Audiophiles beware, the other senses are more connected than you think.

[Feanor]

Mr. Peabody, I don't like majoring in minors. I chose a well built cable that sounded neutral to my ears, degraded the signal the least among those I measured, and was reasonably priced. With all of the cables I heard, none had a bright sound or dark sound, just varying degrees of resolution and that is it. The point I am making is it took a NC-20 room, speaker/room interactions corrected to -+1 from 40-20khz, a extremely quiet amp and pre-amp to hear these very subtle difference. I highly doubt that anyone can hear these subtle differences on a less than $5000 dollar two channel system setup in their living room. Most here do not tackle room acoustics(too complicated), don't have the signal chain to reveal these differences, nor do they have a room quiet enough. If a piece of cable is taking your system to a new level, the old cables were probably not up to snuff. The differences between cables are not night and day, but profoundly subtle if they are well made.
...

So you admit you hear differences on the subjective level, albeit you hear these differences under rigorously controlled conditions. Also you admit that these subjective sound differences are a factor, (along with measurement), in you choice of cable. Can you personally usually correctly identify your chosen vs. rejected cables in blind testing?

I think you do audiophiles here too little credit implying that they are deceiving themselves about sound differences. Carefully controlling listening conditions might ensure more accurate results but certainly various people here have equipment that has the resolution to make differences audible. Furthermore from personal, granted, subjective experience I can hear sound difference anywhere in the audio chain regardless of whether the changes being auditioned at strong or a weak point in the chain.

For my part, I have consistently advised that cable differences are very small and that most people, i.e. those with entry to mid-range equipment, ought to buy reliable, cheap cables, (e.g. Blue Jeans Cable), and spend the difference on improving other components. This is rational advice, but though cables can be overpriced, (they have the highest markups of all components), they are usually cheaper than the components and there is a temptation to look there for improvements.

[JohnMichael]

I am very used to my system in my room and that familiarity helps me determine what cable works best. My system is purist in that there is no signal processing and I listen more near field.

[Mr Peabody]

JM, I think you make a very important point about familiarity, in comparing cables or components in a system I still think we will be able to do that but it is even more evident in our own systems where we are familiar with the responses and character we normally hear each day.

I'm not so sure visual influences as much as it is a distraction. Many of my "audiophile" friends do their main listening in the dark as I do. I also notice that I don't like the TV screen on while I listen. As a teen we used to watch sports on TV with the sound down and listen to the stereo. Unless we rent a movie I seldom watch TV. People can't understand how I can sit and listen to music and not have something else going on at the same time.

[Feanor]

Familiarity is a big factor. I use a range of familiar, high-quality recordings or recordings that have familiar specific attributes. (This is contrary to famous Norwitz/Qvortrup "Are You On The Road To... Audio Hell?" advice: see HERE. But that's 50% bunkum anyway)

I have often had the following sort of comparative experience. I compare A to B and hear little or no discernible difference; I compare B to C and likewise hear little difference. But comparing A to C I hear a distinct difference.

[Smokey]

For my part, I have consistently advised that cable differences are very small and that most people, i.e. those with entry to mid-range equipment, ought to buy reliable, cheap cables, (e.g. Blue Jeans Cable), and spend the difference on improving other components.

I would say that is a fair statement (albiet changing "cheap" with "quality"). But it also beg the question as what kind of advice would you give to those that have higher end systems regarding cables?

I mean, the function of cable will not change whether we have $100 system or $100,000 system

[Hyfi]

I would say that is a fair statement (albiet changing "cheap" with "quality"). But it also beg the question as what kind of advice would you give to those that have higher end systems regarding cables?

I mean, the function of cable will not change whether we have $100 system or $100,000 system

Until you actually hear a $100K system, you have no idea, except for what you read. The function itself does not change, but the different HE cables out there allow the owners of HE setups to fine tune the sound to "THEIR" desire, not what someone who has never heard a system like that's opinion.

[bfalls]

It's strange to see comments on ICs and speaker cables ranging from .5m+ From those arguing they may or may not hear a difference, yet in earlier threads state they could hear a difference using cryogenically-treated fuses in a component's power supply. You would think the effects of longer, multi-wire, constructed cables would have more potential for noticeable differences than a .5cm single pierce of wire outside the signal path. "Things that make you go hmmmmmmm."

It's much easier to follow Sir T's methodology. I believe different cables can electronically measure differently. The question is whether the differences can be heard significantly in the audio range.

[blackraven]

Mr. P hit the nail on the head stating the average person can't tell the subtle differences in high end. I think that you need to be a person who listens to music all the time and is in tune with the nuances.

Sir T, I agree that for the most part you need a high end system to be able to tell the differeces between cables. But, my son and I were easily able to tell the difference between a pair of BJC IC's and a pair of AudioQuest Corals in his system which consisted at the time of a Class D Audio CDA254 digital amp, a modded cheap Maverick Audio Tube Magic DAC/Preamp and a pair of PSB B6 speakers. The BJC's was too bright sounding while the AQ's were less bright and more pleasing with out sounding rolled off. The difference was not subtle. That system cost about $1300 and sounded awesome.

By the way. I do all my critical listening in the dark or with the lights down. I am more in tune to the music without visual distractions.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Mr. P hit the nail on the head stating the average person can't tell the subtle differences in high end. I think that you need to be a person who listens to music all the time and is in tune with the nuances.

Then the argument goes back to if the average listener cannot tell between high end, then how can they tell the differences between the cables that tie it together. The system (and room) itself is 98% of the experience, and the cables at best are 2%.

Sir T, I agree that for the most part you need a high end system to be able to tell the differeces between cables. But, my son and I were easily able to tell the difference between a pair of BJC IC's and a pair of AudioQuest Corals in his system which consisted at the time of a Class D Audio CDA254 digital amp, a modded cheap Maverick Audio Tube Magic DAC/Preamp and a pair of PSB B6 speakers. The BJC's was too bright sounding while the AQ's were less bright and more pleasing with out sounding rolled off. The difference was not subtle. That system cost about $1300 and sounded awesome.

This was probably a sighted test with all of the biases that go with it. Subjective listening test are not all that credible. Testing cables requires a much more rigorous listening process, and certainly needs equipment with better resolution than a $1300 dollar system can provide.

I have to say, any test made with equipment with tubes is automatically rejected. Too much seasoning added to the soup makes drastic changes its taste.

[blackraven]

Then the argument goes back to if the average listener cannot tell between high end, then how can they tell the differences between the cables that tie it together. The system (and room) itself is 98% of the experience, and the cables at best are 2%.



This was probably a sighted test with all of the biases that go with it. Subjective listening test are not all that credible. Testing cables requires a much more rigorous listening process, and certainly needs equipment with better resolution than a $1300 dollar system can provide.

I have to say, any test made with equipment with tubes is automatically rejected. Too much seasoning added to the soup makes drastic changes its taste.

I have to disagree with your comment about my son and I being biased. We did this without any preconceived notions about which cable would sound better. In fact, I swapped the cables without my son knowing that I had done so (although he did know that we were going to do the swap as some point). I was listening to the system with music that he was very familiar with and he walked into the room and he immediately said why does it sound so bright. He actually thought I swapped a tube as I had bought a couple of new tubes to try in his preamp.

You don't need a double blind test and a recording studio to be able to tell the difference between the 2 cables that we tested as the difference was not subtle. The BJC's were very fatiguing and bright while the AQ's were pleasing with no fatigue and a warmer sound.

And you should not be so quick to judge a system that you have not heard in person. That $1300 system is detailed with pretty good resolution, in fact it is astounding at how good it sounded. But you don't need excellent detail and resolution to hear the difference of a bright system and warm system and fatigue and non fatigue. Now if you want to listen for other nuances of cable differences then I am in total agreement with you.

It was an eye opening experience for me as I was a skeptic about cables sounding different.

[Smokey]

The function itself does not change, but the different HE cables out there allow the owners of HE setups to fine tune the sound to "THEIR" desire.

But fine tuning the sound is not function of cable. That will remain true whether we have low end or high end system

[JohnMichael]

But fine tuning the sound is not function of cable. That will remain true whether we have low end or high end system

But cables do tune a system. So if you buy a cable that makes your system sound bright you should just live with it? I would find a cable that makes my system sound balanced. Which I call tuning the system. I also find purchasing a new cable if the sound is bright than buying dark sounding amp just to use the much less expensive IC.

[Smokey]

But cables do tune a system. So if you buy a cable that makes your system sound bright you should just live with it? I would find a cable that makes my system sound balanced.

I would say that be a common sense approach assuming that all the audio (and sources) played on that system have same 'audio' quality and EQ biasing.

But since that will not be the case (as even each recordings have different EQ), then we should wonder as how cable is effecting different sound quaity. And we could never could figure that out if we are using cable to tame our system.

So the problem of cable as part of a puzzle to achieve more balance system will never be solved

[JohnMichael]

I would say that be a common sense approach assuming that all the audio (and sources) played on that system have same 'audio' quality and EQ biasing.

But since that will not be the case (as even each recordings have different EQ), then we should wonder as how cable is effecting different sound quaity. And we could never could figure that out if we are using cable to tame our system.

So the problem of cable as part of a puzzle to achieve more balance system will never be solved

Of course I disagree. With my choice of AQ IC's and speaker cables they let all the music present itself wonderfully with my selection of components and speakers.

[3db]

But cables do tune a system. So if you buy a cable that makes your system sound bright you should just live with it? I would find a cable that makes my system sound balanced. Which I call tuning the system. I also find purchasing a new cable if the sound is bright than buying dark sounding amp just to use the much less expensive IC.

Cables don't tune a system nearly as much as does seating position within the room and the room's acoustics. Most people in gross error try to go to tune using cables and interconnects then to fix the seating position and the room's acoustics. Cables/interconnects are sooo far down the affects list yet so many people in error put so much weight on them. I find this strangely amusing.

[Hyfi]

Cables don't tune a system nearly as much as does seating position within the room and the room's acoustics. Most people in gross error try to go to tune using cables and interconnects then to fix the seating position and the room's acoustics. Cables/interconnects are sooo far down the affects list yet so many people in error put so much weight on them. I find this strangely amusing.

Some people have done all they can do to their rooms and the way seating is setup. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a dedicated listening room where they can set all that up optimally so what is left? Tweaks and Cables.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

But cables do tune a system. So if you buy a cable that makes your system sound bright you should just live with it? I would find a cable that makes my system sound balanced. Which I call tuning the system. I also find purchasing a new cable if the sound is bright than buying dark sounding amp just to use the much less expensive IC.

Cables do not tune a system, and if one understands the function of cables they could not make this claim. If a cable sounds bright, get rid of it. If the cable sounds neutral and revealing, keep it. If you are interested in bright or dark sound(or anything in between), add EQ or add or remove acoustical panels, not cables.

Tuning requires a function of control...cables offer no controls which makes them to crude and unsuitable for tuning. Adapting the speakers to the room requires EQ and acoustical panels which do have controls.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

So you admit you hear differences on the subjective level, albeit you hear these differences under rigorously controlled conditions. Also you admit that these subjective sound differences are a factor, (along with measurement), in you choice of cable. Can you personally usually correctly identify your chosen vs. rejected cables in blind testing?

I would answer this question another way. Could I identify the well made cables from the poorly made ones? Absolutely. Could I distinguish which cables are which amongst the better made ones? Nope. Why, because unlike the yeasayers here, I listen through cables(not to) in a ultra quiet room, with tightly controlled acoustics, ultra clean power going into the system, on a hair north of half a million dollars worth of audio equipment that was designed from the ground up for critical listening(my music mixing studio). Can anyone here say this? So far, no!

The cables I chose sounded as neutral, uncolored, and transparent as a live voice going through a microphone, through the straight wire busses of my mixing board, and out of the speakers. There were other cables I measured and listened to that had similar qualities of the cables I chose, but they cost 10-15 times as much. The difference between the best cables, and the poorly made ones is subtle, but noticeable. However I would highly doubt those difference could be heard over a noisy room, over a system with at best medium resolution, or a room with poor acoustics like most folks living rooms.

I think you do audiophiles here too little credit implying that they are deceiving themselves about sound differences. Carefully controlling listening conditions might ensure more accurate results but certainly various people here have equipment that has the resolution to make differences audible. Furthermore from personal, granted, subjective experience I can hear sound difference anywhere in the audio chain regardless of whether the changes being auditioned at strong or a weak point in the chain.

Subjective differences without measurements are useless. Sorry Bill, but everyone has an opinion based on their own taste. When it comes to cables, I don't want to taste anything. Sorry, but I don't see any real audiophiles here. What I see are casual music listeners, and that is pretty much it.

For my part, I have consistently advised that cable differences are very small and that most people, i.e. those with entry to mid-range equipment, ought to buy reliable, cheap cables, (e.g. Blue Jeans Cable), and spend the difference on improving other components. This is rational advice, but though cables can be overpriced, (they have the highest markups of all components), they are usually cheaper than the components and there is a temptation to look there for improvements.

I think this is great advice...really!

I personally think this whole obsession with cables is stupid as he!!, and majors in minors profoundly. Why? Because the real issues are not wire, but the speaker/room interaction - an area that almost nobody here wants to touch because they don't understand much of anything about it. If you want to really hear the differences in cables(if there are any), then it would require a far more costly infrastructure and equipment than those who claim to hear differences have.