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  1. #26
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    Well, let's see if I can bring this thread back on track. As for my poor attempt at humor, and my lack of knowledge that "skeptic" and "sceptic" are acceptable spellings for the same word, I sincerely apologize and admit my error.

    As for the rest of the comments on this thread, save those from LivinDaBlues, why is it that none of you can accept that I do hear these things I'm stating, and that maybe I just may have a point here (as many others elsewhere do), and that I'm not just imagining things? I've been around long enough to know the difference between simply adjusting myself to the sound of my system, or to legitimate changes - good or bad - over a period of time. While audio memory is notoriously short, there exists the very real fact and sensation that when listening to a favorite piece of music, and hearing certain details and/or instruments that I didn't hear previously, then something is making a difference.

    I didn't invent the term 'burn-in," and I didn't give it much credence at first. My first experiencee with the phenomenon was with a set of very costly Audioquest speaker cables. Initially, I found the sound harsh and unpleasant, but noticed a "softening," or "sweetening" of the sound over time. Only when questioning folks at Audioquest did I realize that the cables were "burning-in,"

    Now that I've had the same piece of equipment in my system for almost a year (The Marantz SA-8001), and am hearing sonic details that were either missing, or obscured previously, I attribute that to the unit having sufficiently burned-in over time as per statements directly from Marantz. Any and everyone is entitled to agree or disagree with me, but for heaven's sake, please stop telling me I'm imagining all this, and basically out of my mind. I may be 64, but I've still got a good chuck of that mind left.

  2. #27
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    It's because no one has offered a good scientific reason for solid state components "burning in". What exactly is "burning in" on these devices? The chips? The transistors? The internal wiring? I agree with others who feel that you're probably just becoming more accustomed to the device's sound. It's believable that a device might take a bit to reach peak operating temperature...but for the device to actually somehow become physically altered to produce improved sound after several hundred hours? I haven't heard any real evidence to that.

    Really, any manufacturer of many products is going to tell you there's a burn in period with your new purchase. It's so you don't immediately think, "Oh, this sounds no good," and return it soon after. They want to make sure you take the time to get used to it. I remember when I bought my last car they said there was a "break in" period. TVs supposedly have a break in period too.

    But if you're enjoying your system more, that's all that really matters in the end.

  3. #28
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    Cars have many moving parts, and the engine definitely has a break-in period. It's not a good example.

  4. #29
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    That I do get...I'm just saying the dealer went out of their way to mention that. I think it's a tactic they use to get people to not be dissatisfied if they immediately don't like the performance of their purchase.

    And, as pointed out before, other than the laser, how many moving parts are in a CD transport?

  5. #30
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by emaidel
    Well, let's see if I can bring this thread back on track. As for my poor attempt at humor, and my lack of knowledge that "skeptic" and "sceptic" are acceptable spellings for the same word, I sincerely apologize and admit my error.

    As for the rest of the comments on this thread, save those from LivinDaBlues, why is it that none of you can accept that I do hear these things I'm stating, and that maybe I just may have a point here (as many others elsewhere do), and that I'm not just imagining things? I've been around long enough to know the difference between simply adjusting myself to the sound of my system, or to legitimate changes - good or bad - over a period of time. While audio memory is notoriously short, there exists the very real fact and sensation that when listening to a favorite piece of music, and hearing certain details and/or instruments that I didn't hear previously, then something is making a difference.

    I didn't invent the term 'burn-in," and I didn't give it much credence at first. My first experiencee with the phenomenon was with a set of very costly Audioquest speaker cables. Initially, I found the sound harsh and unpleasant, but noticed a "softening," or "sweetening" of the sound over time. Only when questioning folks at Audioquest did I realize that the cables were "burning-in,"

    Now that I've had the same piece of equipment in my system for almost a year (The Marantz SA-8001), and am hearing sonic details that were either missing, or obscured previously, I attribute that to the unit having sufficiently burned-in over time as per statements directly from Marantz. Any and everyone is entitled to agree or disagree with me, but for heaven's sake, please stop telling me I'm imagining all this, and basically out of my mind. I may be 64, but I've still got a good chuck of that mind left.
    One thing I should clarify is that getting more in tune with the sound of your system over time is not the same as 'imagining a difference'... it doesn't mean you're losing your mind...

    It's like a job... at first you might be totally overwhelmed by the amount of work, but a year later, you might be able to handle all those responsibilities without breaking a sweat.. It's not that the work changed, but that you got better at doing at...

    I believe some part of burn-in is not about the equipment burning in, but you burning in (so to speak)... So on first listen, there is no way you could have heard all the detail the system was offering, but a year down the road, you can pick up all those minor details you were missing out on...

    I think of it kind of like E-Stat's audiophile test.... the first time I tried it, I got the average score of -12db, but after a bit of practice I was down into the - twenties...

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by emaidel
    As for the rest of the comments on this thread, save those from LivinDaBlues, why is it that none of you can accept that I do hear these things I'm stating, and that maybe I just may have a point here (as many others elsewhere do), and that I'm not just imagining things? I've been around long enough to know the difference between simply adjusting myself to the sound of my system, or to legitimate changes - good or bad - over a period of time. While audio memory is notoriously short, there exists the very real fact and sensation that when listening to a favorite piece of music, and hearing certain details and/or instruments that I didn't hear previously, then something is making a difference..
    I can appreciate your comments. But I would like to point out something in relation to your last statement. Your statement is in no way different that this statement. I LOVE "National Lampoons Christmas Vacation". I've seen it probably 20 times. Watch it every year with the family, and everyone has a hoot. Just this year, I realized that Hank (Chevy Chase's cousin in the film) is wearing a black dickie under his white sweater. Now, I've seen this film 20 times. Never noticed it. Should I profess that now my DVD player has "burnt in" enough that now it has made a new scene in the film? Would you support that asertation? Probably not. And I am not going to entertain the notion that after 300 hours, your SACD/CD player is suddenly producing new sounds.

    It has always been there. But after repeated listens, you no longer notice what is in the forefront of the piece. You are comfortable in the music, that your mind now has time to wander, and pick up subtle sounds that were either missed, or forgotten from other listens.

    Quote Originally Posted by emaidel
    I didn't invent the term 'burn-in," and I didn't give it much credence at first. My first experiencee with the phenomenon was with a set of very costly Audioquest speaker cables. Initially, I found the sound harsh and unpleasant, but noticed a "softening," or "sweetening" of the sound over time. Only when questioning folks at Audioquest did I realize that the cables were "burning-in,".
    It was invented to keep picky audophiles out of the store long enough to exhasust the 30-90 day return policy.

    Cables don't "burn in". Thats like saying my lamps burn brighter after 200 hours because the cord is more "accustomed" to electricity passing through. It's bunk.


    Quote Originally Posted by emaidel
    Now that I've had the same piece of equipment in my system for almost a year (The Marantz SA-8001), and am hearing sonic details that were either missing, or obscured previously, I attribute that to the unit having sufficiently burned-in over time as per statements directly from Marantz. Any and everyone is entitled to agree or disagree with me, but for heaven's sake, please stop telling me I'm imagining all this, and basically out of my mind. I may be 64, but I've still got a good chuck of that mind left.
    Your not out of your mind. Belive what you will. I've already stated earlier that I would entertain the notion that speakers can/do change their reproduction capabilites over time as they age, and are used. But wire/solid state components/lasters DON'T. Your 300 hour example has less to do with "burn in" as you "buying in" to the salesmans snake oil.

    I'm glad however, that you are enjoying your music. That is what it is all about. That, and polite debate. Good day sir.
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  7. #32
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Do I buy this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    One thing I should clarify is that getting more in tune with the sound of your system over time is not the same as 'imagining a difference'... it doesn't mean you're losing your mind...

    I believe some part of burn-in is not about the equipment burning in, but you burning in (so to speak)... So on first listen, there is no way you could have heard all the detail the system was offering, but a year down the road, you can pick up all those minor details you were missing out on...
    ...
    The theory that we accomodate ourselves to the characterist sound of our system is just that: a theory. Perhaps it is a testable hypothesis though I'm not a scientist and can't think of how to design a relevant, DBT-type experiment. However I suspect it would be about as difficult as for burn-in.

    There are times when I've been pretty sure that I heard burn it. One of the more obvious was the case of brand new vacuum tubes -- definitely (it seemed to me) a big difference after a dozen hours or so.

    The lengthiest burn in that I believe I heard was from my Panasonic SR-AX25 receiver which as at least 500 hours. I have never noticed any burn-in on cables; (in fact, I have rarely notice any sort of differences among cables in the low- to high-medium price range, Blue Jeans cable versus Kimber PBJ for instance).

  8. #33
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    The theory that we accomodate ourselves to the characterist sound of our system is just that: a theory. Perhaps it is a testable hypothesis though I'm not a scientist and can't think of how to design a relevant, DBT-type experiment. However I suspect it would be about as difficult as for burn-in.

    There are times when I've been pretty sure that I heard burn it. One of the more obvious was the case of brand new vacuum tubes -- definitely (it seemed to me) a big difference after a dozen hours or so.

    The lengthiest burn in that I believe I heard was from my Panasonic SR-AX25 receiver which as at least 500 hours. I have never noticed any burn-in on cables; (in fact, I have rarely notice any sort of differences among cables in the low- to high-medium price range, Blue Jeans cable versus Kimber PBJ for instance).
    The reason we can debate burn in is because this is all theory anyway...

    Groundbeef made an excellent point about the DVD... why do we assume burn in with audio electronics but not for TVs and DVD players? I've never seen an improvement on a TV or DVD over time (I have seen them get worse, however)...

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by emaidel
    Now that I've had the same piece of equipment in my system for almost a year (The Marantz SA-8001), and am hearing sonic details that were either missing, or obscured previously, I attribute that to the unit having sufficiently burned-in over time as per statements directly from Marantz. Any and everyone is entitled to agree or disagree with me, but for heaven's sake, please stop telling me I'm imagining all this, and basically out of my mind. I may be 64, but I've still got a good chuck of that mind left.
    I'm not saying you're crazy, I'm just saying your mind is playing tricks on you. My mind plays tricks on me, too and I'm only 20. But if you would read my first post in this thread, it explains that a SACD player isn't going to sound any different unless it's broken/faulty. That's one of the huge advantages of digital devices. If you would take a moment and understand how these devices work, you would understand that. Perhaps you did hear something different, but to say that the cause of the change is a sacd player burning-in is an invalid and unsound argument. Either something else in your system changed or you changed. I notice this with most "audiophiles" including my dad, and even myself sometimes. Example. He buys a new piece of equipment, say a receiver, and hooks it up for the first time. He wants the purchase to be worth his money, so within 3 minutes of listening to it, he'll say something like "wow that sounds a lot warmer. Almost like we put new tweeters in the speakers." Where I don't notice much of a difference, and may not even notice that there was a new receiver added to the system unless I saw it. I'm fully aware of the psychological effect of getting something new and wanting to like it, so your mind invents things to reinforce your need for the newly bought equipment. It happens to everyone, consciously or unconsciously (most audiophiles in my opinion). And just because a manufacturer tells you something, it doesn't mean it is completely true. These companies also put a lot of money in marketing, too. Cables do Not need burn-in, the buyers of expensive cables need burn- in. Don't worry, this happens to a lot of people that are passionate about audio. And you also can't forget, your ears are just going to keep getting worse and worse as you age.

  10. #35
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Maybe not

    Quote Originally Posted by This Guy
    I'm not saying you're crazy, I'm just saying your mind is playing tricks on you. My mind plays tricks on me, too and I'm only 20. ...
    It's because you're only 20.

    Quote Originally Posted by This Guy
    ...But if you would read my first post in this thread, it explains that a SACD player isn't going to sound any different unless it's broken/faulty. That's one of the huge advantages of digital devices. If you would take a moment and understand how these devices work, you would understand that. ...
    Guy, emaidel isn't saying that the digital logic burns in. More likely it would be the analog circuitry. Given that the Marantz has different signal paths for CD and SACD, there will be analog differences. Consider that:
    1. All wires and circuit board connections are analog;
    2. Chips receive only analog signals and must construct bits from the analog. The process might not work perfectly by dropping bits (rare) or causing jitter (more common);
    3. Chips output only analog voltage/current.
    It has been explained to me that wire can more or less subtly change their transmission specifications due to changes in the diaelectic properties on the surrounding insulation (for example) which changes over time and depending on the direction of current flow. I can't explain this further, but AudioQuest's cable theory discussion might be helpful.

  11. #36
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    Actually...

    Quote Originally Posted by Groundbeef
    Cables don't "burn in". Thats like saying my lamps burn brighter after 200 hours because the cord is more "accustomed" to electricity passing through. It's bunk.
    The physics of this example disprove your point. A lightbulb will measurably change over time. I suppose that this is true of tubes for the same reason. So for example, the bulb will have less brightness after x number of hours, and likewise the tube will have less edge to it after x number of hours as well. While the bulb loosing brightness is typically considered "deterioration", the tube loosing its edge is typically called "burn-in". In both cases, it's downhill from there, but for an audiophile, that may be an audibly acceptable, maybe even preferable. It's just a function of the equipment being worn over time. Just as there's no debate (at least I hope there isn't) over a phono cartridge being worn down by use, there shouldn't be any debate over the lightbulb or tube being worn down either.

    Now whether this is true for cables, and whether that is audible, I doubt it. I have a hard time even hearing differences between cables to begin with. Nonetheless, I wouldn't be surprised if a certain highly sensitive measurement was found that would indeed change in a cable over time, although I would still have a hard time believing that it was audible. I've been told that different materials like silver, affect the sound, and while I've never heard it, I don't have any reason to believe otherwise. With that in mind, different materials have very different properties (and as someone mentioned, half-lifes), so it follows that the sound of these could very well change over time as well. But, I've never heard this.

    In any case, if it isn't audible to me or any one else, then why split hairs over that? And if emaidel hears a difference, then that's all fine for him. The physics support the theory that sound can change in a component, even a CD player. Whether this is audible is impossible to debate since we will never know without actually being inside the brain of someone who does hear it, and that is physically impossible. To borrow from my college logic class: I know that it is possible, but I have yet to experience it and I could very well never experience it. However, that does not mean it's impossible.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    The physics of this example disprove your point. A lightbulb will measurably change over time. I suppose that this is true of tubes for the same reason. So for example, the bulb will have less brightness after x number of hours, and likewise the tube will have less edge to it after x number of hours as well. While the bulb loosing brightness is typically considered "deterioration", the tube loosing its edge is typically called "burn-in". In both cases, it's downhill from there, but for an audiophile, that may be an audibly acceptable, maybe even preferable. It's just a function of the equipment being worn over time. Just as there's no debate (at least I hope there isn't) over a phono cartridge being worn down by use, there shouldn't be any debate over the lightbulb or tube being worn down either.

    Now whether this is true for cables, and whether that is audible, I doubt it. I have a hard time even hearing differences between cables to begin with. Nonetheless, I wouldn't be surprised if a certain highly sensitive measurement was found that would indeed change in a cable over time, although I would still have a hard time believing that it was audible. I've been told that different materials like silver, affect the sound, and while I've never heard it, I don't have any reason to believe otherwise. With that in mind, different materials have very different properties (and as someone mentioned, half-lifes), so it follows that the sound of these could very well change over time as well. But, I've never heard this.

    In any case, if it isn't audible to me or any one else, then why split hairs over that? And if emaidel hears a difference, then that's all fine for him. The physics support the theory that sound can change in a component, even a CD player. Whether this is audible is impossible to debate since we will never know without actually being inside the brain of someone who does hear it, and that is physically impossible. To borrow from my college logic class: I know that it is possible, but I have yet to experience it and I could very well never experience it. However, that does not mean it's impossible.
    Hmmm... interesting theory and it actually seems plausible.... I'm interpreting your comments to mean that burn in is not actually the improvement in performance of a component over time, but is actually a deterioration due to normal wear and tear that is often preferred by audiophiles...

    So kind of like buying a new pair of shoes... at first they may feel too stiff and uncomfortable, but with regular use they deteriorate first to the point of being extremely comfortable and eventually until they are useless..

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    So kind of like buying a new pair of shoes... at first they may feel too stiff and uncomfortable, but with regular use they deteriorate first to the point of being extremely comfortable and eventually until they are useless..
    I just bought new shoes...I'll get back to ya on my findings.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    The physics of this example disprove your point. A lightbulb will measurably change over time. I suppose that this is true of tubes for the same reason. So for example, the bulb will have less brightness after x number of hours, and likewise the tube will have less edge to it after x number of hours as well. While the bulb loosing brightness is typically considered "deterioration", the tube loosing its edge is typically called "burn-in". In both cases, it's downhill from there, but for an audiophile, that may be an audibly acceptable, maybe even preferable.
    Actually, you are reading more into my post than I expected. The example is not about the lightbulb. You are correct in that a lightbulb is on a 100% slope to total uselessness upon being lit up for the 1st time.

    My arguement was on the actual wire bringing the current to the bulb itself.

    If you have read all of my posts, you will see that I have been very careful on what I am talking about. I have stated numerous times, that I would entertain suggestions that over time, speakers evolve through use.

    And, I would even go as far to entertain the possiblity that a tube could in-fact change the sound characteristics over time.

    However, that is where I draw the line. With an analog source (record player, tube amp) there are lots of things that can affect the sound. Worn needle, old tube, new tube. But with a digital source such as a CD/DVD/SACD, what you get on day one is what you get on hour 300, or 3000. This is of course not including DVD/CD rot. But in that case, you are losing digital bits, not increasing.

    The point of the OP was that his digital source had "burnt in". And after "burn in" his SACD/CD player is now playing more sounds than initially on the first play. And that is baloney. A digitial signal is either "on" or "off". Its not "halfway there", "all the way there after burn in".

    That would be like suggesting that my casio digital watch tells better time after 300 hours because the circuitry has figured out a way to better channel the electrons from the battery to the cpu inside.

    Or, in my instance, that my lamps look better after 300 hours of use because the cables are now used to carrying power.
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  15. #40
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    Well let's make this even simpler, let's isolate the discussion to just the part that handles the bits, that is the DAC. Even this component has analog parts like capacitors that do change over time, as LDB correctly pointed out. There is no doubt in my mind that this is measureable with extremely sensitive equipment.

    Whether it's audible is a matter of endless debate. Who knows, maybe emaidel's genetic code was blessed with bat-like hearing and the rest of us grunts got the standard issue. We simply will never know.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    ...
    Who knows, maybe emaidel's genetic code was blessed with bat-like hearing and the rest of us grunts got the standard issue. We simply will never know.
    I love the choice of words
    Last edited by audio amateur; 02-12-2009 at 03:51 PM.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Who knows, maybe emaidel's genetic code was blessed with bat-like hearing and the rest of us grunts got the standard issue. We simply will never know.
    I think in another thread he noted that he sleeps hanging from the ceiling....
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by emaidel
    ... why is it that none of you can accept that I do hear these things I'm stating, and that maybe I just may have a point here (as many others elsewhere do), and that I'm not just imagining things? I've been around long enough to know the difference between simply adjusting myself to the sound of my system, or to legitimate changes - good or bad - over a period of time. While audio memory is notoriously short, there exists the very real fact and sensation that when listening to a favorite piece of music, and hearing certain details and/or instruments that I didn't hear previously, then something is making a difference.
    I'm with you. I don't obsess over break in effects, but have experienced them. The most recent example was when I replaced the cable between CD transport and DAC from an old Monster cable to a super wide bandwidth video cable sold by Blue Jeans. Initially, it was intolerably bright. I may have a slightly different perspective in that I have three systems and don't have to rely on any one as a point of reference. I can instantly compare one to another. I temporarily replaced the main transport with a spare cheapo Toshiba DVD player and let it spin a disk unattended to the DAC for about a week or so. That did the trick.

    There is a retired engineer over at AA who goes by the moniker of Bold Eagle who coined the term "non-bright, non-loud" to denote what he believes is the audio truth. I agree and had the pleasure of meeting him and spending a most enjoyable evening at his house when business took me to Ohio where he lives. Whether we're talking audio or video, I find that the majority of folks I know prefer an exaggerated "technicolor" version of the truth. The very best examples of either I've experienced are at first blush most unimpressive. They are simply natural. No sizzling highs or vivid reds. Subtlety is the order of the day.

    rw

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groundbeef
    It was invented to keep picky audophiles out of the store long enough to exhasust the 30-90 day return policy...........(then Nightflier adds..maybe emaidel's genetic code was blessed with bat-like hearing and the rest of us grunts got the standard issue)..........I think in another thread he noted that he sleeps hanging from the ceiling
    LMAO, really hard!

    Don't really think it is possible to prove or disprove the break-in theory in this case from subjective opinions. I'll wait for an objective test that can prove the changes over time by measurable data. In the meantime I'm not going to hold my breath. IMO those who claim to have the experience and precision hearing to detect the changes also have the most active imaginations.

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  20. #45
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    Question Burn-in is nearly always positive

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I'm with you. I don't obsess over break in effects, but have experienced them. The most recent example was when I replaced the cable between CD transport and DAC from an old Monster cable to a super wide bandwidth video cable sold by Blue Jeans. Initially, it was intolerably bright. I may have a slightly different perspective in that I have three systems and don't have to rely on any one as a point of reference. I can instantly compare one to another. I temporarily replaced the main transport with a spare cheapo Toshiba DVD player and let it spin a disk unattended to the DAC for about a week or so. That did the trick.
    Why is that burn-in is nearly always positive and the process stops stone dead when device owner is finally very satisfied with the sound?
    It's a listening test, you do not need to see it to listen to it!

  21. #46
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    I'm fairly convinced that burn-in is genuine in regard to speakers. Its quite plausible that new speaker cones may be a bit stiff, and need a bit of usage before they loosen up and sound their best. I'm less convinced about burn-in with electronic components though, and completely sceptical about the idea of it applying to cables.
    All we are saying, is give peas a chance.

  22. #47
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    Well, let me see now that I've climbed back upright from my hanging perch inside my cave what all of this boils down to. Rather than eviscerate me by stating that my belief that I'm hearing improvements from my SACD player over time by saying that it's "pure B.S." or "bunk," or "baloney," perhaps it would be somewhat more politic to say that those of you who feel I'm not hearing what I believe I am hearing simply feel otherwise and dispense with the slurs.

    If any of you choose to believe that burn-in is a non-existent phenomena, then that's fine. Just don't blast me, or others, who feel otherwise. The entire purpose of this thread was to state that my SACD player sounds better now than it did when I first connected it. Those are my observations, and I chose to share them with members of this forum. This is a forum of people who share great enthusiasm for audio, and the components that bring us sonic pleasure in our homes. Rarely have people unanimously agreed on anything in this industry, and opinions have always run from one extreme to another. If one disagrees, then it's best to say simply, 'I disagree," and leave it at that.

  23. #48
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by emaidel
    Well, let me see now that I've climbed back upright from my hanging perch inside my cave what all of this boils down to. Rather than eviscerate me by stating that my belief that I'm hearing improvements from my SACD player over time by saying that it's "pure B.S." or "bunk," or "baloney," perhaps it would be somewhat more politic to say that those of you who feel I'm not hearing what I believe I am hearing simply feel otherwise and dispense with the slurs.

    If any of you choose to believe that burn-in is a non-existent phenomena, then that's fine. Just don't blast me, or others, who feel otherwise. The entire purpose of this thread was to state that my SACD player sounds better now than it did when I first connected it. Those are my observations, and I chose to share them with members of this forum. This is a forum of people who share great enthusiasm for audio, and the components that bring us sonic pleasure in our homes. Rarely have people unanimously agreed on anything in this industry, and opinions have always run from one extreme to another. If one disagrees, then it's best to say simply, 'I disagree," and leave it at that.
    You can't prove burn in exists, but neither can anyone prove it doesn't... so we really should keep this debate civil...

    Anyway, the important fact is that you are clearly happier with the Marantz now then when you first bought it... It's always good to see an audiophile/enthusiast really just enjoying a purchase, instead of immediately wanting to upgrade it....

    If I hadn't gone down the Music Server route, the Marantz SA8001 would definitely have been my CD/SACD Player...

    I kind of hope that for the Model after the SA8003, Marantz includes the optical input now on the SA15S2 (and hopefully a coaxial as well)... Having Digital inputs on the 8001 is about the only thing that could have made it even more of a bargain... (well, that or stuffing the disc draw with $100 bills)...

  24. #49
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    You can't prove burn in exists, but neither can anyone prove it doesn't... so we really should keep this debate civil...
    There is measurement equipment sensitive enough to to determine whether or not the signal changes over time. The performance over time of many of the components used in systems is well understood by manufacturers who do accelerated testing as part of their quality assurance processes. I believe we could get to the bottom of this if we were sufficiently determined.

    Even though I've not done the measurements,I have to say that circuit theory, physics and manufacturer specifications do not predict a burn-in effect in modern solid-state electronics on the 200-300 hour timescale that you're talking about.

    Is that sufficiently civil?

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by emaidel
    Well, let me see now that I've climbed back upright from my hanging perch inside my cave what all of this boils down to. Rather than eviscerate me by stating that my belief that I'm hearing improvements from my SACD player over time by saying that it's "pure B.S." or "bunk," or "baloney," perhaps it would be somewhat more politic to say that those of you who feel I'm not hearing what I believe I am hearing simply feel otherwise and dispense with the slurs.

    If any of you choose to believe that burn-in is a non-existent phenomena, then that's fine. Just don't blast me, or others, who feel otherwise. The entire purpose of this thread was to state that my SACD player sounds better now than it did when I first connected it. Those are my observations, and I chose to share them with members of this forum. This is a forum of people who share great enthusiasm for audio, and the components that bring us sonic pleasure in our homes. Rarely have people unanimously agreed on anything in this industry, and opinions have always run from one extreme to another. If one disagrees, then it's best to say simply, 'I disagree," and leave it at that.
    Emaidel:

    Your title of "Burn-in time: it's no joke" was enough to drag me in. If you feel that your equipment is working better after time, I am happy that you are enjoying it better now than initially.

    However, that doesn't "prove" that burn in is a real action.

    As I have pointed out, why don't DVD's show more detail, or produce new scenes as they are used more often? Shouldn't "burn-in" be supported in video, as well as audio?

    As asked by another poster, why does "burn in" suddenly stop at just the right time, for every beliver of the theory. Why are not audio boards lit up with stories of audiophiles disappointed that after "burn in" the equipment doesn't sound better, or perhaps even worse? Why is "burn-in" a wholly positive action? And why does it suddenly stop? Wouldn't one think that it continues with more use?

    And finally, as far as civil discourse goes (with the exception of the grammer/spelling police) this thread that been nothing but civil. You ought to check out HDTV threads if you want to see some fireworks.

    Simply saying "I disagree" gives absolutely no credence to my opinion. Just as you imply that your subjective, anecdotal experience is a substitute for facts, I am entitled to offer mine. As I, and others have stated, if you are happy with the performance of your equipment now, we are happy for you.

    But to pass it off as the work of "burn in" is baloney. In my opinon.
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