Dirty Little Secrets

[bobsticks]

I
And mac is and always will be the GOLD standard for high end audio gear.
There never has or ever will be ANYTHING even close.
:

That is so assinine that it barely deserves comment.

Yes, McIntosh makes some excellent products, but listen to products from Accuphase, some Krell, PS Audio, VAC, some Classe...the list goes on and on. There's never been a better time to be a lover of music. There's a sizeable group of manufacturers building top notch equipment and one must only find the system that meets one criteria and preferences.

I swear, some of y'all argue 'bout this shiite like it's a teddy bear named Mohammed.

[Groundbeef]

That is so assinine that it barely deserves comment.

Yes, McIntosh makes some excellent products, but listen to products from Accuphase, some Krell, PS Audio, VAC, some Classe...the list goes on and on. There's never been a better time to be a lover of music. There's a sizeable group of manufacturers building top notch equipment and one must only find the system that meets one criteria and preferences.

I swear, some of y'all argue 'bout this shiite like it's a teddy bear named Mohammed.

I just had to giggle with the thought of Pixel in the 80's rockin' at the beach with an Apple II hoisted over his shoulder ala' BoomBox style!

[SlumpBuster]

Just to add to Stick's admonition, I'd like to point out that arguing about cassette decks and who made the best one kinda definately probably stoopid too. It like arguing over whose hot dog is more gourmet... regardless, they just hot dogs. Just like to point out that the cassette was/is/will be a lo-fi medium shoe-horned and crammed kicking and screaming into a hi-fi product.

Cassettes are to Hi-Fi as Posh Spice is to beautiful women, niether are either, but lots o' people claim they are.

[basite]

Just to add to Stick's admonition, I'd like to point out that arguing about cassette decks and who made the best one kinda definately probably stoopid too. It like arguing over whose hot dog is more gourmet... regardless, they just hot dogs. Just like to point out that the cassette was/is/will be a lo-fi medium shoe-horned and crammed kicking and screaming into a hi-fi product.

Cassettes are to Hi-Fi as Posh Spice is to beautiful women, niether are either, but lots o' people claim they are.

yeah, I get your point. cassettes aren't really high end, so what we're actually talking about

[SlumpBuster]

yeah, I get your point. cassettes aren't really high end, so what we're actually talking about

Yeah, keep in mind though, I still listen to cassettes all the time. Some of my favorite albums I only have on cassette and cannot find them on LP or CD. Also, I have lots of mixtapes, college radio shows, and live club broadcasts from the 90s, all on cassette. My Pioneer keeps going, but I've been browsing Nads, Akai, Denon, and Yammie on Ebay. But, getting cassette decks off Ebay is such a crap shoot.

[melvin walker]

That is so assinine that it barely deserves comment.

Yes, McIntosh makes some excellent products, but listen to products from Accuphase, some Krell, PS Audio, VAC, some Classe...the list goes on and on. There's never been a better time to be a lover of music. There's a sizeable group of manufacturers building top notch equipment and one must only find the system that meets one criteria and preferences.

I swear, some of y'all argue 'bout this shiite like it's a teddy bear named Mohammed.

Do a little research , review some of the past issues of Audio , High Fidelity , High Fidelity Stereo Review and Stereohile.magazines And you will find that Marantz generally recieved higher
test reviews than Mc.Intosh. Marantz generally was more expensive. Mack never made an amp equal to the Model 9's nor a tuner equal to the 10B Mack MC240 was rated lower than Marantz's 8B.

The Mack 60's was excellent power amps and so was the Mack MC75's. The MC275
while an excellent amp generally received average reviews.
The Marantz Model 8B also was highly regarded by audiophiles who had efficient speakers, such as horns are bass reflex enclosures.

As for as argue audiophiles as hobbyist , much as car hobbyist did have friendly debates as which
was which was the best , Mack or Marantz , Lansing or Bozak , Thorens or Fairchild.
Same as chevvy vs Ford , , Benz vs BMW , Corvette vs Cobra and Cadillac vs Lincoln.
I might add they did not use loose language !
Times have changed.

[Groundbeef]

I might add they did not use loose language !
Times have changed.

Yes they have. Back in your time, loose language could invite a duel. No one likes to die over a "loose" word. At least today we can engage in civil debate, and not have to pace off 20 steps.

[melvin walker]

yeah, I get your point. cassettes aren't really high end, so what we're actually talking about

I would assume you never heard of Revox , Tandberg and Nakamichi cassette recorders. . They were and still is the state of the art. All three cassette recorders were high end ! CD players later replaced them as DVD players. is replacing CD players.
I guess there is no high end CD players ? It appears DVD players is being replaced with iPOD's.
There are those that would argue that iPOD's are low fi.
What do you think a Revox cassette recorder cost ? On Ebay a used Revox B215 is going for over $500.00 if you can find one. They listed when new for over $2000 !

[Luvin Da Blues]

Yeah, keep in mind though, I still listen to cassettes all the time. Some of my favorite albums I only have on cassette and cannot find them on LP or CD. Also, I have lots of mixtapes, college radio shows, and live club broadcasts from the 90s, all on cassette. My Pioneer keeps going, but I've been browsing Nads, Akai, Denon, and Yammie on Ebay. But, getting cassette decks off Ebay is such a crap shoot.

Slumpy, RU lookin for a tape deck??? I have a close to TOL HarmonKardon I could part with. It has very few hours on it and has been well taken care of with TLC.

[Mr Peabody]

I think when some one said cassette wasn't high end they were referring to sound reproduction. I haven't heard a Revox nor a Dragon but did their sound rival a good reel to reel or even a hi fi VHS?

[melvin walker]

Yes they have. Back in your time, loose language could invite a duel. No one likes to die over a "loose" word. At least today we can engage in civil debate, and not have to pace off 20 steps.

Duels ended in the 19th century in America. Civil debate does not include loose language. This website is not the gutter. It appears that respect in some quarters is considered old fashion , judging by the loose language I have read exhibited here.

No one would die from a loose word , but a loose word would mean a warning and than a removable from participation on the forum.
This website is very liberal !

[Groundbeef]

I would assume you never heard of Revox , Tandberg and Nakamichi cassette recorders. . They were and still is the state of the art. All three cassette recorders were high end ! CD players later replaced them as DVD players. is replacing CD players.
I guess there is no high end CD players ? It appears DVD players is being replaced with iPOD's.There are those that would argue that iPOD's are low fi.
What do you think a Revox cassette recorder cost ? On Ebay a used Revox B215 is going for over $500.00 if you can find one. They listed when new for over $2000 !

There is no doubt that tape is very good, or studios wouldn't have used it for so long.

However, I must take issue with another point. I've bolded it, and am requesting clarification from you, Melvin.

What are you basing your suggestion on? I can't think of any instance where a consumer thinks to themselves, "Boy, I sure do need a DVD player. Oh wait, I have an IPOD. Never mind, I guess I really didn't need that DVD player after all!".

Perhaps CD players are being supplanted by both computers, and Ipods, but not DVD players.

[bobsticks]

As for as argue audiophiles as hobbyist , much as car hobbyist did have friendly debates as which
was which was the best , Mack or Marantz , Lansing or Bozak , Thorens or Fairchild.
Same as chevvy vs Ford , , Benz vs BMW , Corvette vs Cobra and Cadillac vs Lincoln.
I might add they did not use loose language !
Times have changed.

To what loose language are you referring Mel? Or, are you utilizing the inference and assumption that you ask us not to use when reviewing your posts...

By the bye, my diplomacy and etiquette skills are quite refined, at least to the point that they've helped me land a professional position affording me the opportunity to enjoy some of the very equipment about which you opine. Kinda scary isn't it, you and I could show up at the same social gathering...you with your rudy-poo auto luminaries and me with your grand-daughter...I'll try and mind my tongue in your august presence.

[SlumpBuster]

Once again Melvin, you are showing your lack of knowledge. Sure there were high end cassette decks that cost alot of money. But, they were playing back a lo-fi medium. The cassette tape was initially developed as a dictation medium with sound quality similar to AM radio. The record industry saw a potential market for it and technology improved, but modern cassettes cannot by definition rivel CD or LP. Could they pass an A/B blind test? Sure, but not on a regular basis. Whether your Campbell's soup is the condensed version for 90cents or the Chunky version for $2.99, its still soup in a can. Thats they way it is with cassettes.

Your reference to the Ipod demonstrates a gross missunderstanding about digital playback. An Ipod is niether hi-fi or lo-fi, but is neutral. It is merely a flash drive with a DAC. The data and the compression method, if any, as well as the DAC used will determine whether the sound produced is hi or lo fi. An Ipod running lossless into an Audio Note DAC into Arcam amplification out of a pair of Theils will never, by anyone be considered lofi.

[SlumpBuster]

Oh and not all tape is equal. Reel to reel, vhs, half inch, ect, are all clearly hi-fi medium.

[melvin walker]

I think when some one said cassette wasn't high end they were referring to sound reproduction. I haven't heard a Revox nor a Dragon but did their sound rival a good reel to reel or even a hi fi VHS?

Audio cassettes did match many of the open reel recorders in the final years of production.
The C type which was used on high end recorders such as Revox and Dragon enable the cassette to produce identical recordings later there was further improvement .the S type.

Digital Audio Tape ( DAT) was the next step in cassette improvement. DAT was killed off by the fight between the federal government and the performers over rights. By the time that was settled CD's was on the market. As you know when you buy a blank DVD there is royalty charge attached to the DVD.

The cassette recorders listed above was better quality than VHS , mainly because non of the high end manufactures was involved. VHS was mass marketed to by now an indifferent public , Beta was better , but that's another story.

Most of the cassettes for auto and home used type B for listening and recording. Inferior to type C. The high end Revox's ,Tandberg's and Dragons were outstanding cassette recorders , but they were pricy, even today they bring high prices used.

[melvin walker]

Once again Melvin, you are showing your lack of knowledge. Sure there were high end cassette decks that cost alot of money. But, they were playing back a lo-fi medium. The cassette tape was initially developed as a dictation medium with sound quality similar to AM radio. The record industry saw a potential market for it and technology improved, but modern cassettes cannot by definition rivel CD or LP. Could they pass an A/B blind test? Sure, but not on a regular basis. Whether your Campbell's soup is the condensed version for 90cents or the Chunky version for $2.99, its still soup in a can. Thats they way it is with cassettes.

Your reference to the Ipod demonstrates a gross missunderstanding about digital playback. An Ipod is neither hi-fi or lo-fi, but is neutral. It is merely a flash drive with a DAC. The data and the compression method, if any, as well as the DAC used will determine whether the sound produced is hi or lo fi. An Ipod running lossless into an Audio Note DAC into Arcam amplification out of a pair of Theils will never, by anyone be considered lofi.

There is no point in continuing this discussion unless you are willing to do some research
Audio magazine did test reports on all the cassette recorders listed.
Read the reports and get back.
I have the reports on the Revox and Tandberg , and if I looked hard enough the Dragon.
I have heard all three , you have not , I have read the test reports , you have not, , but you can get them , you can either go to your local library are maybe find the test reports on your computer.

In the reproduction of music nothing is neutral. Unless one is listening to a live performance , that performance is being reproduced by something. An Ipod is no different.
Even if only relays something to something else it adds something to that something else.

[Groundbeef]

Most of the cassettes for auto and home used type B for listening and recording. Inferior to type C. The high end Revox's ,Tandberg's and Dragons were outstanding cassette recorders , but they were pricy, even today they bring high prices used.

You should be careful when inferring "Quality" with "Price" in regards to old used equipment. Depending upon the library someone has built up in a specific technology may cause the price to rise regardless of quality.

While I would never argue that 8mm home movies are "top quality" compared to equipment availiable today (HD camcorders with solid state hard drives, 1080p with 5.1 sound etc). The prices for used 8mm home movie players is not 'cheap'.

Its simple supply and demand. If I want to watch old home movies that my dad took, then I need the equipment. I need it regardless of "quality", and since I can't go down to my local BB and pick up new 8mm equipment, I have to "pay" what the market will bear.

[Groundbeef]

There is no point in continuing this discussion unless you are willing to do some research
Audio magazine did test reports on all the cassette recorders listed.
Read the reports and get back.
I have the reports on the Revox and Tandberg , and if I looked hard enough the Dragon.
I have heard all three , you have not , I have read the test reports , you have not, , but you can get them , you can either go to your local library are maybe find the test reports on your computer.

In the reproduction of music nothing is neutral. Unless one is listening to a live performance , that performance is being reproduced by something. An Ipod is no different.
Even if only relays something to something else it adds something to that something else.

Well Melvin, there is a difference between tape, and digital. I can listen to a CD in the house, car, or burn it onto an IPOD. If I don't compress it, there is no difference in the format chosen. The kicker is, I can listen to it THOUSANDS of times, without any degradation of the format itself.

Listen to a tape more than a handful to times, and there is noticable difference in quality. Listen over 25 times, and the sound can become muddy, fade in and out, and warble. Not to mention that heads get dirty, tapes break, and there isn't any practical way to go from the first song, to the last, to the middle, and then back again.

Tapes had their time in the sun. It has now set, and it is foolish to argue as though tape is going to make a roaring comeback.

It like arguing who makes the best buggy whip. It may be academic, but in the end completely useless. It doesn't forward A/V, nor increase our regard for your opinion.

[melvin walker]

You should be careful when inferring "Quality" with "Price" in regards to old used equipment. Depending upon the library someone has built up in a specific technology may cause the price to rise regardless of quality.

While I would never argue that 8mm home movies are "top quality" compared to equipment availiable today (HD camcorders with solid state hard drives, 1080p with 5.1 sound etc). The prices for used 8mm home movie players is not 'cheap'.

Its simple supply and demand. If I want to watch old home movies that my dad took, then I need the equipment. I need it regardless of "quality", and since I can't go down to my local BB and pick up new 8mm equipment, I have to "pay" what the market will bear.

Two quotes " The name does not guarantee the quality , the quality guarantees the name Coco Channel . "The quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten " Gucci.
Revox and Tandberg is revered for their quality in audio. I am not aware that either comany manufactures 8mm films.

Stanley Marcus former chairman of Neiman Marcus was asked " What would be a better choice a new Toyota are a 15 year old 928 Porsche ? " Mr. Marcus's reply was " the 10 year old Porsche , after all it's a $80.000 car ".
Quality is not cheap .

[bobsticks]

Mr. Marcus is a fool for answering that question with incomplete data. Is it a 15 year old car that has sat in a museum or one that has been driven 30,000 miles a year or has it been crashed? Simply making a purchase of anything due to it's name is snobbish at best.

Also, Mistah Hi-Society it's Coco Chanel. The Coco Channel is broadcast out of the Neverland Ranch by chimpanzees.

[SlumpBuster]

Digital Audio Tape ( DAT) was the next step in cassette improvement. DAT was killed off by the fight between the federal government and the performers over rights. By the time that was settled CD's was on the market. As you know when you buy a blank DVD there is royalty charge attached to the DVD.

You're right Melvin. There is no point in continuing debate if you're not going to do any research.

Your assertion "DAT was the next step in cassette improvement" demonstrates that you don't know what you are talking about and that it is useless to try to explain to you why you don't know what you are talking about. Anyone who actually knows anything will see immediately what is wrong with your assertion. You sir are a dullard.

[JSE]

Screw all you techo-minded, hi-fi wanna-be, hi-faluten stereo snobs and your Cassettes, CDs, DVDs, iPods, and Blue Ray players.

8-TRACK RULES!!!!!

Get with the times people!

JSE

[GMichael]

Screw all you techo-minded, hi-fi wanna-be, hi-faluten stereo snobs and your Cassettes, CDs, DVDs, iPods, and Blue Ray players.

8-TRACK RULES!!!!!

Get with the times people!

JSE

Can you prove that? Got any quotes from 1978 to support your claim?

[bobsticks]

I would assume you never heard of Revox , Tandberg and Nakamichi cassette recorders. . They were and still is(sic) the state of the art. All three cassette recorders were high end !.
!

SOTA Cassette: