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  1. #1
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    Can your CD Player make a difference?

    I have owned a Yamaha RXV 2095 HT Receiver for four years and have never been happy with it, especially when playing CDs. I always found the sound, although very clear and accurate, too bland, with no presence or liveness to it. So I've been thinking about replacing it with either a Rotel 1075, or a Denon AVR 3805, maybe the 5803, but that is really beyond my budget, or a Yamaha RXV 2400. The first two sound much warmer too me. The last one, frankly, I have not auditioned.

    But, recently I got a Cassette Tape Deck for my system, so that I could play the 500 or so cassettes that I had put in storage. The deck, by the way, is a TEAC 860R. As soon as I played my first tape, I noticed a huge improvement in the sound. It sounded warmer, clearer, more like the music was being played in my living room.

    So here is my question: Is my problem, my receiver, or my CD Player? I have a Yamaha CDC 775 (was top of line 4 years ago). And would it make sense to replace my CD Player instead of my Receiver and save a ton of money? Or is the problem in my head?

    Thanks for your responses.

    Jeffrey N, Toronto.

  2. #2
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    Source components are very important. They are the "first link in the audio chain." If they do not do their job well, then how can anything after then perform well? "Garbage going in, garbage going out!" Long live Ivor Tiefenbraun! I say go out and listen to CD players. Let your ears decide for you!
    Remember, different isn't always better, but it is different.
    Keep things as simple as possible, but not too simple.
    Let your ears decide for you!

  3. #3
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    Well, if you really boil it down, EVERYTHING is important.
    Everything from the recording quality of the CD/LP/SACD/tape/R&R/etc to the shape and size of your room. That's when your gear skyrockets in price.

    Just bought 10k speakers? well now you need 1k cables to support them.
    Since your speakers are 10k, we must match them with a nice amp/preamp. Let's say 6k to be modest. Hmm, source needs an upgrade. turntable for 10k and DAC+transport for 5k. Oh man...since I have high end source, I should get some nice interconnects! well...there goes another several hundred...

    Now you just spent 30k on some gear.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey N
    I have owned a Yamaha RXV 2095 HT Receiver for four years and have never been happy with it, especially when playing CDs. I always found the sound, although very clear and accurate, too bland, with no presence or liveness to it. So I've been thinking about replacing it with either a Rotel 1075, or a Denon AVR 3805, maybe the 5803, but that is really beyond my budget, or a Yamaha RXV 2400. The first two sound much warmer too me. The last one, frankly, I have not auditioned.

    But, recently I got a Cassette Tape Deck for my system, so that I could play the 500 or so cassettes that I had put in storage. The deck, by the way, is a TEAC 860R. As soon as I played my first tape, I noticed a huge improvement in the sound. It sounded warmer, clearer, more like the music was being played in my living room.

    So here is my question: Is my problem, my receiver, or my CD Player? I have a Yamaha CDC 775 (was top of line 4 years ago). And would it make sense to replace my CD Player instead of my Receiver and save a ton of money? Or is the problem in my head?

    Thanks for your responses.

    Jeffrey N, Toronto.
    My brother recently sold his 2095. While he owned it, it played CDs quite well. I know that one time he did have a Cal. Acoustics CD tube player on this receiver. However, he bought a Marantz CC65 multiplay unit which played extroadinary well on the 2095 with the analogue outputs on the Marantz. I would listen to some players out there and see which ones not only play the cleanest sound but also have at the same time the most dynamics and fullness of sound. What ever you choose, be sure you can get a money back guarantee on the unit. While you should try out the analogue outputs of the player you choose, if it has a coax or optical out on the player, you should also try that on the receiver as well. My brother;s previous receiver was an AM-FI Pro-Logic model. He had bought a Yamaha CD player for that unit. He had to return it because the Yamaha codes on the CD player conflicted with the operations of the AM-FI unit. He then put what I think was the Marantz unit on it. We noticed that the Yamaha did not play as loud as the Marantz CD unit. This could also be your case as well.

  5. #5
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    I had a mega-cd player that I didn't know was a bad source until I gave it to my girlfriend and bought a dvd player, then I knew. Since you say your tape deck sounds better I think that it probably isn't that good. But you don't have to spend alot of money to get a good dvd/cd player.
    When I was searching for a dvd player, in the specs I noticed that the harmonic distortion was extremely low for the model I was considering. Lower than a Bryston amp I owned in the early 80's. So I knew it would probably be a good audio source, even though the reviews for this model aren't that favorable.
    I would imagine that most players of today have better lasers than 4 years ago and would be an improvement over what you have now.
    My .02 cents

  6. #6
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    Hmmm... let's recap

    You said:

    "when playing CDs. I always found the sound, although very clear and accurate, too bland, with no presence or liveness to it."

    "As soon as I played my first tape, I noticed a huge improvement in the sound. It sounded warmer, clearer, more like the music was being played in my living room."

    You've just described perfectly why many people prefer the sound of analog over the sound of digital. The problem seems to be neither your CD player nor your receiver but your CD's. But since CD's are here to stay, you might check out some different players. On the other hand, CD players are (aside from cables) the closet thing to a commodity product the audio world has to offer, IMHO. You usually won't find much in the way of differences in the sound of CD players and, if you do, I'd question their accuracy. Certainly a CD player can be designed to sound different - let's say "warmer" since you used that term in describing amps. If that mates well with your system, I'd say go for it. But if the goal of audio is to accurately portray what's on the disc, you're straying from that goal with a euphonically designed CD player. Not that there are Audio Police that will cart you off to jail for it, of course! The REAL goal of your audio system should be to provide you with the most possible enjoyment.

    First thing I'd do is compare a cassette with the same CD. You may simply prefer analog. Sounds like you're more into the natural sound of music rather than the antiseptic sound of audio. If so, you're among friends. If I listened to what the so called experts who measure rather than listen, my listening sessions would be less than fulfilling sonically. If you consistently prefer the sound of cassette tape, you might consider buying a turntable and some LP's. Or not. If not, just search for good sounding CD's. I'm told there are some out there.

  7. #7
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    Just bought 10k speakers? well now you need 1k cables to support them.


    Nonsense. Absolute hogwash.

    Since your speakers are 10k, we must match them with a nice amp/preamp. Let's say 6k to be modest.

    More silly advice.


    Hmm, source needs an upgrade. turntable for 10k and DAC+transport for 5k. Oh man...since I have high end source, I should get some nice interconnects! well...there goes another several hundred...

    Now you just spent 30k on some gear.


    Actually, all of it is silly advice.
    mtrycrafts

  8. #8
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    I have owned a Yamaha RXV 2095 HT Receiver for four years and have never been happy with it, especially when playing CDs. I always found the sound, although very clear and accurate,

    Then how can it not be realistic? Not possible.

    So I've been thinking about replacing it with either a Rotel 1075, or a Denon AVR 3805, maybe the 5803, but that is really beyond my budget, or a Yamaha RXV 2400. The first two sound much warmer too me.


    The way you compared them actually makes the most difference what you really heard or just perceived something not real.

    Modern components, amps, Cd are rather transparent. Your speakers, room acoustics and recording quality that matters the most.


    But, recently I got a Cassette Tape Deck for my system, so that I could play the 500 or so cassettes that I had put in storage. The deck, by the way, is a TEAC 860R. As soon as I played my first tape, I noticed a huge improvement in the sound. It sounded warmer, clearer, more like the music was being played in my living room.

    Yes, it can sound different. It has artifacts, phas shifts, hiss, distortion that is not on a CD. Different mastering, EQ, all makes it different. Maybe you just like those differences more.

    So here is my question: Is my problem, my receiver, or my CD Player?

    Neither. You have different likes and dislikes.


    I have a Yamaha CDC 775 (was top of line 4 years ago). And would it make sense to replace my CD Player instead of my Receiver and save a ton of money? Or is the problem in my head?

    Yes, it very well could be all in your head as your protocol is prone to tremendous bias causing unreliability of what you perceive and what reality is.
    mtrycrafts

  9. #9
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    Try this. On your new cassette deck, make a copy of a CD that you already own, listening to the output of the tape deck while you're recording. Does the sound of the CD player through the tape deck sound worse than the recording itself?
    Norm Strong [normanstrong@comcast.net]

  10. #10
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Just bought 10k speakers? well now you need 1k cables to support them.


    Nonsense. Absolute hogwash.

    Since your speakers are 10k, we must match them with a nice amp/preamp. Let's say 6k to be modest.

    More silly advice.


    Hmm, source needs an upgrade. turntable for 10k and DAC+transport for 5k. Oh man...since I have high end source, I should get some nice interconnects! well...there goes another several hundred...

    Now you just spent 30k on some gear.


    Actually, all of it is silly advice.
    I really think he was yanking your chain. At least I hope he was.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    I really think he was yanking your chain. At least I hope he was.
    No, I'm sure he was seroius. Just like me.

    I find that one needs to spend at least 10x the cost of the speakers, on the cables for the speakers. You would not believe what Bose 901s sound like with Nordost Valhalla cables. Wow!

    -Chris

  12. #12
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    Mtrycraft,
    it's a hypothetical situation.
    It's a fact that it happens. I'm not saying that it should, but it does.
    Everything is for a reason.

    I have no beef with you
    Stop getting on peoples case.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey N
    I have owned a Yamaha RXV 2095 HT Receiver for four years and have never been happy with it, especially when playing CDs. I always found the sound, although very clear and accurate, too bland, with no presence or liveness to it. So I've been thinking about replacing it with either a Rotel 1075, or a Denon AVR 3805, maybe the 5803, but that is really beyond my budget, or a Yamaha RXV 2400. The first two sound much warmer too me. The last one, frankly, I have not auditioned.

    But, recently I got a Cassette Tape Deck for my system, so that I could play the 500 or so cassettes that I had put in storage. The deck, by the way, is a TEAC 860R. As soon as I played my first tape, I noticed a huge improvement in the sound. It sounded warmer, clearer, more like the music was being played in my living room.

    So here is my question: Is my problem, my receiver, or my CD Player? I have a Yamaha CDC 775 (was top of line 4 years ago). And would it make sense to replace my CD Player instead of my Receiver and save a ton of money? Or is the problem in my head?

    Thanks for your responses.

    Jeffrey N, Toronto.


    Jeffrey,
    Are you using a digital connection or the analog? Try each and see if you can hear a diiference. I've noticed on some equipment, that the sound is actually better if you void the digital connection and go with the analog. Especially on a cd player.

  14. #14
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    You're comparing a cassette tape to a cd?

    Without getting into a preference situation, which is really the case, let me just say that cassettes are not exactly the most accurate manner of saving music. CD's may be more accurate yet not to your liking.

    Vinyl, while theoretically less accurate than CD's is preferred by many. Actually, you can fine tune the sound of yout TT by swapping cartridges to get the sound you want.

    Likewise tubes are a preference as well. And speakers are the most guilty of all.

    This in itself is not a bad thing. Euphonics make this whole hobby go around.

    Go for whatever pleases you.

    As far as CD sound goes, players can be designed to have a distinctive sound but I would expect most would shoot for an accurate, flat sound, which just might be the issue here. Do I sense a vinyl junkie in the making?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    I really think he was yanking your chain. At least I hope he was.

    Well, I read it several times to see how it was implied. I may have taken him wrong?
    mtrycrafts

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92135011
    Mtrycraft,
    it's a hypothetical situation.
    It's a fact that it happens. I'm not saying that it should, but it does.
    Everything is for a reason.

    I have no beef with you
    Stop getting on peoples case.

    Ah, it happens. But you seem to repeat what happens instead of correcting an audio myth that this is how it must be. What is one to read if not written?
    mtrycrafts

  17. #17
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    Couple of personal observations on CD players:

    Firstly I have observed a difference in sound between players. I cant tell you what is better or worse - merely which sound I prefered. The most enjoyable CD player I have ever heard is the old Meridian 508 20 bit CD player. A friend has this unit and I regard it as the best item in his system. Funnily enough he tried the newer version a while ago (588?) and prefers his old one. I got to hear both - side by side for an afternoon and very much concured with his choice.

    This was against expectation of course. I had, till then worked on the theory that the newer the DACs the better the sound - not always the case to my ears it seems.

    Conversely I own a Marantz CD6000. This is a decent, but nothing special, CD player that I have owned for a number of years. Recently I picked up a $70 DVD player - just because my old Denon 3000 is a bit long in the tooth and for the money I reckoned you couldnt go wrong. Would you believe I prefer the sound from this unit over both the Denon and the Marantz? I told an audiophile friend this and of course he didnt beleive a word of it. He came round - listened, agreed with my assessment and went and bought one for himself. His long serving CD player is an old Top of the range Pioneer. After some trials he reckons the new player is better than that too.

    Weird!! Just no way of telling other than to try it out for yourself. Logically a $70 POS DVD player should sound like crap - but it doesnt. We did a simple blind test on my wife and she prefered the cheapo unit over the Marantz too. I wont detail the testing - I dont think it would pass any muster scientifically but it was enough for me...

    YMMV - but always check out the cheapo units first - their sound can be a revelation...

  18. #18
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    I have to disagree with your point on the need to up-grade everything simply because a person bought $10,000 speakers. Simply not true!
    Remember, different isn't always better, but it is different.
    Keep things as simple as possible, but not too simple.
    Let your ears decide for you!

  19. #19
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    Can your CD Player make a difference?

    Thank you for all your thoughtful responses.

    After reviewing them, it has become clear to me that my problem is that I truly enjoy the analogue sound found in tapes and vinyl. Trouble is, I prefer the CD as a sound storage medium.

    Guess only thing left for me to do is wait for some bright sound engineer to figure out how to make CDs and other digital sources sound like analogue sources.

    I will do something else as well. I will follow the example of that person who bought an old CD player likely to be less digital sounding.

    What I plan to do, specifically, is go out and buy a not too old Technics CD Player with MASH technology and a TosLink (if possible), so I do have analogue and digital connection options.

    I recall that when the MASH technology first came out, certain audio critics were raving about it. I have always found Panasonic/Techics products to sound warmer than the Yamaha machines that I have.

    So I will give the "warm and fuzzy" Technics a try, having tired of "cold and precise" Yamaha.

    Any responses to this?

    Anyway, I will let you know if I like the sound better.

    And no, for those who did not take me seriously, I was perfectly serious about what I liked and did not like about my system.

    Jeffrey N, Toronto

  20. #20
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    Bturk, I'll say once again...
    It is a hypothetical situation
    It happens that its a fact. Im not suggesting that it should.
    Just that if you get caught up in the upgrading, You will end up spending 30k.
    So the point is not to get caught up.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxg
    Weird!! Just no way of telling other than to try it out for yourself. Logically a $70 POS DVD player should sound like crap - but it doesnt. We did a simple blind test on my wife and she prefered the cheapo unit over the Marantz too. I wont detail the testing - I dont think it would pass any muster scientifically but it was enough for me...

    Not weird at all. The $ensible $ound did a DBT with an $80 RCA multi disc player and ones costing $1000s. No difference better than chance.
    mtrycrafts

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Not weird at all. The $ensible $ound did a DBT with an $80 RCA multi disc player and ones costing $1000s.
    Would you mind linking to where you read that? I did several searches on their site under "dbt", "double blind test", "rca cd changer" and was unable to find your reference.

    rw

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Would you mind linking to where you read that? I did several searches on their site under "dbt", "double blind test", "rca cd changer" and was unable to find your reference.

    rw
    I assume he is referring to the #74 April/May 1999 issue where Sensible Sound reviewed the RCA RP-8065. I don't think this article is available on the web.

    -Chris

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by WmAx
    I assume he is referring to the #74 April/May 1999 issue where Sensible Sound reviewed the RCA RP-8065. I don't think this article is available on the web.

    -Chris
    Yes, that is the one, but it doesn't meet his criteria for a DBT, yet he has never cited one that does, especially showing audible differences. LOL.
    mtrycrafts

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Yes, that is the one, but it doesn't meet his criteria for a DBT
    If the "he" is me, what criteria would that be?


    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    ... yet he has never cited one that does, especially showing audible differences. LOL.
    If you recall, and you don't very well, I found the Tag McLaren reference to be credible because unlike EVERY OTHER REFERENCE of yours, they actually provided details as to the specifics of the test including both hardware and software. The only way to evaluate ANY test is to have knowledge of that which is being tested. Otherwise, you are relying on blind faith. Gee, isn't that what you accuse others of?

    rw

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