Chinese DAC from eBay . In fact I think the latter combo sounds better to me: more transparent, more accurate instrument timbres.

Back in the day when I got started in hi-fi that hobby was supposedly about just that: accurate reproduction. Today euphonics and then infinite variety of personal preferences has taken over from actual high fidelity.

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Originally Posted by Ajani

Actually, I have no issue with Roy's last point.

It seems to me he's saying that:

"just because someone doesn't understand what is considered expensive in the context of HiFi, is not a reason to say they shouldn't be in the hobby."

So perhaps Fremer's point should have been:

"if you think that's expensive, then you have a lot to learn about HiFi."

Of course even with such a word change, I'm sure there are still persons who would be offended... + I still think we're making far too much of Fremer's comments...

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Yeah...perhaps.