An elitest's viewpoint.

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Originally Posted by hifitommy

...stereophile and tas arent snobs, they are hipping us to the best and also the affordable. just as car and driver tells us about lotuses and the like.

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true, but Fremer went further than that. his comment falls outside the bounds of civility and mutual respect.

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Originally Posted by dingus

true, but Fremer went further than that. his comment falls outside the bounds of civility and mutual respect.

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Yeah and that is the point of view that some of us have been arguing. I'm not going to say what he said was nice or even smart even if he may have been facetious, he could have been simply lashing out at the many who complain about the high priced gear every month that they cant afford. But still, for those who where offended, they may never buy the magazine again....hmmmm, I wonder if they (Stereophile) even care?

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

Yeah and that is the point of view that some of us have been arguing. I'm not going to say what he said was nice or even smart even if he may have been facetious, he could have been simply lashing out at the many who complain about the high priced gear every month that they cant afford. But still, for those who where offended, they may never buy the magazine again....hmmmm, I wonder if they (Stereophile) even care?

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I think a good question is how many persons who actually buy Stereophile were offended by the comment... John Atkinson has said for several years that the average Stereophile reader has around $15,000 invested in his system.

BTW, I raised the issue on the Stereophile forums. You can see JA's response here (the 8th post):

On stands, not on Zinio | Stereophile.com

i think mikey was inferring that any serious audiophile would realize prices range much higher than 4200 for a 100wpc tube amp. i seriously doubt that he was being elitist about it.

it seems many people are poised and ready to be offended.

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Originally Posted by Ajani

I think a good question is how many persons who actually buy Stereophile were offended by the comment... John Atkinson has said for several years that the average Stereophile reader has around $15,000 invested in his system.

BTW, I raised the issue on the Stereophile forums. You can see JA's response here (the 8th post):

On stands, not on Zinio | Stereophile.com

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So if your system isn't in the $15k range you're not of much interest to Stereophile -- no real surprise.

For my part, I never disagreed that $4 isn't expensive in absolute terms, but I reserve the right (1) consider it expensive in personal terms, and (2) at the same time, participate in the audiophile hobby.

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Originally Posted by Ajani

I think a good question is how many persons who actually buy Stereophile were offended by the comment... John Atkinson has said for several years that the average Stereophile reader has around $15,000 invested in his system.

BTW, I raised the issue on the Stereophile forums. You can see JA's response here (the 8th post):

On stands, not on Zinio | Stereophile.com

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See my response to JA, post #9 ...

On stands, not on Zinio | Stereophile.com

Feanor....good for you...you get greenies....


Edit:....well I tried, but I guess I don't spread them around enough.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

So if your system isn't in the $15k range you're not of much interest to Stereophile -- no real surprise.

For my part, I never disagreed that $4 isn't expensive in absolute terms, but I reserve the right (1) consider it expensive in personal terms, and (2) at the same time, participate in the audiophile hobby.

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Fremer is not talking about whether $4K is expensive in terms of your personal budget. So there's no reason to be offended if you find $4K personally expensive.

also, I find it somewhat weird that so far no one (ASFAIK) has disagreed with Fremer's point that in the context of HiFi $4K isn't expensive, yet so many persons are offended by the comment.

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Originally Posted by hifitommy

i think mikey was inferring that any serious audiophile would realize prices range much higher than 4200 for a 100wpc tube amp. i seriously doubt that he was being elitist about it.

it seems many people are poised and ready to be offended.

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.....

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Originally Posted by Ajani

Fremer is not talking about whether $4K is expensive in terms of your personal budget. So there's no reason to be offended if you find $4K personally expensive.

also, I find it somewhat weird that so far no one (ASFAIK) has disagreed with Fremer's point that in the context of HiFi $4K isn't expensive, yet so many persons are offended by the comment.

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thats out of touch with the real world. the "high-end" of hifi is a niche market at best. when compared to audio hardware as a whole, a $4000 component is expensive regardless of ones personal financial status.

for me, and i'm guessing its the same for the vast majority of folks in this hobby, that $4000 amp is quite spendy. i'm not offended because of that, but i do take offense that by Fremers standards, i cant play in his realm based on my views of component pricing.

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Originally Posted by dingus

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thats out of touch with the real world. the "high-end" of hifi is a niche market at best. when compared to audio hardware as a whole, a $4000 component is expensive regardless of ones personal financial status.

for me, and i'm guessing its the same for the vast majority of folks in this hobby, that $4000 amp is quite spendy. i'm not offended because of that, but i do take offense that by Fremers standards, i cant play in his realm based on my views of component pricing.

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Context - Clearly the discussion of HiFi is about High-End (our hobby) not consumer electronics in general. So $4K is not expensive in High End.

So while I see all the reasons persons can find to be offended by the comment, it seems to me that people have taken offense to Fremer's exclusion of persons with a hypothetical stance that no-one so far claims to hold...

If persons really believe that $4K is expensive in the context of High End, then I would get them being offended, but since (ASFAIK) no-one disputes Fremer's claim, then I see no reason to be offended...

the proliferation of products listing in excess of the said $4k level is staggering. someone out there other than the manufacturers believes that those products are worth the money to get the higly refined sonic results they are looking for. and yes, the differences are real. the zesto phono stage recently exhibited at the shows like newport and RMAF is $4k so that much for a tubed power amp of 100wpc doesnt seem so high in comparison.

those more fortunate than most of us are willing to part with their cash for items that give them comfort.

it seems unconscionable to most of us but if we were to be able to reach for that level, we just might.

there are attendees of our meetings at the LA/OC Audio Society (http://www.laocaudiosociety.net/) that arrive in bentley automobiles so 4k is likely pocket change for them.

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]Those who complain of the ever-increasing prices of high-performance audio gear need only look at the Music Reference RM-200 Mk.II. It provides high performance, high build quality, high reliability and I'm sure, great measurements-all at a low price, considering how much honest musical enjoyment it makes possible. And it's made in America.

It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive," well regardless of what you can afford, You're in the wrong hobby. It has no blue LEDs, but you can't have everything.

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After looking at this quote in context....its a shot at those who complain about high rising prices of audio....and if they think its expensive, they are in the wrong hobby...why? I have to assume for two reasons.

1) You either can't afford it. Thus your complaining about rising cost...or

2) You can afford it but you are cheap and complaining about rising cost...

Either of those two, your in the wrong hobby.

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Originally Posted by hifitommy

...the proliferation of products listing in excess of the said $4k level is staggering...

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Originally Posted by Ajani

...Context - Clearly the discussion of HiFi is about High-End (our hobby) not consumer electronics in general. So $4K is not expensive in High End....

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first - the products in excess of $4k is minuscule compared to the products beneath that threshold.

second - again, the "high-end" of hifi is a niche market, and i am not talking about consumer electronics in general, but world of audio products in general. if you want to draw the line of what qualifies as hifi with a dollar amount you'll come off just like Fremer.

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

After looking at this quote in context....its a shot at those who complain about high rising prices of audio....and if they think its expensive, they are in the wrong hobby...why? I have to assume for two reasons.

1) You either can't afford it. Thus your complaining about rising cost...or

2) You can afford it but you are cheap and complaining about rising cost...

Either of those two, your in the wrong hobby.

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I think your interpretation of what Fremer said is why so many people in this thread are taking offence:

They are unable/unwilling to separate what Fremer actually said, from the idea that if you can't afford or unwilling to pay for a $4K Amp then you don't belong in the hobby...

His line "regardless of what you can afford" should make it clear that it is not about him being prejudiced against the less affluent.

>"high-end" of hifi is a niche market<

mmmm, not so. attend rmaf or THE show in vegas, NY, or newport beach and you may change your tune.

i like affordable equipment as much as the next guy as evidenced by my inclusion of magnepan MMGs in my system. i also appreciate the finer items such as the audio research sp3a1 and sota sapphire tt in my system.

if you are happy with mid fi or what can be accomplished with vintage equipment (some of it is dam nice) the so be it. thse of us who feel like dabbling in the deep end of the pool enjoy the water as much as you.

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

After looking at this quote in context....its a shot at those who complain about high rising prices of audio....and if they think its expensive, they are in the wrong hobby...why? I have to assume for two reasons.

1) You either can't afford it. Thus your complaining about rising cost...or

2) You can afford it but you are cheap and complaining about rising cost...

Either of those two, your in the wrong hobby.

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or like me, you believe that you can attain a "high-end" system without spending $4000 for a component.

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Originally Posted by dingus

first - the products in excess of $4k is minuscule compared to the products beneath that threshold.

second - again, the "high-end" of hifi is a niche market, and i am not talking about consumer electronics in general, but world of audio products in general. if you want to draw the line of what qualifies as hifi with a dollar amount you'll come off just like Fremer.

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The context must relate to what Stereophile reviews (High End). When was the last time you read a review of a Panasonic mini-system in Stereophile?

Anyway, I think it's clear that too many persons here have no interest in either what Fremer actually said or the context of the discussion, so there really is not point continuing this.

My entire stereo setup costs less than that one $4K amp Fremer reviewed, yet I in no way see his comments as a slap in the face to me...

Also, his comment doesn't mean that only products $4K and up are "High-End"...

I think a lot of persons already have a chip on their shoulder against Stereophile and believe the magazine is snobbing them. So when they read Fremer's line they see it as evidence confirming their own expectations, rather than analysing it for what it really is...

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Originally Posted by Feanor

See my response to JA, post #9 ...

On stands, not on Zinio | Stereophile.com

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I think you (and everyone else for that matter) should read his response to you, post 10:

On stands, not on Zinio | Stereophile.com

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Originally Posted by Ajani

The context must relate to what Stereophile reviews (High End). When was the last time you read a review of a Panasonic mini-system in Stereophile?

Anyway, I think it's clear that too many persons here have no interest in either what Fremer actually said or the context of the discussion, so there really is not point continuing this.

My entire stereo setup costs less than that one $4K amp Fremer reviewed, yet I in no way see his comments as a slap in the face to me...

Also, his comment doesn't mean that only products $4K and up are "High-End"...

I think a lot of persons already have a chip on their shoulder against Stereophile and believe the magazine is snobbing them. So when they read Fremer's line they see it as evidence confirming their own expectations, rather than analysing it for what it really is...

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Fremer: "It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive", well, regardless of what you can afford, you're in the wrong hobby."

to say $4000 is not expensive is detached from reality. by any comparison, any $4000 audio component is expensive. Fremer said that i'm in the wrong hobby because i think $4000 is expensive for an amp. my problem is not with the cost of the amp, but with his attitude in regards to my participation in the hobby.

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Originally Posted by Ajani

I think your interpretation of what Fremer said is why so many people in this thread are taking offence:

They are unable/unwilling to separate what Fremer actually said, from the idea that if you can't afford or unwilling to pay for a $4K Amp then you don't belong in the hobby...

His line "regardless of what you can afford" should make it clear that it is not about him being prejudiced against the less affluent.

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I'm sorry Ajani...you and I will never agree on this one....and yes, I can't use conjecture, nor will I speculate in thought to form or express a theory or opinion of what I believe he meant as many are doing. No need to.... what he said in context is so plain. Any body with high school English skills can understand what was said in context . Why use conjecture when you can plainly see what he said in context.

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His line "regardless of what you can afford" should make it clear that it is not about him being prejudiced against the less affluent.

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His line of "regardless of what you can afford" makes it abundantly clear that he was lashing out at those who have been complaining of high prices. It is those people whom he addressed the comment..." If that's your idea of "expensive,......"you're in the wrong hobby".

Any body who understand sentence structure can see this without conjecture.

Hey fellows. Hate to point out the bleeding obvious, but this conversation has turned into a stuck record. How many times do both sides need to repeat the same talking points?

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Originally Posted by frenchmon

I'm sorry Ajani...you and I will never agree on this one....and yes, I can't use conjecture, nor will I speculate in thought to form or express a theory or opinion of what I believe he meant as many are doing. No need to.... what he said in context is so plain. Any body with high school English skills can understand what was said in context . Why use conjecture when you can plainly see what he said in context.



His line of "regardless of what you can afford" makes it abundantly clear that he was lashing out at those who have been complaining of high prices. It is those people whom he addressed the comment..." If that's your idea of "expensive,......"you're in the wrong hobby".

Any body who understand sentence structure can see this without conjecture.

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We clearly don't see eye to eye on this, as I regard your previous attempt at interpreting his comments as nothing but conjecture and speculation...

You literally listed 2 points as interpretations of his post, neither of which is what Fremer said, and frankly contradicts what he said:

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1) You either can't afford it. Thus your complaining about rising cost...or

2) You can afford it but you are cheap and complaining about rising cost...

Either of those two, your in the wrong hobby.

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That's not plain English. That's just your opinion of what he said, based on a whole load of speculation.

Anyway, it is time for me to let this go as clearly we will never agree on this... I suggest you guys go to the linked Stereophile Forum discussion and read John Atkinson's response to all this (note: his interpretation of what Fremer said is nothing like either of the 2 points you've listed). Also, perhaps Fremer will respond over there so you can ask him yourselves...

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Originally Posted by Ajani

The context must relate to what Stereophile reviews (High End). When was the last time you read a review of a Panasonic mini-system in Stereophile?

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The most expensive retail in my system is my Vincent preamp which when introduced, was $1795....at the time of my purchase it was $1500. I was able to get it for less than $1000 because it was a demo. But in the scope of audio, I would not think it as high-end and considering your remarks below and of Fremers comments in context of audio I think you would not either. So in that regard, Stereophile does infact review gear thats not only high end, but mid-fi at best.

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Anyway, I think it's clear that too many persons here have no interest in either what Fremer actually said or the context of the discussion, so there really is not point continuing this.

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I do think this conversation is old but I really do have an interest in what was actually said in CONTEXT of the paragraph. No need to speculate in the context of audio.....when it was said of those who complain of the high cost of audio gear. Why go to the context of all of audio, when he said in context whom he addressed?

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My entire stereo setup costs less than that one $4K amp Fremer reviewed, yet I in no way see his comments as a slap in the face to me...

Also, his comment doesn't mean that only products $4K and up are "High-End"...

I think a lot of persons already have a chip on their shoulder against Stereophile and believe the magazine is snobbing them. So when they read Fremer's line they see it as evidence confirming their own expectations, rather than analysing it for what it really is...

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This aint the first time I've read such remarks in Stereophile, and am sure not the last....they are no different than other magazines who also have insulting remarks....they can all say what they want....according to US laws. And for the record, I have renewed my two year subscription. I never took offence to the comment, nor other such comments in Stereophile magazine.....I will continue to read it.

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Originally Posted by mlsstl

Hey fellows. Hate to point out the bleeding obvious, but this conversation has turned into a stuck record. How many times do both sides need to repeat the same talking points?

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Yeah, I suppose you are correct...I've given away my speculation and saw the posting for what it really is......so I'm done. Just like that Stereophile quote, I hope there are no hurt feelings.

Although this has become a circular discussion, I enjoyed reading through all the viewpoints.

Aside altogether from MFs comments, 4K is not overly expensive if you know what your getting and why. So many people will drop that extra 4 or 5K on a car that does nothing different than one 4 or 5K less because of the status symbol and what the car says about the person. (or so they imagine) Same people will drop many hundreds or thousands on a watch that does not tell time any differently than a $50 watch, again because of what they perceive it says about them or how it makes them look. Then that same person will whine about how outrageously expensive a High Quality $4K amp is. Where is the reasoning behind that scenario?

I personally have never shelled out more than $1300 for new Amp, an Odyssey Stratos with upgrades, and I did spend $2500 on new Dynaudio speakers.

I do however own a few pcs of gear that fall into the price range that seems to have everyone crying foul. I can tell you first hand that these perform a whole lot better than the lesser price gear I have owned. Enough so that it is a little easier for me to justify that they just may be worth what they cost new.

I'm not sure how many in this thread have ever heard what a VAC pre amp can do (ha, when properly tubed) or what a 15 y/o Counterpoint amp can do when compared to an Emotiva or even my Stratos.

Maybe after you go hear some systems similarly setup, you would also agree that even if you would "choose not to afford them" you would come to the conclusion that they are killer compared to the run of the mill stuff everybody has.

And yes, I did say "choose" to afford. I say that because we all have different priorities. Some people smoke ciggies still and think nothing of dropping several thousand dollars to support that habit but turn around and say a top quality amp is too expensive at $4K. Others will continue to drive around in their V8-Hemi trucks getting 10 gallons to the mile and wasting many thousands in gas that they could spend on quality audio, if they so "choose".

I don't make a huge amount of money, and my wife can't work a full time job due to health issues so we have become very frugal, called cheap by others. I have a retirement account that we have built up over the years. I do have some money in places where I can get to it in a pinch. I could afford to go out and buy $20k on new high end gear if I so choose.

In the scheme of things. $4k for a high quality tube amp that has the potential of bringing you 15 years of musical happiness is not that overly expensive. Many here will also say that an OPPO93 is expensive and overkill. I own one and am absolutely satisfied that I got a machine that plays just about anything and has great streaming ability. Someone else may be perfectly satisfied with a $49 black friday player, but for what it is and does, the OPPO is not overly expensive.

How many people spend close to $100 / month on phone plans, or cable? Well that is one place I save my money in order to buy other things that the person who has to run out and buy every new iProduct is now gonna call expensive.

It's all about choices we all make. I'd be willing to bet that each one of you saying that a $4K amp is over the top has a ridiculous phone plan, runs out to buy the latest technology items, has cable or sat, drinks good beer, drives a car that they think says something about themselves, and has more than a simple Timex watch, or smokes cigarets.

Anyway, Stereophile still caters to the top money people even if they finally review 1 or 2 mid tier items per month. Just look at the advertisements in the mag and count how many are for a $200 pair of speakers or a $600 HT Receiver. Don't kid yourselves. And don't think $4K is expensive in a world where you can spend way more than that for not much more than status. I'm sure if you wanted one, you could find ways to save the money to get one.

That was a great post above about how it's not how much money you make, it's more about how much money you don't stupidly spend. It's about priorities. Some peoples priority is to continue smoking when they know it is killing them and wasting money they could easily spend on quality audio gear, if they so "choose".