'Tis better to have loved Lost than never to have loved at all....

[topspeed]

it's LOST!

That was the first flashback that wasn't...or was it? First I'm thinking, cool, it's Des' backstory. But nooooooo, it's Des' evil twin living his life in a parallel universe or something. WTH?!?

I've been confused by this show, but this episode has me completely lost (pun intended). There was a strong "Matrix" current with the lady from the ring store on the park bench. Very much like the motherly cookie baker from Matrix. There was also a big "Somewhere in Time" vibe going on as well, with Penny almost as beautiful as Jane Seymour Des getting whacked and then waking up on the island was just like Christopher Reeve finding the penny in his pocket. Same tragic undercurrent of going through time to find your true love, experience it...only to lose it as it torments you only in your memory. If you remember, SIT ends with Reeve finding his love again...

...in heaven.

If you take the Matrix theme combined with the fact that their fates are predetermined and simply inescapable, that would be strong indication that these folks are dead. They just don't know it yet. Consider the Others to be Saint Peter meeting you at the gates, seeing if you are worthy with the island being the final testing ground. Ecko found peace...and the island took him.

Hmmmm...


Oh, thanks for noticing my socks FA

[Kam]

ok, latest of kam's throw a hundred theories out there and 1 is bound to be right:

Desmond is the founder of Dharma. But not our current friend desmond as he is right now, a desmond that has gone back in time far enough to realize he has to create the doomsday saving machine in order for it to be there for him to continue to press it. it's the classic Terminator Time Paradox.

Also, Desmond is "seeing" the future of the island. which means he's already lived this part of seeing charlie get hit by lightning, seeing charling drown, etc. So i don't think we've seen the last of dessy's "parallel" stories (they're not really just backstories anymore now haha). i think des has jumped around quite a LOT with that turn of the key and the current des we're watching is pulling in knowledge from a lot of different "jumps" he's made.

ok... have at it.. tear it apart, let's hear it!

[Kam]

more insanity from me:

so the song des heard on the jukebox was the same he had playing the first time we see him at the beginning of season 2. which leads me to believe my theory above more... because des is leaving himself clues all along the way. and the ultimate clue he left for himself all along the way was... 4 8 15 16 23 42. the numbers are desmond's clues to himself to save the world. they continue to remind desmond and the desmond's jumping through time to do what he has to do, to keep pulling him back to the island.

[Groundbeef]

This time travel aspect is really cool. However, there are some problems with it as it is being presented (IMHO).

1st, if this isn't the first time he has traveled, how does he avoid himself in future time travels. For example. He is in the bar, sees the winning goal, and the guy with the cricket bat. However, apparently he has done this all before, so where is "HE" at. There must be another "Desomond" somewhere, or noone would know who he is.

2nd, There is the aspect of "would you kill Hitler if you could travel back in time" feel to it, except, its now "How long can we keep Charlie alive". I'm not a big proponent of FATE, but it has been discussed before on the show. Notably, Ecko if I remeber correctly.

To me, FATE is a copout, and relieves people of real responsiblity, as though their life is pre-ordained. I think that the island is attempting to control them, but they have the ablity to resist.

3rd. They are not dead. Figurativly, or really. Why the rush to save Charlie if he's already "dead". And the writers have already de-bunked this aspect of the show by stating that the people are not "dead". However, when they die in the show they are then "dead".

All in all, it was awesome. It was truely an "Oh ****" moment when Desomond revieled that he was saving Charlie.

[ForeverAutumn]

If you take the Matrix theme combined with the fact that their fates are predetermined and simply inescapable, that would be strong indication that these folks are dead. They just don't know it yet. Consider the Others to be Saint Peter meeting you at the gates, seeing if you are worthy with the island being the final testing ground. Ecko found peace...and the island took him.

Benry = God?!

Oh, thanks for noticing my socks FA

You're quite welcome.

Also, Desmond is "seeing" the future of the island. which means he's already lived this part of seeing charlie get hit by lightning, seeing charling drown, etc. So i don't think we've seen the last of dessy's "parallel" stories (they're not really just backstories anymore now haha). i think des has jumped around quite a LOT with that turn of the key and the current des we're watching is pulling in knowledge from a lot of different "jumps" he's made.

I agree with you. I think that Des has lived this life many times. This is at least number three that we know of. In the first life, Charlie was struck by lightning. In the second life, Charlie drowned. I guess we'll find out how many time Des has been through this by how many time he can save Charlie. When Charlie finally dies, we'll know that it caught Desmond by surprise and brings him up to his current life.

But here's a question. Why is Desmond trying so hard to save Charlie? Why didn't he stop Locke from not pressing the button? Why didn't he save Ecko? Why only Charlie?

[Worf101]

more insanity from me:

so the song des heard on the jukebox was the same he had playing the first time we see him at the beginning of season 2. which leads me to believe my theory above more... because des is leaving himself clues all along the way. and the ultimate clue he left for himself all along the way was... 4 8 15 16 23 42. the numbers are desmond's clues to himself to save the world. they continue to remind desmond and the desmond's jumping through time to do what he has to do, to keep pulling him back to the island.

Didn't I see this theory/story on an episode of STNG? Leaving clues in a groundhog day loop till they get themselves out of it.

Da Worfster

[GMichael]

Didn't I see this theory/story on an episode of STNG? Leaving clues in a groundhog day loop till they get themselves out of it.

Da Worfster

Yup. Two versions I believe. One where they wanted to remember. And another where they didn't want to remember but tracked down clues that were left behind by accident. OK, so that one doesn't count.
Data! I order you to tell me what's going on. I can't. You can't? Why not? You ordered me not to. huh?

[Kam]

But here's a question. Why is Desmond trying so hard to save Charlie? Why didn't he stop Locke from not pressing the button? Why didn't he save Ecko? Why only Charlie?

ok... now (polar) bear with me for a second. i might not have this right (that'd be a surprise) but here's the idea which is tough to do without a chart.

Desmond1 (normal time never having jumped or gone anywhere ever)
Desmond 2 (jumped at the turn of the key)

D1-------->----guy hits bartender with cricket bat------>-------------D1 turns key JUMPS TO
D2--------->---guy hits D2 with cricket bat sending him to...........right after D1 turns key.
so then [D1 AFTER cricket bat------------->D1 turns key] is the D1 without any knowledge of the future.

So then D1 is back to D1 from the time AFTER the cricket bat hit until he turns the key. D1 does NOT know the future from that time section. I think the critical times of D1 where he is still D1 will always be from the time he meets Libby to turning the key. I don't think he'll ever "jump" into that time frame, or if he does, he jumps back. If you haven't read "the Time Traveller's Wife" i highly highly highly reccomend that book. It actually explains this "theory" a lot better than i do haha.

And i don't think there are multiple versions of Desmond running around ala Primer, but there is just ONE desmond throughout time and his "consciousness" inhabits them with each of these jumps. This is actually a better version of the Terminator Paradox. Desmond will never run into another "desmond" he'll just go through the exact same life again, with the knowledge he had gained from the first time around that he brings with him.

[Resident Loser]

...Desmond have a doppelganger? Is he capable of bilocation; is it time travel or does the fact of having one somehow transcend our time/space continuum? If I'm not mistaken, some part of quantum physics sees everything that exists much like a Picasso rendering, with all possible permutations of an event happening at once, but since we are limited to our three-dimensional perceptions we can only witness one of those random possibilites...

Seeing one's own doppelganger supposedly portends imminent demise, so if he ran into himself somewhere along the line, much like matter and anti-matter, he would cancel himself out and we'd be watchin' reruns of Barney Miller...

jimHJJ(...just a thought...)

[topspeed]

Random thought:

What's the connection between the picture in Widmore's office with the upside down Indian statue that is praying and the four toed foot statue on the beach? They seem very similar, or is it just me?

[kexodusc]

Despite being stranded in Halifax without a room reservation, I still manged to catch this week's show. I was sorta thinkin' along the same lines as RL - the whole space-time continuum/event parallel thing...or maybe a doppelganger - maybe....Either way, the show really kicked the mystery up a notch this week...

Definitely don't think it's time travel - Desmond isn't arriving in time with himself I don't think, more like Quantum Leap - he's leaping into himself with his future conscience and memory intact...

Very cool...

I knew something was up back in the Season 2 thread when I flagged "see you in another life, brother..." finally, one of my (sorta) predictions materializing...

[JSE]

I wonder when Desmond's former girlfriend will be brought back in "real time" and not in "flashback" time? Her researchers up in the Artic recorded the meltdown on the island and called to her they think they found "it". So I think she knows where Desmond is. She has to show up soon.

JSE

[Worf101]

I wonder when Desmond's former girlfriend will be brought back in "real time" and not in "flashback" time? Her researchers up in the Artic recorded the meltdown on the island and called to her they think they found "it". So I think she knows where Desmond is. She has to show up soon.

JSE

Just like a cold sore you show up when least expected. How's it hangin' bro. Long time no view!!!! Seriously though, good to see ya.

Da Worfster

[GMichael]

I wonder when Desmond's former girlfriend will be brought back in "real time" and not in "flashback" time? Her researchers up in the Artic recorded the meltdown on the island and called to her they think they found "it". So I think she knows where Desmond is. She has to show up soon.

JSE

Hey buddy! What's shakin'?
Come join our party 1,000th post.

I'll spot you the extra 25 posts.

[JSE]

Just like a cold sore you show up when least expected. How's it hangin' bro. Long time no view!!!! Seriously though, good to see ya.

Da Worfster

Hey Worf, LOL! I am kindof like a cold sore huh? I come, I irritate, and then I leave.

Glad to see someone still remembers me. I get around every now and then. I read alot but seldom post. I really need to come around more to keep the inmates in line. Still looks like several ol'timers are still around.

[JSE]

Hey buddy! What's shakin'?
Come join our party 1,000th post.

I'll spot you the extra 25 posts.

You guys are insane. OK, that's my new goal, 1000 here I come!

[Worf101]

Hey Worf, LOL! I am kindof like a cold sore huh? I come, I irritate, and then I leave.

Glad to see someone still remembers me. I get around every now and then. I read alot but seldom post. I really need to come around more to keep the inmates in line. Still looks like several ol'timers are still around.

Your silliness has cost me at lest two keyboards from coffee spewage. You'd right some insanely funny post and I'm up all night pulling sticky keys from my keyboard. So if you're not here I can't collect what ya owe!! Yeah we remember you with fondness and some dread.

Da Worfster..

PS, tell Cartman to put some pants on.

[JSE]

Your silliness has cost me at lest two keyboards from coffee spewage. You'd right some insanely funny post and I'm up all night pulling sticky keys from my keyboard. So if you're not here I can't collect what ya owe!! Yeah we remember you with fondness and some dread.

Da Worfster..

PS, tell Cartman to put some pants on.

Premature Spewage? Sounds like a personal problem eh?

Oh, and Cartman like the breeze!

[Worf101]

Premature Spewage? Sounds like a personal problem eh?

Oh, and Cartman like the breeze!

Prosecution rests your honor. We pray the jury has the wisdom to find the deffendant "guitly as charged".

Da Worfster

[Worf101]

Suck like a Hoover on Steroids. It's bad enough I have to sit through more commercials than show... but when that "show" is a 45 minute exposition on how homeboy picked up some Phuket artwork???? Puhlease. I've been to Thailand, I been on the "ho stroll". I thought we were gonna get a real shocker and realize that Jacks girl was in reality a boy (happens more than you'd like to think over there) but no, some lame ass story about a tattoo. I'm ready to quit this show, I mean I'm inches from it.

Da Worfster

[GMichael]

Suck like a Hoover on Steroids. It's bad enough I have to sit through more commercials than show... but when that "show" is a 45 minute exposition on how homeboy picked up some Phuket artwork???? Puhlease. I've been to Thailand, I been on the "ho stroll". I thought we were gonna get a real shocker and realize that Jacks girl was in reality a boy (happens more than you'd like to think over there) but no, some lame ass story about a tattoo. I'm ready to quit this show, I mean I'm inches from it.

Da Worfster

Yeah, but she was hot, in a dirty, sweaty, trashy, string bean kind of way.
I still enjoyed the show even though it wasn't the best. I'm sure it's just a transitional one to set up another down the road.

[Resident Loser]

Suck like a Hoover on Steroids. It's bad enough I have to sit through more commercials than show... but when that "show" is a 45 minute exposition on how homeboy picked up some Phuket artwork???? Puhlease. I've been to Thailand, I been on the "ho stroll". I thought we were gonna get a real shocker and realize that Jacks girl was in reality a boy (happens more than you'd like to think over there) but no, some lame ass story about a tattoo. I'm ready to quit this show, I mean I'm inches from it.

Da Worfster

...I was waiting for the big "reveal" myownself...at least it would have been interesting to see Jack's reaction...

jimHJJ(...they'd better do something really good next episode to make up for last night's dog...)

[Groundbeef]

I actually thought it was a pretty good episode.

Sawyer calling Kate "Magellen" was priceless.

Also, I think that the dynamic of the Thai lady and Jack was less to do about any "suprise" as it was about her vision of what Jack really was.

She indicated that he was a leader, and I couldn't hear some of the rest. But in the end, it appears that his experience in Thailand is mirrioring his experience on the Island.

As his tatto says, You are among us, but are not ONE of us. As Jack stated, that may be what it says, but its not what it means. I think that Jack is crafty, and is working on tearing the Others apart. By forcing Benry to cut Juliet out of the group norm of Death for killing one of the others, it has angered "The Sheriff" and probably others in the camp.

I am not sure where it is going, but its moving along.

I must say though, THANK GOD that my local ABC got its HD signal back OTA. We had a severe ice storm here about a month ago, and it burned out the HD transmitter. Yesterday the station got the new transmitter installed! Lost never looked better!

[Kam]

I actually thought it was a pretty good episode.

Sawyer calling Kate "Magellen" was priceless.

Also, I think that the dynamic of the Thai lady and Jack was less to do about any "suprise" as it was about her vision of what Jack really was.

She indicated that he was a leader, and I couldn't hear some of the rest. But in the end, it appears that his experience in Thailand is mirrioring his experience on the Island.

As his tatto says, You are among us, but are not ONE of us. As Jack stated, that may be what it says, but its not what it means. I think that Jack is crafty, and is working on tearing the Others apart. By forcing Benry to cut Juliet out of the group norm of Death for killing one of the others, it has angered "The Sheriff" and probably others in the camp.

I am not sure where it is going, but its moving along.

I must say though, THANK GOD that my local ABC got its HD signal back OTA. We had a severe ice storm here about a month ago, and it burned out the HD transmitter. Yesterday the station got the new transmitter installed! Lost never looked better!

i don't know if there are any chinese speakers here, but his tattoo also means something else. unless it's been changed for the show (which i dont think it has) mathew fox's actual tattoo that he has is from a mao poem that reads:
"Eagle high up, cleaving the space."
Now if that can also be translated to mean what they said, i have no idea.

although this episode, on the tail of the desmond episode, was a little weak. i still enjoyed it, but it was defn a bit of a filler to get to more meaty episodes.

cindy showing up and acting all weird like she's in some dream was severely annoying. and jack not just asking her, 'hey, yeah i remember you were on the plane, what happenned to you guys?' instead of just blowing up on them... yeah, it's understandable when you're under a lot of stress to fly off the handle, but c'mon! get some freakin' answers! everyone defn seemed brainwashed.

[Groundbeef]

i don't know if there are any chinese speakers here, but his tattoo also means something else. unless it's been changed for the show (which i dont think it has) mathew fox's actual tattoo that he has is from a mao poem that reads:
"Eagle high up, cleaving the space."
Now if that can also be translated to mean what they said, i have no idea.

As any casual observer can tell you, us Losties are a info seeking bunch. I would have a hard time beliving that the tattos on Jack haven't either been digitally altered, or cosmetically changed for the show in order for the message of the last show to be verified.

How stupid would that be if it turns out the tattos say something completly different than the now assumed message. I seriously doubt the writers would allow that to happen.

His permanent tattos wouldn't have to be changed. Nowadays, simply manipulate the shot dititally.