• 09-22-2004, 04:19 PM
    Woochifer
    Star Wars DVD audio issues
    I've been following a thread on the Digital Bits website making note of several audio problems on the Star Wars DVD. According to people writing in to their site, the music is reversed in the surround channels and there are other audio glitches in the soundtrack. The ones that Digital Bits made note of are listed below:

    1) The familiar Force theme trumpet fanfare that used to play right after Red Leader says: "This is it!" and just as the X-wings start diving towards the Death Star's surface has been dialed back in volume so that it's almost inaudible - it's almost completely buried in the surround mix.

    2) The audio quality varies wildly as Tarkin says the line: "You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the system." - almost as if the master sound element was damaged. It's very distracting.

    3) Possibly most critically, John Williams' entire score for the film has been flipped in the rear channels, so that what should be the left rear channel is playing from the right rear channel (and vise versa). What this means is that the rear channels don't match the front channels - instruments heard from the front right channel come from the left rear instead of the right rear. Again, this is very distracting once you notice it.


    Lucasfilm responded to them with this statement, and the site editor's response follows:

    "We are always impressed with how closely fans listen to the many different sound mixes we have made for the Star Wars movies over the years. It is flattering to know that, indeed, the audience is listening. Consequently, each mix comes out differently and any changes that you hear on the all-new Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround EX tracks on the Star Wars Trilogy DVD set are deliberate creative decisions. We can confirm that there are no technical glitches as reported."

    Dialing down the trumpet fanfare during the Death Star attack... okay, I can see that could be a creative decision. But the strange audio quality shift of Tarkin's line and the surrounds issue - I don't really buy that those are creative decisions. Judging by the e-mails we're getting, we're certainly not the only ones to have noticed these things. We're going to dig into this further and see what we come up with.


    I watched Star Wars last night on my system and I can definitely confirm that there are glitches in the soundtrack. It could simply be that most of my previous viewings have been with two-channel sources and the flaws that I noted don't show up in a two-channel or Pro Logic playback, but a whole bunch of scenes just struck me as sounding VERY different than I remember them.

    The sound effects definitely sound like they've been ratcheted up a LOT, to the point that they now overwhelm the dialog and the music in a lot of scenes. In some scenes, it also seems like the sound elements themselves got changed around, but overall the biggest change is just that certain sounds are much louder than before while others that I previously picked up on are now very quiet. Also, the audio quality of the dialog is all over the place, like half of it got dubbed in later on. I understand that looping sessions after filming is completed is standard practice, but the dialog in a lot of scenes jumps around from cut to cut. Also, in the cantina scene, Han Solo's voice spreads across all three front speakers creating a very bizarre effect.

    I did not really notice the reversal with the music in the surround speakers, but the music is still not nearly as well integrated as it sounds with Empire and Jedi. I'm going to do some more careful listening tonight to see if I can identify signs of a reversal.

    I can see where Lucasfilm is trying to create a soundtrack that can hold up to modern standards, but it's also pretty obvious that a lot of the sound elements were not originally created for careful listening on a home audio system. So, with Star Wars, the DVD soundtrack is a jumble of things that hold up well and others that don't. With the old VHS soundtracks, I always noted that the audio quality of Star Wars was a clear step below Empire and Jedi, but it was consistent. With the DVD soundtrack, they improved the audio in a lot of areas, but when blended in with other elements that still sound the same as before, the effect is somewhat jarring.

    Not related to audio, but the new ending for Jedi with Hayden Christiansen making a cameo as Anakin is just WRONG! I'd heard that Lucas made that change and I didn't really pay much attention, but actually seeing that scene just made me cringe. It just did not look right at all, and seemed more like something you'd see in a B-movie where a cast member died and some stand-in had to finish up. Think "Plan Nine From Outer Space" where a lead died in th middle of filming and a stand-in did the rest of the scenes with a cape draped in front of his face! Or the U.S. version of "Game of Death" where they built a ridiculous movie (complete with a plastic surgery subplot) around the 20 minutes of fight footage that Bruce Lee finished before he died.
  • 09-22-2004, 08:58 PM
    Lexmark3200
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer
    I've been following a thread on the Digital Bits website making note of several audio problems on the Star Wars DVD. According to people writing in to their site, the music is reversed in the surround channels and there are other audio glitches in the soundtrack. The ones that Digital Bits made note of are listed below:

    1) The familiar Force theme trumpet fanfare that used to play right after Red Leader says: "This is it!" and just as the X-wings start diving towards the Death Star's surface has been dialed back in volume so that it's almost inaudible - it's almost completely buried in the surround mix.

    2) The audio quality varies wildly as Tarkin says the line: "You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the system." - almost as if the master sound element was damaged. It's very distracting.

    3) Possibly most critically, John Williams' entire score for the film has been flipped in the rear channels, so that what should be the left rear channel is playing from the right rear channel (and vise versa). What this means is that the rear channels don't match the front channels - instruments heard from the front right channel come from the left rear instead of the right rear. Again, this is very distracting once you notice it.


    Lucasfilm responded to them with this statement, and the site editor's response follows:

    "We are always impressed with how closely fans listen to the many different sound mixes we have made for the Star Wars movies over the years. It is flattering to know that, indeed, the audience is listening. Consequently, each mix comes out differently and any changes that you hear on the all-new Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround EX tracks on the Star Wars Trilogy DVD set are deliberate creative decisions. We can confirm that there are no technical glitches as reported."

    Dialing down the trumpet fanfare during the Death Star attack... okay, I can see that could be a creative decision. But the strange audio quality shift of Tarkin's line and the surrounds issue - I don't really buy that those are creative decisions. Judging by the e-mails we're getting, we're certainly not the only ones to have noticed these things. We're going to dig into this further and see what we come up with.


    I watched Star Wars last night on my system and I can definitely confirm that there are glitches in the soundtrack. It could simply be that most of my previous viewings have been with two-channel sources and the flaws that I noted don't show up in a two-channel or Pro Logic playback, but a whole bunch of scenes just struck me as sounding VERY different than I remember them.

    The sound effects definitely sound like they've been ratcheted up a LOT, to the point that they now overwhelm the dialog and the music in a lot of scenes. In some scenes, it also seems like the sound elements themselves got changed around, but overall the biggest change is just that certain sounds are much louder than before while others that I previously picked up on are now very quiet. Also, the audio quality of the dialog is all over the place, like half of it got dubbed in later on. I understand that looping sessions after filming is completed is standard practice, but the dialog in a lot of scenes jumps around from cut to cut. Also, in the cantina scene, Han Solo's voice spreads across all three front speakers creating a very bizarre effect.

    I did not really notice the reversal with the music in the surround speakers, but the music is still not nearly as well integrated as it sounds with Empire and Jedi. I'm going to do some more careful listening tonight to see if I can identify signs of a reversal.

    I can see where Lucasfilm is trying to create a soundtrack that can hold up to modern standards, but it's also pretty obvious that a lot of the sound elements were not originally created for careful listening on a home audio system. So, with Star Wars, the DVD soundtrack is a jumble of things that hold up well and others that don't. With the old VHS soundtracks, I always noted that the audio quality of Star Wars was a clear step below Empire and Jedi, but it was consistent. With the DVD soundtrack, they improved the audio in a lot of areas, but when blended in with other elements that still sound the same as before, the effect is somewhat jarring.

    Not related to audio, but the new ending for Jedi with Hayden Christiansen making a cameo as Anakin is just WRONG! I'd heard that Lucas made that change and I didn't really pay much attention, but actually seeing that scene just made me cringe. It just did not look right at all, and seemed more like something you'd see in a B-movie where a cast member died and some stand-in had to finish up. Think "Plan Nine From Outer Space" where a lead died in th middle of filming and a stand-in did the rest of the scenes with a cape draped in front of his face! Or the U.S. version of "Game of Death" where they built a ridiculous movie (complete with a plastic surgery subplot) around the 20 minutes of fight footage that Bruce Lee finished before he died.

    Did I not say there were audio issues with the trilogy DVD set on LENGTHY discussions via digitalbits.com and hometheaterforum.com? Some of these, as I got into on hometheaterforum, were tremendous in scope (the discussions, that is).
  • 09-22-2004, 09:37 PM
    Woochifer
    I gave Star Wars another listen tonight, and confirmed that the music in the surround channels IS indeed reversed. Go straight to Chapter 49 (the victory ceremony at the end of the movie) and listen to the instrumentation in the front speakers and compare it to the surrounds. It's very obviously reversed. Unfreaking believable! That might explain why the music sounds somewhat off throughout the movie. If you listen to Empire and Jedi, the mixing with the music is well done and the whole soundtrack is cohesive. With all the tinkering with the movie and the soundtrack that was done, you would think that something as seemingly simple as L and R channels would not get overlooked.
  • 09-22-2004, 09:44 PM
    Dusty Chalk
    Where's the quality control? Is this not one of the most important releases on DVD ever? Didn't anyone watch these before they came out?
  • 09-23-2004, 05:53 AM
    eqm
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer
    I gave Star Wars another listen tonight, and confirmed that the music in the surround channels IS indeed reversed. Go straight to Chapter 49 (the victory ceremony at the end of the movie) and listen to the instrumentation in the front speakers and compare it to the surrounds. It's very obviously reversed. Unfreaking believable! That might explain why the music sounds somewhat off throughout the movie. If you listen to Empire and Jedi, the mixing with the music is well done and the whole soundtrack is cohesive. With all the tinkering with the movie and the soundtrack that was done, you would think that something as seemingly simple as L and R channels would not get overlooked.

    Don't you know for a REAL THX SYSTEM you need to hook up your left rear and right rear opposite!!!!?????!!!!! :p :p :p :p

    Oh yeah...and if you don't have EVERY SINGLE ONE of your speaker wires the exact same length....that is so totally your problem.....!!! ;) ;) ;) ;)
  • 09-23-2004, 06:21 AM
    kexodusc
    You're 100% right Wooch...I'm a big Star Wars fan, and will defend the changes, revisionism, and the merit of Ep's 1-3, but this is inexcusable.

    I hope to God the excuse is the master tapes were damaged. That would explain some of the dreadful issues. If it's anything less than that, I am 100% pissed off.

    And what makes it worse is how Empire and RTOJ are so damn good.

    I don't have a problem with the boosted special effects in certain scenes, but the dialogue drop is really annoying once you are aware it's there. And it happens quite frequently throughout the film, sometimes more evident than others.
    I don't understand why the Lightsabers employ soo much LFE in EP I and II and next to none in EP 4,5, and 6...oh well.

    But at this point I have to wonder, did Lucas even watch Star Wars? Not since Alien 3 have I been so disappointed in a re-master. And at least Alien 3 had a history of problems to begin with. At first, I was just so freakin' excited to own these on DVD finally that I ignorantly overlooked these terrible flaws.
    I'm no studio engineer, but surely it could have been better.

    As one of my favorite movies ever, this long awaited DVD release deserved so much better.
  • 09-23-2004, 09:27 AM
    alumpkin
    Redo the DVDs?
    Does anyone know if Lucas is planning on fixing these things? There is no way, in my opinion, that he can leave it like it is. I mean changing around the surround speaker sounds, that needs to be fixed. I can understand some of the new scenes (although I disagree with about half of them), but these technical problems make me want to take back my trilogy that I haven't opened yet. So again, does anyone know if Lucas is going to fix these things and release another edition? Personally, I doubt it.
  • 09-23-2004, 09:31 AM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eqm
    Don't you know for a REAL THX SYSTEM you need to hook up your left rear and right rear opposite!!!!?????!!!!! :p :p :p :p

    Oh yeah...and if you don't have EVERY SINGLE ONE of your speaker wires the exact same length....that is so totally your problem.....!!! ;) ;) ;) ;)

    Thanx for reminding me, I totally forgot that with a real THX system, the music is supposed to be in sync between the front and back speakers, but the sound effects are supposed to come from opposite sides. Lucasfilm is just smarter than all of us, they're actually doing this according to how sensory information travels through the brain and matching the sound elements to how that information gets processed.

    What we hear in our left ear gets processed through our right brain hemisphere, and vice versa. Music is an emotional experience and is therefore processed in the right hemisphere, whereas dialog and sound effects are logical constructs that our left brain hemisphere processes.

    By reversing the music tracks in the surrounds and keeping the logical balance with the dialog and effects, that movie is better optimizing our synaptic energy. Now that I think about it, it's actually Jedi, Empire, and every other DVD in my collection that's defective. Star Wars is the ONLY one that got it right!
  • 09-23-2004, 09:49 AM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by alumpkin
    Does anyone know if Lucas is planning on fixing these things? There is no way, in my opinion, that he can leave it like it is. I mean changing around the surround speaker sounds, that needs to be fixed. I can understand some of the new scenes (although I disagree with about half of them), but these technical problems make me want to take back my trilogy that I haven't opened yet. So again, does anyone know if Lucas is going to fix these things and release another edition? Personally, I doubt it.

    I think enough of a stink will get raised so that some kind of exchange program will have to get implemented. There's no way they're going to recall the millions of discs that got shipped already. I have a feeling that somebody already caught this, but they had schedules to meet and millions of dollars to count. So the discs went out anyway, knowing full well that somebody will probably catch it. But, that doesn't happen until the discs already get out, and most of the buying public doesn't notice this kind of issue anyway.

    The soundtrack does sound odd, but unless somebody points this out and you're listening for it, it's not easy to pick out why the soundtrack doesn't quite sound right. If somebody points out that the soundtrack sounds odd, Lucasfilm can simply say that it's an old soundtrack and they made "creative" changes to it. But, crossing the music in the surround channels is something you can't write off to old soundtrack elements or creative choices, somebody messed up plain and simple. It's all the more galling because the disc is supposedly THX certified, Lucasfilm employs some of the best sound engineers in the industry, and a classic film of this stature that has been at the top of the DVD wishlist since the format came out deserves some attention to detail. Judging by the tone of Lucas' AP interview, it now really seems like he just got them out because he's trying to maximize his revenue before video piracy takes hold.

    When the Back To The Future trilogy came out, some perceptive posters on boards like this one noticed that the widescreen aspect ratio on parts 2 and 3 was incorrect. Universal sold thousands of the defective discs, but they wound up reissuing those discs with the correct aspect ratio later on, and put together an exchange program where people who wanted the corrected discs could exchange for them. I would not have noticed the framing problem unless someone pointed it out, but now that I have seen the corrected discs, a considerable amount of the side image did get truncated in the original issue. I presume that it's a lot less expensive to implement an exchange program like the one for BTTF that placates the home theater enthusiasts, rather than issue a general recall. Especially if these issues are things that most people won't notice unless they're looking for them.

    I would hope that if Star Wars gets redone, they fix some of the other audio problems on that disc, because it's not just the music channel reversal that people are complaining about.
  • 09-23-2004, 11:26 AM
    recoveryone
    YOU saw that too Woo, I watch it lastnight and it caught me off guard with the new Darth Vader at the end.
  • 09-23-2004, 12:56 PM
    alumpkin
    Thanks Wooch
    I appreciate the info Wooch. I was not aware that an exchange might be possible... I guess we will see. I think I will keep and open my trilogy boxset and in the worst case situation, have to buy another edition down the road. I have heard lots of good things about the extras disc, so that to me is almost worth the boxset itself.
  • 09-23-2004, 01:02 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kexodusc
    You're 100% right Wooch...I'm a big Star Wars fan, and will defend the changes, revisionism, and the merit of Ep's 1-3, but this is inexcusable.

    I hope to God the excuse is the master tapes were damaged. That would explain some of the dreadful issues. If it's anything less than that, I am 100% pissed off.

    My sentiments exactly. If the elements are damaged, that's fine. But, so much of what I heard on that soundtrack just seemed to me more like sloppy work (Han's dialog in the Cantina scene, for example).

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kexodusc
    I don't understand why the Lightsabers employ soo much LFE in EP I and II and next to none in EP 4,5, and 6...oh well.

    More nitpicking -- notice that the lightsabers in the entire trilogy now look really inconsistent? What's with Luke's lightsaber that can't figure out if it's blue or green? Or what about Vader's cool looking pink lightsaber? Supposedly they did a lot of clean up work with the lightsabers, but some of the changes just look stupid.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kexodusc
    But at this point I have to wonder, did Lucas even watch Star Wars? Not since Alien 3 have I been so disappointed in a re-master. And at least Alien 3 had a history of problems to begin with. At first, I was just so freakin' excited to own these on DVD finally that I ignorantly overlooked these terrible flaws.
    I'm no studio engineer, but surely it could have been better.

    As one of my favorite movies ever, this long awaited DVD release deserved so much better.

    As notorious a perfectionist as Lucas supposedly is, I'm really surprised that a high profile release like this got out with as many issues in the soundtrack as there are. People are tripping over themselves to praise the picture quality, but on my TV Star Wars looks really dark in a lot of scenes. I'm just hoping that some reissued disc is made available soon because now that I'm aware of these problems and have started keying in on them, it really detracts from my enjoyment of the movie.
  • 09-23-2004, 01:54 PM
    kexodusc
    Actually Wooch, the visuals seemed fine on mine, with the exception of a greenish lightsaber in the scene with Luke, Obiwan and the remote thingy in the Falcon.
    Vaders saber looked eerily red whenever I saw it. The desert scenes are especially good now.
    Could be variances in TV's, equipment etc, causing this?

    I'm still very, very happy with the job overall. Just the darn Mickey Mouse audio track on Star Wars, which I didn't notice got crappy until they reached the Death Star.
    I'll reserve my final judgement until I see how Lucas deals with this.
    And ultimately, it's probably not fair to blame Lucas...I'm sure he had very little to do with this.
    Take solace in the fact that Lucas probably has made it so the goof that's responsible never works in Holywood again.

    Or continue blaming THX (which is kind of fun).
  • 09-23-2004, 03:39 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Actually Wooch, the visuals seemed fine on mine, with the exception of a greenish lightsaber in the scene with Luke, Obiwan and the remote thingy in the Falcon.
    Vaders saber looked eerily red whenever I saw it. The desert scenes are especially good now.
    Could be variances in TV's, equipment etc, causing this?

    I dunno, it just seems that in the effort to get the lightsabers to look more consistent, they wound up getting some of the scenes looking bizarre instead. This is a nitpick, but then again somebody at Lucasfilm saw fit to redo those scenes. Vader's lightsabre at times looks a lot less red than I remember.

    My TV is calibrated, and Star Wars still looked dark to me. They really saturated the colors, so it does look more vivid, but a lot of scenes just didn't seem bright enough to me. I did not notice this with either Empire or Jedi.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kexodusc
    I'm still very, very happy with the job overall. Just the darn Mickey Mouse audio track on Star Wars, which I didn't notice got crappy until they reached the Death Star.
    I'll reserve my final judgement until I see how Lucas deals with this.
    And ultimately, it's probably not fair to blame Lucas...I'm sure he had very little to do with this.
    Take solace in the fact that Lucas probably has made it so the goof that's responsible never works in Holywood again.

    Or continue blaming THX (which is kind of fun).

    I think everybody who thinks more QC should have gone into the Star Wars DVD should simply go to THX's DVD quality feedback page. Obviously they feel that THX certified stands for something, so we should let them know that despite Star Wars meeting THEIR quality standards, it does not meet OUR standards.

    http://www.thx.com/mod/products/dvdProbs.html

    Oh, and for a laugh, take a look at THX's press release detailing out the "advanced QC processes" and "new standard for presentation excellence" with the Star Wars DVDs. If this is their definition of advanced QC, give me the low tech quality control approach please!

    http://www.thx.com/news/20040923A.html
  • 09-24-2004, 05:56 AM
    kexodusc
    OMG...This is what happens when you hire external marketing agents to write your press releases for you.
    Maybe I have to listen to the damn thing using the THX DSP mode on my receiver for it to sound right?
    Too bad, the Yammie's Sci-Fi mode kicks THX's a$$ anyday.
  • 09-24-2004, 07:41 AM
    eqm
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Thanx for reminding me, I totally forgot that with a real THX system, the music is supposed to be in sync between the front and back speakers, but the sound effects are supposed to come from opposite sides. Lucasfilm is just smarter than all of us, they're actually doing this according to how sensory information travels through the brain and matching the sound elements to how that information gets processed.

    What we hear in our left ear gets processed through our right brain hemisphere, and vice versa. Music is an emotional experience and is therefore processed in the right hemisphere, whereas dialog and sound effects are logical constructs that our left brain hemisphere processes.

    By reversing the music tracks in the surrounds and keeping the logical balance with the dialog and effects, that movie is better optimizing our synaptic energy. Now that I think about it, it's actually Jedi, Empire, and every other DVD in my collection that's defective. Star Wars is the ONLY one that got it right!

    you need to throw in the word "quantum" in there somewhere if you want me to buy your argument!!! :p :D :p ;)
  • 09-24-2004, 07:45 AM
    eqm
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Woochifer
    My TV is calibrated, and Star Wars still looked dark to me. They really saturated the colors, so it does look more vivid, but a lot of scenes just didn't seem bright enough to me. I did not notice this with either Empire or Jedi.

    Saw the exact same thing...my mits diamond is calibrated as well so i know it's not the "red push" b/c i don't see it on other dvds.
  • 09-24-2004, 02:41 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Checked out Star Wars out last night
    I began watching the series last night beginning with Star Wars. Overall I was VERY impressed with this DVD. Visually there was nothing to complain about whatsoever. Contrast is excellent, as is color rendition and purity. Shadow detail was excellent, and colors that appeared washed out, or indistinct on my widescreen VHS copy of this movie shown through vibrantly. Picture quality get a A+ from me.

    The sound was a mixed bag for me. It is very clear to me some sound effects where added to the mix. The problem was it was at times easy to tell. The clear well focused new effects occasionally sounded out of place next to the blunted, unfocused old effects. Some effect were taken out, or lowered in volume. I was glad for the extra punch the LFE gives the mix, but occasionally it blew the rest of the mix away by sheer volume. I would have wished for more balance as it keeps the mix more cohesive.

    What blew me away about this mix was the smaller things I noticed. Like the use of the scenes room acoustics in conjuction with the dialog. As the actors face the camera for close ups, their voices are dry and close. But as they turn away, more of the rooms acoustics come into play which gives outstanding soundfield perspective. Imaging was also superb, with great use of the soundfield to punctuate sound effects. Phantom imaging was all over the place including half left, and half right of center front, side walls, and center rear. Ocassionally the music seemed to sound congested when playing FFF during climaxes. I would give this soundtrack a A-/B+

    Overall I really enjoyed seeing this version of Star Wars. If this was what GL wanted to create in the first place, then thumbs up to him.
  • 09-26-2004, 02:03 PM
    Dusty Chalk
    Alright, we watched it last night, and it really isn't that obvious. My friends, neither of whom has seen the Special Editions yet, were really unimpressed with the additional scenes. They didn't like Jabba when Han Solo runs into him at the Millenium Falcon, they thought he looked "cheesy", and of course they didn't like that Greedo shot first (and missed, at point blank range). They still enjoyed the transfer, as did I, and the audio problems weren't that obvious.

    And I totally forgot that they turned the explosion sideways at the end. What was the point of that?
  • 09-28-2004, 01:40 PM
    RGA
    All these problems on Star Wars. Well hey they will get their billions selling them all and in 4 years they can come out with a NEW and Improved digitally remastered and glitch free version with a new documentary and preview for parts 7,8 and 9 and they will put on the original non doctored added F/X versions --- the sheep will dump their current version and pay another $55.00Cdn for the new one.

    How many Terminator 2. versions are we at? 3.
    Exorcist at least 3
    Dawn of the Dead --3
    Halloween --- yes 4 versions of that one
    Aliens at least -- 2

    And a whole pile have 2 versions.

    You just wait - new Star Wars boxed set within 5 years or sold separately the original versions. Hell If I were selling DVD's this ios a great way to make moeny. Sell the same person the same movie 2 times maybe 3 if I'm lucky.

    So now I wait for the Suped up versions - I know it's coming. I held out on Dawn of the Dead because I knew it was coming and it's about as good as it can get. Same for the English Patient which I had to wait 4 years for but hey - I was lucky to have owned Laser-disc so I knew about all the extended versions and documentaries of a lot of thesemovies - so forget buying the bare bones one.

    I only did that with two movies Shawshank Redemption and Goodfellas which I know will eventually come in suped up versions. Goodfellas already and Shawshank soon or later.
  • 09-28-2004, 02:40 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    All these problems on Star Wars. Well hey they will get their billions selling them all and in 4 years they can come out with a NEW and Improved digitally remastered and glitch free version with a new documentary and preview for parts 7,8 and 9 and they will put on the original non doctored added F/X versions --- the sheep will dump their current version and pay another $55.00Cdn for the new one.

    How many Terminator 2. versions are we at? 3.
    Exorcist at least 3
    Dawn of the Dead --3
    Halloween --- yes 4 versions of that one
    Aliens at least -- 2

    And a whole pile have 2 versions.

    You just wait - new Star Wars boxed set within 5 years or sold separately the original versions. Hell If I were selling DVD's this ios a great way to make moeny. Sell the same person the same movie 2 times maybe 3 if I'm lucky.

    So now I wait for the Suped up versions - I know it's coming. I held out on Dawn of the Dead because I knew it was coming and it's about as good as it can get. Same for the English Patient which I had to wait 4 years for but hey - I was lucky to have owned Laser-disc so I knew about all the extended versions and documentaries of a lot of thesemovies - so forget buying the bare bones one.

    I only did that with two movies Shawshank Redemption and Goodfellas which I know will eventually come in suped up versions. Goodfellas already and Shawshank soon or later.


    If you go through the production gallery on the bonus disc, there are pictures from the backstory between Luke and Biggs (his childhood friend who was one of the rebel pilots). Koo Stark (followers of the British royal family might remember her) was in a supporting role here, but the entire story thread got chopped out of the final edit. Rumor was that this backstory would make its way into the DVD, but it did not, so we know that there's a lot of deleted scenes and other story threads that are still waiting to be unearthed.

    However, I've read before that Lucas has been unimpressed with the DVD format, and was more intrigued by possibilities for HD. But, apparently the piracy issue has given him second thoughts. I actually doubt that Lucasfilm will put out another DVD set of Star Wars. The only scenario I can think of where he'll come out with another DVD edition would come after Episode III comes out. Anything else will likely wait for the HD video discs to hit the market.

    As far as special edition DVDs go, you're actually taking a risk in a lot of cases bypassing the initial release, especially if it's already a two-disc set. Keep in mind that when DVDs get rereleased, they don't always include MORE -- they often get pushed back into single-disc editions. WalMart's actually been pressuing studios into eliminating the special editions in order to keep the prices going down.

    Just look at Toy Story, Gladiator, Lawrence of Arabia, Shrek, Cast Away, and Close Encounters. Those are some examples of DVDs that got downsized when they were rereleased. It's all a game of hedging your bets, but it doesn't always come out in your favor when you wait.
  • 09-28-2004, 05:59 PM
    Woochifer
    P.S. Shawshank Redemption special edition DVD comes out next week.

    If you're looking for movies that are likely to get some kind of special edition treatment, just look for discs that were originally issued in nonanamorphic widescreen. With the 16x9 TV format starting to take hold, nonanamorphic transfers are unacceptable because they leave blank areas on the side AND black bars at the top and bottom. As more and more broadcast channels go to HD, the studios will have to do a HD transfer at some point. The HD transfers are increasingly what get used to create the anamorphic widescreen DVDs, and most of the early nonanamorphic widescreen DVDs were done with older masters used with VHS or Laserdisc editions.
  • 09-28-2004, 07:52 PM
    RGA
    Firstly the original dvd's had BOTH widescreen and Full screen - one on each side. Then they had dual layer discs then they got rid of giving you both formats and assumed that it was LD buyers who were all movie buffs and wanted widescreen. Joe Public hates widescreen(want proof look at what Blockbuster started to do) so now they come out with 2 versions of the exact same movie(tell me that stores don't like carrying multiple formats on the post about SACD well this is multiple formats???). They SHOULD be putting both versions on the discs instead of wasting a side. Of course some will counter that costs more BS.

    It's only about profit boys - they deliberately give crap versions the first go round and then entice you with the supreme edition later on. And even I know this and they have got me a few times. I waited for T-2 the ultimate Edition and now there is a new one. Luckily I'm not at all anal about the video quality. I bought LD for the widescreen format and I buy DVD for the widescreen format. Some of the bonus features are interesting but I don;t really have the time to listen to every running commentary - maybe 4 out of the 100+ that have commentary's I ever bothered with. I personally like themovie screen picture for its higher resolution than DVD and shimmering details so as to why I could care less about home video picture. But i respect some are into it.

    If people of the world united and REFUSED to buy the Star Wars Boxed set at $55.00 you'd see within a month the price drop to $15.00. If you notice how many DVD's start at $25.00 and about 6months later they're selling it for $17.00 or less. Schindler's List boxed set started at $87.00 CDN - a month later was $39.00 and now it's $32.99Cdn. Or Ghostbusters for $37.00 and now $12.50 a year or so later.

    E.T. Boxed set on the other hand went the other way. Supply and demand I suppose. I just wish when a total garbage edition of a movie comes out NOBODY buy it. It would be in the cheap bin in a week and the supreme edition out in a month.
  • 09-28-2004, 09:37 PM
    Woochifer
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    Firstly the original dvd's had BOTH widescreen and Full screen - one on each side. Then they had dual layer discs then they got rid of giving you both formats and assumed that it was LD buyers who were all movie buffs and wanted widescreen. Joe Public hates widescreen(want proof look at what Blockbuster started to do) so now they come out with 2 versions of the exact same movie(tell me that stores don't like carrying multiple formats on the post about SACD well this is multiple formats???). They SHOULD be putting both versions on the discs instead of wasting a side. Of course some will counter that costs more BS.

    The scenarios that you're painting out are old news. Not all of the early releases were the flipper discs, and not all flipper discs had one side for widescreen and the other for P&S (a lot early DVDs were flippers due to length). Dual layered discs allowed for more bits to get onto one side, which eliminated the need to flip the disc if a movie crept over about 100 minutes. I haven't seen a flipper disc in at least two years, and most movies that come out in both widescreen and P&S have been coming out as separate editions. BTW, widescreen and P&S discs are NOT multiple formats, since they are both DVD format and fit into the same shelf space. Retailers hate carrying multiple FORMATS, such as having to stock VHS, Laserdisc, D-VHS, AND DVD copies of the same movie, since that entails creating separate sections, different sized shelf spaces, etc.

    Blockbuster has been solidly in the widescreen camp after a write-in campaign a couple of years ago by their customers convinced the corporate brass to order more widescreen editions. If Joe Public is so against widescreen then why did I read that the widescreen copies of Star Wars account for about 80% of the sales at WalMart of all places?

    HDTV and big screen sales are booming, and virtually all of them are now widescreen. The only way to futureproof your DVD collection in an era of 16:9 TVs is to go with anamorphic widescreen, and the message is starting to sink in with more consumers. 4:3 TVs have been relegated to direct view models, and that's the fastest declining part of the market. Check the big screen TV section at your local store -- good luck trying to find a 4:3 model. Mitsubishi has already phased out 4:3 completely, Toshiba makes only one 4:3 big screen model, and other manufacturers are similarly phasing out 4:3 with their bigscreens and HDTVs P&S will soon be a thing of the past with the DVD market, as more and more 4:3 TVs get replaced.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    It's only about profit boys - they deliberately give crap versions the first go round and then entice you with the supreme edition later on. And even I know this and they have got me a few times. I waited for T-2 the ultimate Edition and now there is a new one. Luckily I'm not at all anal about the video quality. I bought LD for the widescreen format and I buy DVD for the widescreen format. Some of the bonus features are interesting but I don;t really have the time to listen to every running commentary - maybe 4 out of the 100+ that have commentary's I ever bothered with. I personally like themovie screen picture for its higher resolution than DVD and shimmering details so as to why I could care less about home video picture. But i respect some are into it.

    Or they put out the special edition with all the extras first, and then put out the stripped down edition later on. You have no way of knowing for sure which way things will turn.

    Once you get a larger TV and/or a 16:9 TV and calibrate it, you WILL get a lot more into the image quality. Things like compression artifacts and edge enhancement haloing show up very clearly on larger TVs and HDTVs. A lot of the early DVDs were mastered from Laserdisc or VHS masters, and the flaws in the picture quality are very obvious. If you're watching a movie on a smaller standard 4:3 TV, then the picture quality flaws are less obvious.

    I prefer seeing movies on the big screen as well, but not all of the movies that I want to see are showing on a big screen at any given time. Given that revival theaters and second run cinemas are a disappearing species, home video is really the only way to see a lot of movies. A lot of the reissuing of discs that goes on happens because most of the first generation DVDs were not anamorphic widescreen. On a 16:9 TV, that's a big problem all the way around, because you're stuck with either a truncated image or a zoomed image with severely reduced resolution. Anamorphic gives you the full widescreen coverage plus enhanced resolution.

    I don't like the double dipping that the studios have done, but a lot of the rereleasing that goes on is now about deleting a special edition and issuing a movie-only disc in its place. It happened with Gladiator, Close Encounters, and several others that I've seen. And that's an unresolved issue in the market right now, and the studios are trying both practices to see which approach consumers prefer. Like it or not, there are plenty of consumers out there who are only interested in the movie and could care less about the bonus features. Other consumers will only buy the movie when the prices roll back, and the stripped down reissues are the studios' way of pushing the price as far down as possible. WalMart for one has been putting a lot of pressure on studios to eliminate special edition releases and focus on making the DVDs as cheap as possible.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    If people of the world united and REFUSED to buy the Star Wars Boxed set at $55.00 you'd see within a month the price drop to $15.00. If you notice how many DVD's start at $25.00 and about 6months later they're selling it for $17.00 or less. Schindler's List boxed set started at $87.00 CDN - a month later was $39.00 and now it's $32.99Cdn. Or Ghostbusters for $37.00 and now $12.50 a year or so later.

    Simple supply and demand, so I don't know why you're complaining about prices dropping on movies a few months after the release date. That kind of tiered pricing system has ALWAYS been a part of home entertainment, whether you're talking about movies, music, or video games. In the VHS era, tapes would cost $90 when they first came out (i.e. rental pricing), and then drop down to about $25 a few months later, and then maybe a year after that go down to about $15. Back when second run theaters were popular, they would get movies a few weeks after their release and price tickets at about half what first run theaters charge. Video games cost about $50 when they first come out, and after about a year, they typically drop down to $20. CDs have a longer shelf life usually, but once they move off the chart and demand decreases, prices on those too get rolled back.

    The other approach to keep in mind is that if a title comes out and nobody buys it, they often get returned to the distributor and deleted from inventory. Any remaining inventory on shelves might get a price reduction, but not by the margin that you project. Plus, we're talking about Star Wars, which has been the most requested DVD title since the format's inception.

    The other thing about DVD pricing is that new releases are typically cheapest on the week that they come out, and then the price goes up for a while until the distributor rolls back the wholesale price, and when that occurs completely depends on the movie and the distributor. I picked up Star Wars last week for $36, which works out to $12 per movie. Even budget priced movie-only DVDs aren't typically priced that low. If that's ripping off the consumer, then we might as well shut down the entire DVD market, because that Star Wars DVD set is hardly a stripped down movie-only edition.

    My complaints about the Star Wars DVD set have more to do with the tinkering that Lucasfilm did with the movies and the problems in the audio track for the first movie. Universal did the right thing by implenting an exchange program when the Back To The Future trilogy was released with the wrong aspect ratio on two of the discs. I'm hoping that Lucasfilm will do the same thing for Star Wars.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    E.T. Boxed set on the other hand went the other way. Supply and demand I suppose. I just wish when a total garbage edition of a movie comes out NOBODY buy it. It would be in the cheap bin in a week and the supreme edition out in a month.

    As I pointed out, the alternative is the loaded edition coming out first, and then the movie-only edition coming out later on. A true garbage edition would be a nonanamorphic widescreen movie-only disc struck from an old Laserdisc master, and nowadays, you don't get any of that anymore.
  • 09-30-2004, 04:26 PM
    RGA
    With E.T. Both editions came out at the same time. No doubt they would like to bring out 3 disc boxed set editions to get people to buy all three movies in one fell swoop.

    I know that the reason why I won;t buy the Star Wars set is that while I loved Empire Strikes Back and the Star Wars would be a nice edition the third one was pretty pathetic trying to sell kids Ewoks and largely had a disinterested performance from Harrison Ford.

    I'm sure these companies are not stupid - they look back at the previous sales of all movies on VHS and Laserdisc and attempt to see what sells and what does not. If the films were part of a trilogy if it was pathetic they probably would rather include it in a set and get a sale of the set rather than trying to sell it individually. Indiana Jones, the Godfather, and Back to the future all IMO have one weak film(or much weaker film) in the trilogy that on its on no doubt would not sell as well. Raiders and Last Crusade no doubt would sell better than Doom. The first 2 Godfather films over the third entry and I suspect only the first Back to the Future Film would sell very well. So try and box them and sell all three.

    Then later they will come out with separated editions. They bring out expensive editions of some films - try and get the sales and then release stripped versions later - this happens a LOT LESS than the reverse or a dual edition release like Schindler's List or E.T. where both options come out and let the consumer decide.

    I didn't mind so much the first few years of DVD that plain editions came out. The format was new blah blah blah. But Dawn of the Dead 1979 came out and I bet lots of fans would loved to have had the new 4 disc boxed edition for $20.00 more. The edition they brought out in around March or May is probably fine and all and better than the original release - but I think it would be better busines ethics to tell customers with a big fat display tag that Dawn of the Dead Boxed set is coming September 7(which I knew about a year before but was exceedingly difficult to find out - It's very frustrating to a lot of folks who bought one they thought was going to be a great addition only to find out these companies deliberately held back to get a second sale.

    There are a few like Lawrence of Arabia that had the delux edition first - but at $40.00 I give them credit for not drpping the price to $12.99 when they realized it was not selling. If I paid $40.00 and a month later they dropped it to $12.99 I'd be pretty choked. So coming out with a stripped down edition for $12.00 well that wouldn't bother me because I can still say I got something extra.

    I don;t know about the laws in the States but in Canada when you put a sale price on something and list it regular $95.99 on sale for $75.99 it has to mean something and by law you are required to sell the item for $95.99 for a certain period of time. Otherwise the sale price means nothing because it was NEVER at the regular price.

    Future Shop up here(owned by BB) is technically pretty bad. They listed Schindler's List at $95.00 on sale for $79.00 a month later they dropped the price to $35.99 and the regular price to $44.99. But here's the thing - at no time did they ever sell the disc for $95.99 nor have they at $44.99. Of course the government can;t check this they leave companies nearly to self-regulate.

    I am glad I buy used. Hopefully I can get the onely Star Wars movie that is worth getting - Empire at my used place for $8.00. Just have to wait a few months.