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Thread: Audiophiles beware, the other senses are more connected than you think.

  1. #26
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    JM, I think you make a very important point about familiarity, in comparing cables or components in a system I still think we will be able to do that but it is even more evident in our own systems where we are familiar with the responses and character we normally hear each day.

    I'm not so sure visual influences as much as it is a distraction. Many of my "audiophile" friends do their main listening in the dark as I do. I also notice that I don't like the TV screen on while I listen. As a teen we used to watch sports on TV with the sound down and listen to the stereo. Unless we rent a movie I seldom watch TV. People can't understand how I can sit and listen to music and not have something else going on at the same time.
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  2. #27
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Familiarity is a big factor. I use a range of familiar, high-quality recordings or recordings that have familiar specific attributes. (This is contrary to famous Norwitz/Qvortrup "Are You On The Road To... Audio Hell?" advice: see HERE. But that's 50% bunkum anyway)

    I have often had the following sort of comparative experience. I compare A to B and hear little or no discernible difference; I compare B to C and likewise hear little difference. But comparing A to C I hear a distinct difference.

  3. #28
    Suspended Smokey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    For my part, I have consistently advised that cable differences are very small and that most people, i.e. those with entry to mid-range equipment, ought to buy reliable, cheap cables, (e.g. Blue Jeans Cable), and spend the difference on improving other components.
    I would say that is a fair statement (albiet changing "cheap" with "quality"). But it also beg the question as what kind of advice would you give to those that have higher end systems regarding cables?

    I mean, the function of cable will not change whether we have $100 system or $100,000 system

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    I would say that is a fair statement (albiet changing "cheap" with "quality"). But it also beg the question as what kind of advice would you give to those that have higher end systems regarding cables?

    I mean, the function of cable will not change whether we have $100 system or $100,000 system
    Until you actually hear a $100K system, you have no idea, except for what you read. The function itself does not change, but the different HE cables out there allow the owners of HE setups to fine tune the sound to "THEIR" desire, not what someone who has never heard a system like that's opinion.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    Yet you directly referenced the quoted term with your response in post # 10.

    "Blind in this case..."

    Perhaps your comments had nothing to do with the quoted term.
    Wow!! Really? Where did I type DBT in this thread up until this point?

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    It's strange to see comments on ICs and speaker cables ranging from .5m+ From those arguing they may or may not hear a difference, yet in earlier threads state they could hear a difference using cryogenically-treated fuses in a component's power supply. You would think the effects of longer, multi-wire, constructed cables would have more potential for noticeable differences than a .5cm single pierce of wire outside the signal path. "Things that make you go hmmmmmmm."

    It's much easier to follow Sir T's methodology. I believe different cables can electronically measure differently. The question is whether the differences can be heard significantly in the audio range.

  7. #32
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Mr. P hit the nail on the head stating the average person can't tell the subtle differences in high end. I think that you need to be a person who listens to music all the time and is in tune with the nuances.

    Sir T, I agree that for the most part you need a high end system to be able to tell the differeces between cables. But, my son and I were easily able to tell the difference between a pair of BJC IC's and a pair of AudioQuest Corals in his system which consisted at the time of a Class D Audio CDA254 digital amp, a modded cheap Maverick Audio Tube Magic DAC/Preamp and a pair of PSB B6 speakers. The BJC's was too bright sounding while the AQ's were less bright and more pleasing with out sounding rolled off. The difference was not subtle. That system cost about $1300 and sounded awesome.

    By the way. I do all my critical listening in the dark or with the lights down. I am more in tune to the music without visual distractions.
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  8. #33
    Suspended Smokey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    The function itself does not change, but the different HE cables out there allow the owners of HE setups to fine tune the sound to "THEIR" desire.
    But fine tuning the sound is not function of cable. That will remain true whether we have low end or high end system

  9. #34
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    But fine tuning the sound is not function of cable. That will remain true whether we have low end or high end system

    But cables do tune a system. So if you buy a cable that makes your system sound bright you should just live with it? I would find a cable that makes my system sound balanced. Which I call tuning the system. I also find purchasing a new cable if the sound is bright than buying dark sounding amp just to use the much less expensive IC.
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  10. #35
    Suspended Smokey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    But cables do tune a system. So if you buy a cable that makes your system sound bright you should just live with it? I would find a cable that makes my system sound balanced.
    I would say that be a common sense approach assuming that all the audio (and sources) played on that system have same 'audio' quality and EQ biasing.

    But since that will not be the case (as even each recordings have different EQ), then we should wonder as how cable is effecting different sound quaity. And we could never could figure that out if we are using cable to tame our system.

    So the problem of cable as part of a puzzle to achieve more balance system will never be solved

  11. #36
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    I would say that be a common sense approach assuming that all the audio (and sources) played on that system have same 'audio' quality and EQ biasing.

    But since that will not be the case (as even each recordings have different EQ), then we should wonder as how cable is effecting different sound quaity. And we could never could figure that out if we are using cable to tame our system.

    So the problem of cable as part of a puzzle to achieve more balance system will never be solved


    Of course I disagree. With my choice of AQ IC's and speaker cables they let all the music present itself wonderfully with my selection of components and speakers.
    Last edited by JohnMichael; 06-03-2014 at 06:21 AM.
    JohnMichael
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    But cables do tune a system. So if you buy a cable that makes your system sound bright you should just live with it? I would find a cable that makes my system sound balanced. Which I call tuning the system. I also find purchasing a new cable if the sound is bright than buying dark sounding amp just to use the much less expensive IC.
    Cables don't tune a system nearly as much as does seating position within the room and the room's acoustics. Most people in gross error try to go to tune using cables and interconnects then to fix the seating position and the room's acoustics. Cables/interconnects are sooo far down the affects list yet so many people in error put so much weight on them. I find this strangely amusing.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db View Post
    Cables don't tune a system nearly as much as does seating position within the room and the room's acoustics. Most people in gross error try to go to tune using cables and interconnects then to fix the seating position and the room's acoustics. Cables/interconnects are sooo far down the affects list yet so many people in error put so much weight on them. I find this strangely amusing.
    Some people have done all they can do to their rooms and the way seating is setup. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a dedicated listening room where they can set all that up optimally so what is left? Tweaks and Cables.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    Some people have done all they can do to their rooms and the way seating is setup. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a dedicated listening room where they can set all that up optimally so what is left? Tweaks and Cables.
    My point is that the effects of interconnects and cables on sound are so low compared to everything else that one will not get results they are looking for by cables and interconnects. The analogy I draw is one trying to make an oar out of log using 220 grit sandpaper. Its just not going to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db View Post
    My point is that the effects of interconnects and cables on sound are so low compared to everything else that one will not get results they are looking for by cables and interconnects. The analogy I draw is one trying to make an oar out of log using 220 grit sandpaper. Its just not going to happen.
    Worked fine for me in one application and seems to work for the many I associate with on several other sites. I am not sure what your gear is, or what cables you have rolled, but my gear resolves some cable differences and so does the systems of others in this thread. If I have a known bright system, and I put a know bassy cable in place and I like the sound it gives me, all the theory goes out the window.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    Worked fine for me in one application and seems to work for the many I associate with on several other sites. I am not sure what your gear is, or what cables you have rolled, but my gear resolves some cable differences and so does the systems of others in this thread. If I have a known bright system, and I put a know bassy cable in place and I like the sound it gives me, all the theory goes out the window.
    I can't throw theory aside as its theory that built audio in the first place. I'm also not going down the "your equipment isnt revolving enough to be able to tell differences in cables/interconnects" when I know full well that my room as of yet is not acoustically perfect. I'd rather throw my money on things such as acoustic treatments that will fix the issues based on theory than fixes based on subjective results that can be replicated by theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db View Post
    I can't throw theory aside as its theory that built audio in the first place. I'm also not going down the "your equipment isnt revolving enough to be able to tell differences in cables/interconnects" when I know full well that my room as of yet is not acoustically perfect. I'd rather throw my money on things such as acoustic treatments that will fix the issues based on theory than fixes based on subjective results that can be replicated by theory.
    That is perfectly understood, but I again pose the question as to what do you do if you have exhausted efforts on the former? I cannot put a bunch of absorbers on my living room walls, I don't have a dedicated room I can arrange and treat as desired so I have to work with what I am left with. If a $50 pair of ICs does the trick for me, who is anyone to say it's wrong?

    I would love to have a dedicated room built just for sound, but it ain't gonna happen for me unless god forbid I end up a widower at an early age. If you have that room, great, I hope you can tweak it with thousands of dollars of Bass Traps and Panels instead of a cheap pair of ICs.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    If you have that room, great, I hope you can tweak it with thousands of dollars of Bass Traps and Panels instead of a cheap pair of ICs.
    I already have the cheap interconnects

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db View Post
    I already have the cheap interconnects
    You're all set for life then, carry on.

  20. #45
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    3dB, I see your point but I agree with Hyfi as my listening room is my family room and the WAF is in place. My wife puts up with my Magnepans but if I were to put up room treatments I would be thrown out of the house. So I use IC's to help fine tune my system.
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    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
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  21. #46
    3db
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven View Post
    3dB, I see your point but I agree with Hyfi as my listening room is my family room and the WAF is in place. My wife puts up with my Magnepans but if I were to put up room treatments I would be thrown out of the house. So I use IC's to help fine tune my system.
    The WAF is a common theme unfortunately.

  22. #47
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    So if cables are out of the question as tone controls, are Tone Controls OK to engage?
    If yes, what do I do with units that do not have tone controls in the signal the path?

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3db View Post
    My point is that the effects of interconnects and cables on sound are so low compared to everything else that one will not get results they are looking for by cables and interconnects. The analogy I draw is one trying to make an oar out of log using 220 grit sandpaper. Its just not going to happen.
    Your analogy isn't correct, more like whether you have a Civic or Porsche you can choose to drive on donuts or expensive Michelan, both the donut or Michelan will get the vehicle down the road but one will do a much better job while the other has limitations. Most audiophiles I know with reasonable quality gear who have actually compared cables agree there are not only differences in sound but improvements to be had. And, you do have to compare, there are so many cable companies popping up out of the woodwork these days.
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  24. #49
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    I've treated my room with curtains & tapestry which help. I have a friend who has spent a lot of money of room treatments and to me his room is too dead sounding, I like the 50/50 approach, not too dead or live. But, even treating a room is subjective unless you have a spectrum analyser and the knowledge to find the correct treatment for the problem that may be found.

    I'm not saying any one else's approach is wrong but for me the cables should be an overall improvement in the sound, better resolution, detail etc. I've not purchased any cables with a "fix" to my system in mind. Nay sayers there will always be but these cable companies are able to voice cables, that's why it's possible to use them to tailor your system to sound a bit warmer or extended etc. I like cables who have a rep for being neutral but that's even a moving target as who knows what "neutral" should really be. Audio is like the 60's man, if it feels good, or in the case of audio, sounds good, DO IT
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    Mark Levinson #512 SACD & 532h power
    Pass Labs XP-10 preamp
    Clearaudio Performance DC & Maestro v2 E, AcousTech Ph-1p
    Clarus Crimson loom - AC outlet to speaker terminal
    JBL 4367's & SAM3ha
    Revel S30's & SVS PC13 Ultra (sub)
    Marantz BD-7003 > AV-8003 > LINN 5125
    Transparent cables / Tributaries HDMI
    PS Audio Quintet & Surgex SA15&20

  25. #50
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Mr P, I prefer a live room. I like the music hall effect.

    Concerning tone controls, I prefer to have them. After playing around with the tone controls on a Mac preamp a few months ago, I am convinced that they would be great to have. For bright music, just turn the treble down a bit and bump up the bass and things sound much better.
    Pass Labs X250 amp, BAT Vk-51se Preamp,
    Thorens TD-145 TT, Bellari phono preamp, Nagaoka MP-200 Cartridge
    Magnepan QR1.6 speakers
    Luxman DA-06 DAC
    Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube DAC
    Dual Martin Logan Original Dynamo Subs
    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
    Magnepan MMG's, Grant Fidelity DAC-11, Class D CDA254 amp
    Monitor Audio S1 speakers, PSB B6 speakers
    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
    Music Hall 25.2 CDP
    Adcom GFR 700 AVR
    Cables- Cardas, Silnote, BJC
    Velodyne CHT 8 sub

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