Star Wars DVD audio issues

[Woochifer]

I've been following a thread on the Digital Bits website making note of several audio problems on the Star Wars DVD. According to people writing in to their site, the music is reversed in the surround channels and there are other audio glitches in the soundtrack. The ones that Digital Bits made note of are listed below:

1) The familiar Force theme trumpet fanfare that used to play right after Red Leader says: "This is it!" and just as the X-wings start diving towards the Death Star's surface has been dialed back in volume so that it's almost inaudible - it's almost completely buried in the surround mix.

2) The audio quality varies wildly as Tarkin says the line: "You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the system." - almost as if the master sound element was damaged. It's very distracting.

3) Possibly most critically, John Williams' entire score for the film has been flipped in the rear channels, so that what should be the left rear channel is playing from the right rear channel (and vise versa). What this means is that the rear channels don't match the front channels - instruments heard from the front right channel come from the left rear instead of the right rear. Again, this is very distracting once you notice it.

Lucasfilm responded to them with this statement, and the site editor's response follows:

"We are always impressed with how closely fans listen to the many different sound mixes we have made for the Star Wars movies over the years. It is flattering to know that, indeed, the audience is listening. Consequently, each mix comes out differently and any changes that you hear on the all-new Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround EX tracks on the Star Wars Trilogy DVD set are deliberate creative decisions. We can confirm that there are no technical glitches as reported."

Dialing down the trumpet fanfare during the Death Star attack... okay, I can see that could be a creative decision. But the strange audio quality shift of Tarkin's line and the surrounds issue - I don't really buy that those are creative decisions. Judging by the e-mails we're getting, we're certainly not the only ones to have noticed these things. We're going to dig into this further and see what we come up with.

I watched Star Wars last night on my system and I can definitely confirm that there are glitches in the soundtrack. It could simply be that most of my previous viewings have been with two-channel sources and the flaws that I noted don't show up in a two-channel or Pro Logic playback, but a whole bunch of scenes just struck me as sounding VERY different than I remember them.

The sound effects definitely sound like they've been ratcheted up a LOT, to the point that they now overwhelm the dialog and the music in a lot of scenes. In some scenes, it also seems like the sound elements themselves got changed around, but overall the biggest change is just that certain sounds are much louder than before while others that I previously picked up on are now very quiet. Also, the audio quality of the dialog is all over the place, like half of it got dubbed in later on. I understand that looping sessions after filming is completed is standard practice, but the dialog in a lot of scenes jumps around from cut to cut. Also, in the cantina scene, Han Solo's voice spreads across all three front speakers creating a very bizarre effect.

I did not really notice the reversal with the music in the surround speakers, but the music is still not nearly as well integrated as it sounds with Empire and Jedi. I'm going to do some more careful listening tonight to see if I can identify signs of a reversal.

I can see where Lucasfilm is trying to create a soundtrack that can hold up to modern standards, but it's also pretty obvious that a lot of the sound elements were not originally created for careful listening on a home audio system. So, with Star Wars, the DVD soundtrack is a jumble of things that hold up well and others that don't. With the old VHS soundtracks, I always noted that the audio quality of Star Wars was a clear step below Empire and Jedi, but it was consistent. With the DVD soundtrack, they improved the audio in a lot of areas, but when blended in with other elements that still sound the same as before, the effect is somewhat jarring.

Not related to audio, but the new ending for Jedi with Hayden Christiansen making a cameo as Anakin is just WRONG! I'd heard that Lucas made that change and I didn't really pay much attention, but actually seeing that scene just made me cringe. It just did not look right at all, and seemed more like something you'd see in a B-movie where a cast member died and some stand-in had to finish up. Think "Plan Nine From Outer Space" where a lead died in th middle of filming and a stand-in did the rest of the scenes with a cape draped in front of his face! Or the U.S. version of "Game of Death" where they built a ridiculous movie (complete with a plastic surgery subplot) around the 20 minutes of fight footage that Bruce Lee finished before he died.

[Lexmark3200]

I've been following a thread on the Digital Bits website making note of several audio problems on the Star Wars DVD. According to people writing in to their site, the music is reversed in the surround channels and there are other audio glitches in the soundtrack. The ones that Digital Bits made note of are listed below:

1) The familiar Force theme trumpet fanfare that used to play right after Red Leader says: "This is it!" and just as the X-wings start diving towards the Death Star's surface has been dialed back in volume so that it's almost inaudible - it's almost completely buried in the surround mix.

2) The audio quality varies wildly as Tarkin says the line: "You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the system." - almost as if the master sound element was damaged. It's very distracting.

3) Possibly most critically, John Williams' entire score for the film has been flipped in the rear channels, so that what should be the left rear channel is playing from the right rear channel (and vise versa). What this means is that the rear channels don't match the front channels - instruments heard from the front right channel come from the left rear instead of the right rear. Again, this is very distracting once you notice it.

Lucasfilm responded to them with this statement, and the site editor's response follows:

"We are always impressed with how closely fans listen to the many different sound mixes we have made for the Star Wars movies over the years. It is flattering to know that, indeed, the audience is listening. Consequently, each mix comes out differently and any changes that you hear on the all-new Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround EX tracks on the Star Wars Trilogy DVD set are deliberate creative decisions. We can confirm that there are no technical glitches as reported."

Dialing down the trumpet fanfare during the Death Star attack... okay, I can see that could be a creative decision. But the strange audio quality shift of Tarkin's line and the surrounds issue - I don't really buy that those are creative decisions. Judging by the e-mails we're getting, we're certainly not the only ones to have noticed these things. We're going to dig into this further and see what we come up with.

I watched Star Wars last night on my system and I can definitely confirm that there are glitches in the soundtrack. It could simply be that most of my previous viewings have been with two-channel sources and the flaws that I noted don't show up in a two-channel or Pro Logic playback, but a whole bunch of scenes just struck me as sounding VERY different than I remember them.

The sound effects definitely sound like they've been ratcheted up a LOT, to the point that they now overwhelm the dialog and the music in a lot of scenes. In some scenes, it also seems like the sound elements themselves got changed around, but overall the biggest change is just that certain sounds are much louder than before while others that I previously picked up on are now very quiet. Also, the audio quality of the dialog is all over the place, like half of it got dubbed in later on. I understand that looping sessions after filming is completed is standard practice, but the dialog in a lot of scenes jumps around from cut to cut. Also, in the cantina scene, Han Solo's voice spreads across all three front speakers creating a very bizarre effect.

I did not really notice the reversal with the music in the surround speakers, but the music is still not nearly as well integrated as it sounds with Empire and Jedi. I'm going to do some more careful listening tonight to see if I can identify signs of a reversal.

I can see where Lucasfilm is trying to create a soundtrack that can hold up to modern standards, but it's also pretty obvious that a lot of the sound elements were not originally created for careful listening on a home audio system. So, with Star Wars, the DVD soundtrack is a jumble of things that hold up well and others that don't. With the old VHS soundtracks, I always noted that the audio quality of Star Wars was a clear step below Empire and Jedi, but it was consistent. With the DVD soundtrack, they improved the audio in a lot of areas, but when blended in with other elements that still sound the same as before, the effect is somewhat jarring.

Not related to audio, but the new ending for Jedi with Hayden Christiansen making a cameo as Anakin is just WRONG! I'd heard that Lucas made that change and I didn't really pay much attention, but actually seeing that scene just made me cringe. It just did not look right at all, and seemed more like something you'd see in a B-movie where a cast member died and some stand-in had to finish up. Think "Plan Nine From Outer Space" where a lead died in th middle of filming and a stand-in did the rest of the scenes with a cape draped in front of his face! Or the U.S. version of "Game of Death" where they built a ridiculous movie (complete with a plastic surgery subplot) around the 20 minutes of fight footage that Bruce Lee finished before he died.

Did I not say there were audio issues with the trilogy DVD set on LENGTHY discussions via digitalbits.com and hometheaterforum.com? Some of these, as I got into on hometheaterforum, were tremendous in scope (the discussions, that is).

[Woochifer]

I gave Star Wars another listen tonight, and confirmed that the music in the surround channels IS indeed reversed. Go straight to Chapter 49 (the victory ceremony at the end of the movie) and listen to the instrumentation in the front speakers and compare it to the surrounds. It's very obviously reversed. Unfreaking believable! That might explain why the music sounds somewhat off throughout the movie. If you listen to Empire and Jedi, the mixing with the music is well done and the whole soundtrack is cohesive. With all the tinkering with the movie and the soundtrack that was done, you would think that something as seemingly simple as L and R channels would not get overlooked.

[Dusty Chalk]

Where's the quality control? Is this not one of the most important releases on DVD ever? Didn't anyone watch these before they came out?

[eqm]

I gave Star Wars another listen tonight, and confirmed that the music in the surround channels IS indeed reversed. Go straight to Chapter 49 (the victory ceremony at the end of the movie) and listen to the instrumentation in the front speakers and compare it to the surrounds. It's very obviously reversed. Unfreaking believable! That might explain why the music sounds somewhat off throughout the movie. If you listen to Empire and Jedi, the mixing with the music is well done and the whole soundtrack is cohesive. With all the tinkering with the movie and the soundtrack that was done, you would think that something as seemingly simple as L and R channels would not get overlooked.

Don't you know for a REAL THX SYSTEM you need to hook up your left rear and right rear opposite!!!!?????!!!!!

Oh yeah...and if you don't have EVERY SINGLE ONE of your speaker wires the exact same length....that is so totally your problem.....!!!

[kexodusc]

You're 100% right Wooch...I'm a big Star Wars fan, and will defend the changes, revisionism, and the merit of Ep's 1-3, but this is inexcusable.

I hope to God the excuse is the master tapes were damaged. That would explain some of the dreadful issues. If it's anything less than that, I am 100% pissed off.

And what makes it worse is how Empire and RTOJ are so damn good.

I don't have a problem with the boosted special effects in certain scenes, but the dialogue drop is really annoying once you are aware it's there. And it happens quite frequently throughout the film, sometimes more evident than others.
I don't understand why the Lightsabers employ soo much LFE in EP I and II and next to none in EP 4,5, and 6...oh well.

But at this point I have to wonder, did Lucas even watch Star Wars? Not since Alien 3 have I been so disappointed in a re-master. And at least Alien 3 had a history of problems to begin with. At first, I was just so freakin' excited to own these on DVD finally that I ignorantly overlooked these terrible flaws.
I'm no studio engineer, but surely it could have been better.

As one of my favorite movies ever, this long awaited DVD release deserved so much better.

[alumpkin]

Does anyone know if Lucas is planning on fixing these things? There is no way, in my opinion, that he can leave it like it is. I mean changing around the surround speaker sounds, that needs to be fixed. I can understand some of the new scenes (although I disagree with about half of them), but these technical problems make me want to take back my trilogy that I haven't opened yet. So again, does anyone know if Lucas is going to fix these things and release another edition? Personally, I doubt it.

[Woochifer]

Does anyone know if Lucas is planning on fixing these things? There is no way, in my opinion, that he can leave it like it is. I mean changing around the surround speaker sounds, that needs to be fixed. I can understand some of the new scenes (although I disagree with about half of them), but these technical problems make me want to take back my trilogy that I haven't opened yet. So again, does anyone know if Lucas is going to fix these things and release another edition? Personally, I doubt it.

I think enough of a stink will get raised so that some kind of exchange program will have to get implemented. There's no way they're going to recall the millions of discs that got shipped already. I have a feeling that somebody already caught this, but they had schedules to meet and millions of dollars to count. So the discs went out anyway, knowing full well that somebody will probably catch it. But, that doesn't happen until the discs already get out, and most of the buying public doesn't notice this kind of issue anyway.

The soundtrack does sound odd, but unless somebody points this out and you're listening for it, it's not easy to pick out why the soundtrack doesn't quite sound right. If somebody points out that the soundtrack sounds odd, Lucasfilm can simply say that it's an old soundtrack and they made "creative" changes to it. But, crossing the music in the surround channels is something you can't write off to old soundtrack elements or creative choices, somebody messed up plain and simple. It's all the more galling because the disc is supposedly THX certified, Lucasfilm employs some of the best sound engineers in the industry, and a classic film of this stature that has been at the top of the DVD wishlist since the format came out deserves some attention to detail. Judging by the tone of Lucas' AP interview, it now really seems like he just got them out because he's trying to maximize his revenue before video piracy takes hold.

When the Back To The Future trilogy came out, some perceptive posters on boards like this one noticed that the widescreen aspect ratio on parts 2 and 3 was incorrect. Universal sold thousands of the defective discs, but they wound up reissuing those discs with the correct aspect ratio later on, and put together an exchange program where people who wanted the corrected discs could exchange for them. I would not have noticed the framing problem unless someone pointed it out, but now that I have seen the corrected discs, a considerable amount of the side image did get truncated in the original issue. I presume that it's a lot less expensive to implement an exchange program like the one for BTTF that placates the home theater enthusiasts, rather than issue a general recall. Especially if these issues are things that most people won't notice unless they're looking for them.

I would hope that if Star Wars gets redone, they fix some of the other audio problems on that disc, because it's not just the music channel reversal that people are complaining about.

[Woochifer]

You're 100% right Wooch...I'm a big Star Wars fan, and will defend the changes, revisionism, and the merit of Ep's 1-3, but this is inexcusable.

I hope to God the excuse is the master tapes were damaged. That would explain some of the dreadful issues. If it's anything less than that, I am 100% pissed off.

My sentiments exactly. If the elements are damaged, that's fine. But, so much of what I heard on that soundtrack just seemed to me more like sloppy work (Han's dialog in the Cantina scene, for example).

I don't understand why the Lightsabers employ soo much LFE in EP I and II and next to none in EP 4,5, and 6...oh well.

More nitpicking -- notice that the lightsabers in the entire trilogy now look really inconsistent? What's with Luke's lightsaber that can't figure out if it's blue or green? Or what about Vader's cool looking pink lightsaber? Supposedly they did a lot of clean up work with the lightsabers, but some of the changes just look stupid.

But at this point I have to wonder, did Lucas even watch Star Wars? Not since Alien 3 have I been so disappointed in a re-master. And at least Alien 3 had a history of problems to begin with. At first, I was just so freakin' excited to own these on DVD finally that I ignorantly overlooked these terrible flaws.
I'm no studio engineer, but surely it could have been better.

As one of my favorite movies ever, this long awaited DVD release deserved so much better.

As notorious a perfectionist as Lucas supposedly is, I'm really surprised that a high profile release like this got out with as many issues in the soundtrack as there are. People are tripping over themselves to praise the picture quality, but on my TV Star Wars looks really dark in a lot of scenes. I'm just hoping that some reissued disc is made available soon because now that I'm aware of these problems and have started keying in on them, it really detracts from my enjoyment of the movie.

[kexodusc]

Actually Wooch, the visuals seemed fine on mine, with the exception of a greenish lightsaber in the scene with Luke, Obiwan and the remote thingy in the Falcon.
Vaders saber looked eerily red whenever I saw it. The desert scenes are especially good now.
Could be variances in TV's, equipment etc, causing this?

I'm still very, very happy with the job overall. Just the darn Mickey Mouse audio track on Star Wars, which I didn't notice got crappy until they reached the Death Star.
I'll reserve my final judgement until I see how Lucas deals with this.
And ultimately, it's probably not fair to blame Lucas...I'm sure he had very little to do with this.
Take solace in the fact that Lucas probably has made it so the goof that's responsible never works in Holywood again.

Or continue blaming THX (which is kind of fun).

[Woochifer]

Don't you know for a REAL THX SYSTEM you need to hook up your left rear and right rear opposite!!!!?????!!!!!

Oh yeah...and if you don't have EVERY SINGLE ONE of your speaker wires the exact same length....that is so totally your problem.....!!!

Thanx for reminding me, I totally forgot that with a real THX system, the music is supposed to be in sync between the front and back speakers, but the sound effects are supposed to come from opposite sides. Lucasfilm is just smarter than all of us, they're actually doing this according to how sensory information travels through the brain and matching the sound elements to how that information gets processed.

What we hear in our left ear gets processed through our right brain hemisphere, and vice versa. Music is an emotional experience and is therefore processed in the right hemisphere, whereas dialog and sound effects are logical constructs that our left brain hemisphere processes.

By reversing the music tracks in the surrounds and keeping the logical balance with the dialog and effects, that movie is better optimizing our synaptic energy. Now that I think about it, it's actually Jedi, Empire, and every other DVD in my collection that's defective. Star Wars is the ONLY one that got it right!

[eqm]

Thanx for reminding me, I totally forgot that with a real THX system, the music is supposed to be in sync between the front and back speakers, but the sound effects are supposed to come from opposite sides. Lucasfilm is just smarter than all of us, they're actually doing this according to how sensory information travels through the brain and matching the sound elements to how that information gets processed.

What we hear in our left ear gets processed through our right brain hemisphere, and vice versa. Music is an emotional experience and is therefore processed in the right hemisphere, whereas dialog and sound effects are logical constructs that our left brain hemisphere processes.

By reversing the music tracks in the surrounds and keeping the logical balance with the dialog and effects, that movie is better optimizing our synaptic energy. Now that I think about it, it's actually Jedi, Empire, and every other DVD in my collection that's defective. Star Wars is the ONLY one that got it right!

you need to throw in the word "quantum" in there somewhere if you want me to buy your argument!!!

[recoveryone]

YOU saw that too Woo, I watch it lastnight and it caught me off guard with the new Darth Vader at the end.

[alumpkin]

I appreciate the info Wooch. I was not aware that an exchange might be possible... I guess we will see. I think I will keep and open my trilogy boxset and in the worst case situation, have to buy another edition down the road. I have heard lots of good things about the extras disc, so that to me is almost worth the boxset itself.

[Dusty Chalk]

Alright, we watched it last night, and it really isn't that obvious. My friends, neither of whom has seen the Special Editions yet, were really unimpressed with the additional scenes. They didn't like Jabba when Han Solo runs into him at the Millenium Falcon, they thought he looked "cheesy", and of course they didn't like that Greedo shot first (and missed, at point blank range). They still enjoyed the transfer, as did I, and the audio problems weren't that obvious.

And I totally forgot that they turned the explosion sideways at the end. What was the point of that?

[RGA]

All these problems on Star Wars. Well hey they will get their billions selling them all and in 4 years they can come out with a NEW and Improved digitally remastered and glitch free version with a new documentary and preview for parts 7,8 and 9 and they will put on the original non doctored added F/X versions --- the sheep will dump their current version and pay another $55.00Cdn for the new one.

How many Terminator 2. versions are we at? 3.
Exorcist at least 3
Dawn of the Dead --3
Halloween --- yes 4 versions of that one
Aliens at least -- 2

And a whole pile have 2 versions.

You just wait - new Star Wars boxed set within 5 years or sold separately the original versions. Hell If I were selling DVD's this ios a great way to make moeny. Sell the same person the same movie 2 times maybe 3 if I'm lucky.

So now I wait for the Suped up versions - I know it's coming. I held out on Dawn of the Dead because I knew it was coming and it's about as good as it can get. Same for the English Patient which I had to wait 4 years for but hey - I was lucky to have owned Laser-disc so I knew about all the extended versions and documentaries of a lot of thesemovies - so forget buying the bare bones one.

I only did that with two movies Shawshank Redemption and Goodfellas which I know will eventually come in suped up versions. Goodfellas already and Shawshank soon or later.

[Woochifer]

All these problems on Star Wars. Well hey they will get their billions selling them all and in 4 years they can come out with a NEW and Improved digitally remastered and glitch free version with a new documentary and preview for parts 7,8 and 9 and they will put on the original non doctored added F/X versions --- the sheep will dump their current version and pay another $55.00Cdn for the new one.

How many Terminator 2. versions are we at? 3.
Exorcist at least 3
Dawn of the Dead --3
Halloween --- yes 4 versions of that one
Aliens at least -- 2

And a whole pile have 2 versions.

You just wait - new Star Wars boxed set within 5 years or sold separately the original versions. Hell If I were selling DVD's this ios a great way to make moeny. Sell the same person the same movie 2 times maybe 3 if I'm lucky.

So now I wait for the Suped up versions - I know it's coming. I held out on Dawn of the Dead because I knew it was coming and it's about as good as it can get. Same for the English Patient which I had to wait 4 years for but hey - I was lucky to have owned Laser-disc so I knew about all the extended versions and documentaries of a lot of thesemovies - so forget buying the bare bones one.

I only did that with two movies Shawshank Redemption and Goodfellas which I know will eventually come in suped up versions. Goodfellas already and Shawshank soon or later.

If you go through the production gallery on the bonus disc, there are pictures from the backstory between Luke and Biggs (his childhood friend who was one of the rebel pilots). Koo Stark (followers of the British royal family might remember her) was in a supporting role here, but the entire story thread got chopped out of the final edit. Rumor was that this backstory would make its way into the DVD, but it did not, so we know that there's a lot of deleted scenes and other story threads that are still waiting to be unearthed.

However, I've read before that Lucas has been unimpressed with the DVD format, and was more intrigued by possibilities for HD. But, apparently the piracy issue has given him second thoughts. I actually doubt that Lucasfilm will put out another DVD set of Star Wars. The only scenario I can think of where he'll come out with another DVD edition would come after Episode III comes out. Anything else will likely wait for the HD video discs to hit the market.

As far as special edition DVDs go, you're actually taking a risk in a lot of cases bypassing the initial release, especially if it's already a two-disc set. Keep in mind that when DVDs get rereleased, they don't always include MORE -- they often get pushed back into single-disc editions. WalMart's actually been pressuing studios into eliminating the special editions in order to keep the prices going down.

Just look at Toy Story, Gladiator, Lawrence of Arabia, Shrek, Cast Away, and Close Encounters. Those are some examples of DVDs that got downsized when they were rereleased. It's all a game of hedging your bets, but it doesn't always come out in your favor when you wait.

[Woochifer]

P.S. Shawshank Redemption special edition DVD comes out next week.

If you're looking for movies that are likely to get some kind of special edition treatment, just look for discs that were originally issued in nonanamorphic widescreen. With the 16x9 TV format starting to take hold, nonanamorphic transfers are unacceptable because they leave blank areas on the side AND black bars at the top and bottom. As more and more broadcast channels go to HD, the studios will have to do a HD transfer at some point. The HD transfers are increasingly what get used to create the anamorphic widescreen DVDs, and most of the early nonanamorphic widescreen DVDs were done with older masters used with VHS or Laserdisc editions.

[RGA]

Firstly the original dvd's had BOTH widescreen and Full screen - one on each side. Then they had dual layer discs then they got rid of giving you both formats and assumed that it was LD buyers who were all movie buffs and wanted widescreen. Joe Public hates widescreen(want proof look at what Blockbuster started to do) so now they come out with 2 versions of the exact same movie(tell me that stores don't like carrying multiple formats on the post about SACD well this is multiple formats???). They SHOULD be putting both versions on the discs instead of wasting a side. Of course some will counter that costs more BS.

It's only about profit boys - they deliberately give crap versions the first go round and then entice you with the supreme edition later on. And even I know this and they have got me a few times. I waited for T-2 the ultimate Edition and now there is a new one. Luckily I'm not at all anal about the video quality. I bought LD for the widescreen format and I buy DVD for the widescreen format. Some of the bonus features are interesting but I don;t really have the time to listen to every running commentary - maybe 4 out of the 100+ that have commentary's I ever bothered with. I personally like themovie screen picture for its higher resolution than DVD and shimmering details so as to why I could care less about home video picture. But i respect some are into it.

If people of the world united and REFUSED to buy the Star Wars Boxed set at $55.00 you'd see within a month the price drop to $15.00. If you notice how many DVD's start at $25.00 and about 6months later they're selling it for $17.00 or less. Schindler's List boxed set started at $87.00 CDN - a month later was $39.00 and now it's $32.99Cdn. Or Ghostbusters for $37.00 and now $12.50 a year or so later.

E.T. Boxed set on the other hand went the other way. Supply and demand I suppose. I just wish when a total garbage edition of a movie comes out NOBODY buy it. It would be in the cheap bin in a week and the supreme edition out in a month.