Dirty Little Secrets

[melvin walker]

have you actually ever heard or seen one? let alone own one? Accuphase is equal to Mcintosh, if not better. their products will last forever, and just like Mcintosh, they sound fantastic, have the greatest build quality, are exclusive and everything you want.

Saying Accuphase will not stand the test of time is a cheap insult to the company and the owners of the gear.



This comes from a Mcintosh owner himself (me).


Keep them spinning,

Bert.

Where did I post that the Accuphase would not stand the test of time ? I asked the question. Will Accuphase stand the test of time ? McIntosh has been building audio equipment for over 50 years ,
Can you read ???

[Rich-n-Texas]

People here Melvin, even youngsters know how to read between the lines. I took what you said to mean the same thing basite took it for.

[Feanor]

Where did I post that the Accuphase would not stand the test of time ? I asked the question. Will Accuphase stand the test of time ? McIntosh has been building audio equipment for over 50 years ,
Can you read ???

Accuphase as been around for 35 years. The resale price of their old products is, in proportion to their original prices, as good or better than McIntosh' of the same era.

[emaidel]

the high end Nkamichi Dragon cassette recorder , Japan first attempt to compete with the high end cassette recorders made in Europe.
Revox and Tandberg. The Nkamichi is more likely to have mechanical failure , and is less likely to last as long as the European recorders.
.

Sorry, but that's categorically false. The Tandberg 64x, 6000, 3000 and numerous later cassette decks had astronomical failure rates, especially the 6000. I was in the service at the time, and recommended to my fellow GI's that they purchase the Tandberg 6000 over similarly priced Teac models, as Tandberg made superb sounding recordings at 3 3/4, which no Teac ever could or did. Unfortunately, the 6000's that my friends bought all had numerous mechanical problems, as did later production cassette decks. You really ought to get your facts straight before you start spouting them as sacrosanct.

[melvin walker]

Sorry, but that's categorically false. The Tandberg 64x, 6000, 3000 and numerous later cassette decks had astronomical failure rates, especially the 6000. I was in the service at the time, and recommended to my fellow GI's that they purchase the Tandberg 6000 over similarly priced Teac models, as Tandberg made superb sounding recordings at 3 3/4, which no Teac ever could or did. Unfortunately, the 6000's that my friends bought all had numerous mechanical problems, as did later production cassette decks. You really ought to get your facts straight before you start spouting them as sacrosanct.

Let's be specific , the Tandberg model 3014A is revered as one of the finest cassette recorders ever built. Check out the price of this cassette recorder on Ebay.
The Revox 215 and 715 is in the same class as the Tandberg 3014A.
The Nakamichi Dragon placed last when compared with the cassette recorders listed above. The Dragon was the finest cassette recorder built by the Japanese.
Teac is in a lower class of cassette recorders.
Your friend's should spend a little more money and they would have gotten a better Tandberg cassette recorder.
What I am comparing is high end cassette recorders in the $1000 + category.

[melvin walker]

People here Melvin, even youngsters know how to read between the lines. I took what you said to mean the same thing basite took it for.

He quoted me. I hope you are intelligent enough to understand what a quote is ?

What in the hell is reading between the lines ? does it mean that you cannot understand what you read ?
You never cease to amaze me.

[Rich-n-Texas]

If I put my first three fingers up, and you look for the one in the middle, that's the message, that's reading between the lines.

Hope this helps.

[JSE]

35, 50 years whatever. Is that not time tested? Did I miss something?

[melvin walker]

Accuphase as been around for 35 years. The resale price of their old products is, in proportion to their original prices, as good or better than McIntosh' of the same era.

If you read my post I did not compare McIntosh with Accuphase. I was pointing out that the companies I listed had stood the test of time. I named those companies. Most of those companies have been around more than 50 years , some even longer.Many was no longer building audio equipment in the 1970's.

There was no Accuphase when Marantz interduced his Model one preamp or Fairchild's their 412-1A Transcripton turntable. Accuphase while an excellent audio company ,
is a post 1970 company. McIntosh was producing audio equipment in the 1950's, so were
the other companies I listed.
The fact that a Marantz Model 9A mono power amp which sold for $384.00 in 1963 sells for in excess of $4500 dollars today speaks worlds about a 45 year old piece of audio gear.
a James B. Lansing Ranger Paragram sold for $2250 in 1963 , if you can find one it will sell for $50.000 today. Can Accuphase match those numbers ? What was the price of a top of the line 1975 Accuphase amp ? what is it selling for today ?

[bobsticks]

35, 50 years whatever. Is that not time tested? Did I miss something?

Amen, Brother Burrito. If I'm still listening to same the disc player 35 years from now it indicates a serious lack of progress in the research and development of audio.

Uuum, are we really talking about cassettes?

[Luvin Da Blues]

Uuum, are we really talking about cassettes?

Yep, 'fraid so

[Mr Peabody]

In post 70's the Japanese pretty much took over the American market in electronics. Mac is now Japanese as well as other once famous American brands.. Say what you will but they found some one asleep at the wheel and we've yet to wake up. Of course, now China steps in and does the same thing but cheaper. Most Japanese brands aren't even built in Japan anymore.

[pixelthis]

In post 70's the Japanese pretty much took over the American market in electronics. Mac is now Japanese as well as other once famous American brands.. Say what you will but they found some one asleep at the wheel and we've yet to wake up. Of course, now China steps in and does the same thing but cheaper. Most Japanese brands aren't even built in Japan anymore.

I SAW on one of those "learning channels" about how they put together MACS IN AN
AMERICAN factory.
CHINA HAS TAKEN OVER MOST PRODUCTION BUT THERE STILL IS SOME AMERICAN MANUFACTURING going on.
And mac is and always will be the GOLD standard for high end audio gear.
There never has or ever will be ANYTHING even close.
there are only three types of audio enthusiast .
1. those who have Macs
2. those who want macs
3.those newbies who dont understand what Mac is.
Any comparsion betwen mac and other lesser types of gear is flawed.
Macs stand apart, in a class by themselves

[basite]

I SAW on one of those "learning channels" about how they put together MACS IN AN
AMERICAN factory.
CHINA HAS TAKEN OVER MOST PRODUCTION BUT THERE STILL IS SOME AMERICAN MANUFACTURING going on.
And mac is and always will be the GOLD standard for high end audio gear.
There never has or ever will be ANYTHING even close.
there are only three types of audio enthusiast .
1. those who have Macs
2. those who want macs
3.those newbies who dont understand what Mac is.
Any comparsion betwen mac and other lesser types of gear is flawed.
Macs stand apart, in a class by themselves

um yes, in their own factory...
they even build their own transformers, which is something few companies (still) do...

and yes they're a class apart, but there are still other brands too that produce everything in their own factory. Accuphase comes to mind again...

and what class do you belong to? I have a Mcintosh, but I want more, now what do I do

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[basite]

Where did I post that the Accuphase would not stand the test of time ? I asked the question. Will Accuphase stand the test of time ? McIntosh has been building audio equipment for over 50 years ,
Can you read ???

you were asking, but you were asking in such a way that you believed the answer would be 'no'. Now that's assuming, which gives me the right to defend myself.

[Mr Peabody]

Mac was owned by Clarion before going to D&M, it could be possible they've maintained quality of the original gear but I have my doubts. Especially if you've ever heard their preamp processors, there are much better for much less. With this being said I agree Mac is still a good product, just some more than others. Pix Mac is definitely not the last word in audio gear. There are many who surpass them in quality and sound.

[basite]

Pix Mac is definitely not the last word in audio gear. There are many who surpass them in quality and sound.

during their Clarion period, they came up with surround sound (for HT uses), and car audio. Stereo product's quality remained fantastic however, I do feel they're better off at D&M though, they have more freedom now, which results in way better products...

and I agree that there are better products as a Mcintosh (well, sound wise), but Mcintosh is a company with a really special house sound, and if you like that particular house sound, nothing else will do.

they are still quite exclusive and still very high end though. And their sound quality is ever improving, their new MC1.2kw amps are a huge difference over the previous MC1201's, even though spec wise, it's almost the same amp...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[emaidel]

As there are several other threads where Melvin Walker posts half-truths about audio, and can't seem to move beyond 1958, let me try to bring my own thread back on topic, which is/was, "Dirty Little Secrets."

Retailers in the heyday of the business (late 70's) carried the lines of electronics they did mostly for the sake of profit margins, and not because they believed that Kenwood (just as an example) was indeed "better" than Pioneer, or that Marantz was better than JVC, and so on. Most dealers couldn't be faulted for choosing "push" lines of electronics, since having a brand other dealers didn't gave them an exclusive, and a chance to make a decent profit, especially when a brand such as Pioneer was so overly distributed and heavily discounted that making money on it was all but impossible.

That was very true about Pioneer, but there was never anything wrong the the product itself. One dealer, Audio Warehouse, based in Ohio, took a very aggressive and highly unethical approach. Audio Warhouse's key electronics line was Kenwood, not necessarily because it was "better" than others, but likely because the owner of Audio Warehouse and the local Kenwood rep were drug-using buddies who likely used their enormous wealth to supply one another with a continuous amount of cocaine.

Apparently, the cocaine use really screwed up the owner of the chain, as he embarked on an anti-Pioneer campaign in which he'd flagrantly advertise a Kenwood unit and make comparisons to a "lesser," and "inferior" Pioneer in his newspaper ads. He'd often advertise a Pioneer piece for a lowball price (he wasn't a Pioneer dealer) and then when someone arrived in one of his stores to buy it, that person received a high pressure effort from the salespeople to push a Kenwood unit instead due to how "lousy," "cheap," and "crummy" the Pioneer unit supposedly was.


The VP of Pioneer, Bernie Halpurn, was one of the most respected people in the industry, who systematically went about collecting evidence against Audio Warehouse to sue them for fraud. Bernie.hired a large amount of individuals to shop Audio Warehouse stores and recorded the lies and distortions the salespeople fed them about Pioneer equipment. Bernie also had a ton of ads to support his cause as well. This went on for a year or so, and then the lawsuit was launched, and it did just as Bernie intended it to: it put Audio Warehouse out of business.

In the end, Pioneer was the winner. Still, throughout this debacle, both the owner of Audio Warehouse and the Kenwood rep made a small fortune, and did so with a total lack of honesty, ethics or even decency. Kenwood made a fine product, and some Kenwood products were indeed better than competing Pioneer units, but the approach Audio Warehouse used was disgraceful.

[Ajani]

As there are several other threads where Melvin Walker posts half-truths about audio, and can't seem to move beyond 1958, let me try to bring my own thread back on topic, which is/was, "Dirty Little Secrets."
...........

LOL

Excellent thread by the way...

Keep it coming....

[melvin walker]

As there are several other threads where Melvin Walker posts half-truths about audio, and can't seem to move beyond 1958, let me try to bring my own thread back on topic, which is/was, "Dirty Little Secrets."

Retailers in the heyday of the business (late 70's) carried the lines of electronics they did mostly for the sake of profit margins, and not because they believed that Kenwood (just as an example) was indeed "better" than Pioneer, or that Marantz was better than JVC, and so on. Most dealers couldn't be faulted for choosing "push" lines of electronics, since having a brand other dealers didn't gave them an exclusive, and a chance to make a decent profit, especially when a brand such as Pioneer was so overly distributed and heavily discounted that making money on it was all but impossible.

That was very true about Pioneer, but there was never anything wrong the the product itself. One dealer, Audio Warehouse, based in Ohio, took a very aggressive and highly unethical approach. Audio Warhouse's key electronics line was Kenwood, not necessarily because it was "better" than others, but likely because the owner of Audio Warehouse and the local Kenwood rep were drug-using buddies who likely used their enormous wealth to supply one another with a continuous amount of cocaine.

Apparently, the cocaine use really screwed up the owner of the chain, as he embarked on an anti-Pioneer campaign in which he'd flagrantly advertise a Kenwood unit and make comparisons to a "lesser," and "inferior" Pioneer in his newspaper ads. He'd often advertise a Pioneer piece for a lowball price (he wasn't a Pioneer dealer) and then when someone arrived in one of his stores to buy it, that person received a high pressure effort from the salespeople to push a Kenwood unit instead due to how "lousy," "cheap," and "crummy" the Pioneer unit supposedly was.


The VP of Pioneer, Bernie Halpurn, was one of the most respected people in the industry, who systematically went about collecting evidence against Audio Warehouse to sue them for fraud. Bernie.hired a large amount of individuals to shop Audio Warehouse stores and recorded the lies and distortions the salespeople fed them about Pioneer equipment. Bernie also had a ton of ads to support his cause as well. This went on for a year or so, and then the lawsuit was launched, and it did just as Bernie intended it to: it put Audio Warehouse out of business.

In the end, Pioneer was the winner. Still, throughout this debacle, both the owner of Audio Warehouse and the Kenwood rep made a small fortune, and did so with a total lack of honesty, ethics or even decency. Kenwood made a fine product, and some Kenwood products were indeed better than competing Pioneer units, but the approach Audio Warehouse used was disgraceful.

You are I guess referring to mid range audio gear. Pioneer was a late player on the audio scene. Their audio equipment was fair to middling. You also referred to Marantz , which Marantz before are after it was made in the United States ? If before one would never compare Marantz with JVC ! , JVC and Pioneer was no different from the flood of indifferent middling Japanese audio being sold to an indifferent audio public.

Kenwood did build some decent audio gear , not high end but decent. What is a piece of Kenwood audio gear selling for today ? Pioneer , JVC , and most used mid range Japanese audio equipment can be had for a song.

1958 , a good year ,Gigi won the Academy Award , the most popular book wa Dr. Zhivago , My Fair Lady began it's run on Broadway , The Baltimore Colts defeated the New
York Giants in the first overtime championship game , transistor radios made their first appearance and many Americans moved from the big cities to the suburbs.
I bought my first stereo equipment . A pair of Stephens low boy speakers , Lesa changer ,General Electric cartridge , Pilot preamp, power amp and FM tuner.
Price , on sale for $450.00 !
1958 a good year. Oh yes I was driving a 1957 Studebaker Golden Hawk.
All this and attending College as a full time student.
No Japanese junk for me , In 1958 there was none !
A counterpoint.

[basite]

Pioneer was no different from the flood of indifferent middling Japanese audio being sold to an indifferent audio public.

perhaps you have never heard of the Pioneer Spec line, or from the Pioneer Exclusive line, which are both highly sought after, and often go for the same and more than the marantzes that were built in america. Especially the Exclusive line.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/PIONEER/PIONEER-main.html

perhaps you've also never heard of Kenwood's Supreme line, also definately high end.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/KENWOO...PREME700.html#

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Mr Peabody]

I had some Kenwood upper end gear called the "D" series. This was very good but still mid-fi, not on the same level as Mac or other brands unanimously considered high end. I seriously doubt Pioneer ever did either. Sometimes people seek the vintage gear for all the wrong reasons I try to keep an open mind but Pioneer has always been disappointing to me. Except their TV's, how they do that, who knows, probably buy from some one else.

Melvin you give the Japanese mass market too much credit, it was entry at best. Some of the gear was pretty good though. Luxman held it's own for awhile. I have a Sansui AU9500 that I have been extremely impressed with, it could probably hold it's own with entry high end gear like Arcam and the like. Too bad Pilot and other American companies couldn't stay in business to offer future generations something besides Japanese gear. It was pretty good to the average Joe who couldn't afford the American stuff still around like Mac, ARC or Conrad Johnson. There are always exceptions but for the most part the Japanese gear built in Japan was reliable. Harmon Kardon's in the 80's never came back after the sale.

[melvin walker]

perhaps you have never heard of the Pioneer Spec line, or from the Pioneer Exclusive line, which are both highly sought after, and often go for the same and more than the marantzes that were built in america. Especially the Exclusive line.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/PIONEER/PIONEER-main.html

perhaps you've also never heard of Kenwood's Supreme line, also definately high end.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/KENWOO...PREME700.html#

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

I want to ge this in writing , question , the Pioneer Exclusive line and the Kenwood Supreme 700 is selling used for the same price as the Marantz Model 9A's power amps ?
The Marantz 10B tuner , the Marantz 8B power amp , the Marantz 7C pre amp and the Marantz Model One pre amps ? used ?

Would you want to use Ebay as a source ? Are what source would you suggest ?

[basite]

I want to ge this in writing , question , the Pioneer Exclusive line and the Kenwood Supreme 700 is selling used for the same price as the Marantz Model 9A's power amps ?
The Marantz 10B tuner , the Marantz 8B power amp , the Marantz 7C pre amp and the Marantz Model One pre amps ? used ?

Would you want to use Ebay as a source ? Are what source would you suggest ?

currently, all the models you said are on Audiogon, the spec line sells for less as the marantzes, so does the Kenwood, but they're still worth alot.

Good luck even finding a second hand Pioneer Exclusive amp or preamp. If those things ever come up for sale, it's probably in Japan only, that's how rare they are.

here's another one for ya, they're from 1987, so not really vintage vintage, but not new neither.
Centennial Series, from that other Japanese brand, Yamaha. Saw their cd player, preamp and poweramp on Ebay germany a while back. Each item ended well over $10k, way above their original retail price.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[melvin walker]

I had some Kenwood upper end gear called the "D" series. This was very good but still mid-fi, not on the same level as Mac or other brands unanimously considered high end. I seriously doubt Pioneer ever did either. Sometimes people seek the vintage gear for all the wrong reasons I try to keep an open mind but Pioneer has always been disappointing to me. Except their TV's, how they do that, who knows, probably buy from some one else.

Melvin you give the Japanese mass market too much credit, it was entry at best. Some of the gear was pretty good though. Luxman held it's own for awhile. I have a Sansui AU9500 that I have been extremely impressed with, it could probably hold it's own with entry high end gear like Arcam and the like. Too bad Pilot and other American companies couldn't stay in business to offer future generations something besides Japanese gear. It was pretty good to the average Joe who couldn't afford the American stuff still around like Mac, ARC or Conrad Johnson. There are always exceptions but for the most part the Japanese gear built in Japan was reliable. Harmon Kardon's in the 80's never came back after the sale.

I agree , What Gucci said makes sense ." Quality remains after the price is forgotten "
Marantz was slightly better than McIntosh and slightly higher in cost.
Some people do buy used items for the wrong reasons. That does not mean the item is not well made and built to last for years. The Ranger Paragon is a good example.
James B. Lansing built it's speakers to last and last. That was of course prior to 1970 !

There was other American audio companies that did the same. Conrad Johnson and Audio Research tried carrying on that American tradition of high quality audio equipment.
The cost of research and development , labor , and parts drove most American audio companies out of business. Sound familiar ? Enter cheap labor and effective promotion
and we have what is popular today , "if it's new it must be better."

Again you are correct Harmon Kardon , Fisher , Marantz , McIntosh , JBL , etc, were never the same after being sold. The list is endless. Most young people today has no idea
what real quality is because of the cost today of real quality.
Finally I will as usual use cars as an example. Mercedes vs Lexus, Mercedes will travel at over a hundred mph all day , a Lexus has all the new bells and whistles. Some would say they are equal I hope you get my point.