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  1. #26
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hifitommy
    MY experience amounts to plenty as does that of many others here and elsewhere. scientific facts are many times established by observation. my experience is that of observation and i observe that CDPs sound different from one another.
    Those scientific observations differ from yours as there are controls in place to reduce the possibility of errant results, unlike your experience, which has none. There are also checks and balances in science, if you remember the "cold fusion" fiasco.

    -Bruce

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsyhick
    Why does a $2000 player sound better than a $200 player? I do not doubt that the expensive one sounds better, but I want to know why. I find it hard to believe that one CD player will read 1's and 0's better than the other. A 1 is a 1 and a 0 is a 0. How can the cheaper player screw that up? So I am guessing that the following determine the performance: the Digital to Analog converter, connectors, and the way it amps the signal to line level. But there must be something else involved to jump a players price to $2000. Can any of you audiphilles out there elucidate this topic. Thanks.

    One final note: why spend $2000 on a CD player if there is a cheaper SACD player.

    GH
    If there are differences, they are not related to price. There are many cheap and expensive CD players sound so similar that there is very very hard to differentiate any of them. If possible at all.

    The performance differences can be related to the D/A conversion. During extreme testing conditions it is possible to verify differences more easily, but during normal music listening these differences disappear.

    There are CD players that deliberately change the frequency response that are audibly different. I've noticed that some cheaper DVD players may give high frequent sounds from the motor drive (mechanical sounds, not through the speakers), which is audible during quiet passages in the music.

    Some players have higher production costs due to "nice package". If the looks are important, then this usually gives higher price.

    T

  3. #28
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    And that establishes what then, beyond the ability to play a disc? -Bruce
    Heard how?

    You failed to grasp the concept of "hearing" an audio component. Tell me, what do you do with yours?

    rw

  4. #29
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Yet you make claims of superior sound that cannot be verified, so what good are they, then?
    There are a number of people in the world who use other's educated opinions as a starting point for narrowing down their choices for devices that defy quantification by simplistic metrics.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    And if they don't, how can you explain the sucess of Consumer Reports?
    The same way you explain the success of McDonald's. The same way you explain the success of Wal-Mart. The same way you explain the success of... Do you get the picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    You make so many claims and that's the problem, until validated are useless to be used to establish fact.
    I guess where we differ is that I don't think of others as mindless automatons, incapable of independent thought. It is for others to freely validate or not, depending upon their circumstances.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 05-15-2004 at 04:34 PM.

  5. #30
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    Power supplies

    and grounding have a profound influence on players. In order to increase resolution you need to reduce the noise floor. At the same time making sure the supply is well grounded. Electronics in order to have a low noise floor need well built power supplies. These supplies are both costly and esoteric. Vibration control is also extremely important. The higher end units go to extreme measures to combat these problems. Like all things at the fringe of performance you must pay for it.

  6. #31
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    So E-Stat,

    what are the differences you percieve between the Toshiba and the GamuT? In the GamuT CD1, the f response falls -1.1 dB at 20 kHz, around -0.35 dB at 10 kHz and so on using non-balanced outputs. Using pre-emphasis the player's f response starts to fall at 1 kHz with 0.2-0.3 dB drop at 3-4 kHz.

    Although distortion is very low, this result is far from "high-end" performance.

    The Toshiba 9200 may not compare to your Toshiba model but it is basically flat, with the exception of the low bass (-0.5 dB at 10 Hz). Distorsion is, similar to GamuT, very low. But all things equal the GamuT falls short of the Toshiba 9200. Now the Toshiba 9200 is quite expensive. The old Musical Fidelity X-24K DAC, cheaper, measures equal to or better than the Toshiba.

    I have made tests using the X-24K dac against 3 different players, Marantz CD6000, a Toshiba and an Audiolab. No audible difference could be established among 4 listeners, except for a difference attributed to 0.5 dB level difference.

    The speakers were DIY active three-way speakers with low distorsion at moderate listening levels, 1 dB frequency response 40 Hz-19 kHz, damping panels in behind speakers effective down ?100 Hz.. Amps were Audio Analogue, Rotel, NAD, parametric EQ of one standing wave (47 Hz).

    T

  7. #32
    RGA
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    blahblahblahblahblah

    Man alive. Cd players are pre-preamplifiers - if you think an amp sounds different then you must believe a cd player could sound different...at least most are consistant.

    See Hi-fi choice - a panel of listeners - even some from the manufacturer's presidents themselves sit in and review gear(and don't always choose their own as best - now that's funny). They listen to everything blind and level matched. Not a test - but close than any other publication. They do find differences:

    http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_l...category=CDPLY

  8. #33
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    cold fusion

    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Those scientific observations differ from yours as there are controls in place to reduce the possibility of errant results, unlike your experience, which has none. There are also checks and balances in science, if you remember the "cold fusion" fiasco.

    -Bruce
    i am a nuclear medicine technologist, and yes, i have conducted scientific experiments, so you can stop the pseudo-scientist stance.

    nobody is trying to dupe the public out of great quantities of money here. wadia cd players (about 12K for transport and d/a) DO sound better than the low priced spread. for those that have the money, it is worth it. my friend who is a ucla valedictorian graduate of ucla medical school in radiology has one and numerous other COSTLY items. he has probably attended more LIVE music than you have listened to recorded.

    he owned infinity servo statik speakers serial #001 bought from his friend arnie nudell. i assure you, if it was BS, he would have been the first to bark so. his current speakers are duntech sovereigns with rowland and krell electronics.

    believe what you will, the high priced spread DOES taste better. sometimes it can be had for less, but not often. eventually, the trickle down effect works too.
    ...regards...tr

  9. #34
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    RGA,

    I don't "believe" anything. If an amp "sounds" or rather "feels" different due to a fall of -2 dB at 8 Hz, most here would never be able to detect this, right? And they would not care.

    Likewise, if some CD players are audible different during extreme testing conditions, what is the probablity that people hear these effects during normal conditions? Also all audible differences are easily explaied by measurements. There is no "magic" involved.

    Now the GamuT CD1 does not measure flat, especially with rare records that have de-emphasis. It is nothing magic with this.

    The HiFi Choice tests does not reveal any data of testing method or the number of correct choices, so what is there to discuss?

    T

  10. #35
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    there are reasons to buy a ss 2K cdp..

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsyhick
    Why does a $2000 player sound better than a $200 player? I do not doubt that the expensive one sounds better, but I want to know why. I find it hard to believe that one CD player will read 1's and 0's better than the other. A 1 is a 1 and a 0 is a 0. How can the cheaper player screw that up? So I am guessing that the following determine the performance: the Digital to Analog converter, connectors, and the way it amps the signal to line level. But there must be something else involved to jump a players price to $2000. Can any of you audiphilles out there elucidate this topic. Thanks.

    One final note: why spend $2000 on a CD player if there is a cheaper SACD player.

    GH
    But those reasons are confined to esthetics and pride of ownership. This is a weak example but Motor Trend did an article recently comparing a Pontiac GTO to a Mercedes CLK55 AMG. Both cars look alike (to the uninitiated) , perform similarly and will probably wear comparably. The Mercedes costs more than twice as much as the Pontiac and will soak up many thousands more in routine maintenance. Which is the better car? Most people would say the Mercedes because that is the popular perception. If performance alone is the deciding factor, the Mercedes is clearly a foolish buy. With 'high end' audio product, speakers excluded, you're usually paying for higher quality materials, esthetics and pride of ownership, not necessarily performance. To answer your question, there is no reason to pay 2K for a cdp if performance is all that matters to you. Buy what you want based on features, buy from a reputable manufacturer and consider a DVD player rather than a cdp. CDP's are obsolete.

  11. #36
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    There will always be people who will try to optomize every aspect of an idea in the belief that the addition of even small incremental improvements in each of a large a number of factors will add up to an audible improvement. In the case of digital compact discs, this is a naive and false assumption. The compact disc system has several inherent aspects to it which cause it to either function perfectly or not at all at least in the digital domain. That is one of its many great advantages. Of the differences that matter, the ability to read damaged discs, to quickly access different tracks, and to be immune to outside vibrations are important. Fortunately, these players have evolved to the point where even the least expensive of them do very well in these respects. Then there is the D/A converter. All of them are invariably semiconductor chips and which one you choose may result in small differences in sound. Linearity of conversion, lack of background noise, freedom of distortion, flatness of frequency response all play factors but again, even the least expensive of them today do a fine job. Finally, the handling of the analog signal meaning the choice of which active devices, transistors or tubes, which ones, how they are used, can also have some effect. Yet the truth is that these differences are small and it is highly questionable if any one is actually better than another. The real differences in sound I have noticed other than some awful sounding early models are minor differences in frequency response and some of them may be deliberate. For someone like me who will patiently equalize every component individually to get what sounds to me like flat response, these differences are unimportant. To others who won't even utter the word equalizer, depending on how they compliment the sound of the rest of the rest of their sound system, any one might sound better than another.

    The cost of manufacturing electronic equipment and therefore the price does not always reflect the quality. This is especially true when units are made in relatively small numbers by people who have to pay the high cost of American or European labor and who use subcontractors in these counties. The same or equalivent quality can be obtained at much lower cost by mass production which is the expertise of large manufacturers. Using overseas labor in third world countries helps keep costs low too.

  12. #37
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hifitommy
    i am a nuclear medicine technologist, and yes, i have conducted scientific experiments, so you can stop the pseudo-scientist stance.
    You still haven't established that there are any controls on your "listening."

    nobody is trying to dupe the public out of great quantities of money here. wadia cd players (about 12K for transport and d/a) DO sound better than the low priced spread.
    Based on what?

    he owned infinity servo statik speakers serial #001 bought from his friend arnie nudell. i assure you, if it was BS, he would have been the first to bark so. his current speakers are duntech sovereigns with rowland and krell electronics.
    So.

    So far, I still see nothing that establishes fact in all your ranting.

    -Bruce

  13. #38
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Heard how?

    You failed to grasp the concept of "hearing" an audio component. Tell me, what do you do with yours?

    rw
    And you fail to grasp the concept of what it takes to establish fact from fiction.

    -Bruce

  14. #39
    Forum Regular hifitommy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    You still haven't established that there are any controls on your "listening."
    Based on what? So far, I still see nothing that establishes fact in all your ranting.
    -Bruce
    you have to be FREAKING DEAF!! go listen. some things dont require hirsch-houck labs to verify. this is one of them.

    instead of posting here, you should be rereading you consumer reports back issues. that will reinforce your 'BELIEFS'. then you and emptycrafts can sit and nod in agreement at each other.
    ...regards...tr

  15. #40
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_A
    RGA,

    what is the probablity that people hear these effects during normal conditions?
    T
    A DBT is unrelated to normal listening conditions - you do at least realize this right? This was part of first year psychology testing and highly debated in subject testing in brain research.

    Cd players measure very different ly in the audible band between 20hz and 20khz - whether you'll always notice it or whether you will in a DBT to a statistically significant number and whether you will hear it in a non testing environment over a longer periodoftime is not correlational because such a test has not been executed.

    ***The HiFi Choice tests does not reveal any data of testing method or the number of correct choices, so what is there to discuss***

    But I never said it was a test...nor do they - they are not testing people to see IF there is a difference - that would add a stressor on the listener and then not be valid because that is not the way people normally listen to their equipment. The difference is assumed to be there. Then the cd players or amplifiers are level matched are hidden from view(and speakers too for that matter) and a panel of reviewers evaluate the sound on the sound's merit(s) by taking notes. They compare several models in a general price range. Then taking the notes for sound quality the veil is lifted and the prices revealed - they have to review the units on sight as well to evaluate features and ease of se and build quality. They assign a build quality sound quality and Value rating - ie; how expensive it is in relation to what you get elsewhere. Which is why from time to time even their usual favorites like Creek or Arcam get rubished.

    They also provide extensive measurements - They are a magazine so they don't give you much info on the web-site - and it is usually several issues old on the site.

    They have made notes on certain cd players that if not level matched may come out sounding a lot better but because they did a blind level matched audition those aspects would not swing the favour of the listener. Not all panelists agree on the sound of the system in the same room at the same listening level. One person will think X speaker has excellent bass while another thinks it is overly coloured.

    This is not a knock on DB testing - it is a knock on the conclusions being drawn from their use...and anyone with any knowledge of the study of testing human subjects knows all this or should - those that only know statistical models don't know enough to speak intelligently on this subject.

  16. #41
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    RGA,

    DBTs are NOT unrelated to normal listening situations. Turn down the treble, and you will hear the effect during open as well as DBT conditions.There is a lot in the research of audiology and psychology on long term and short term audibility. For a given signal it is much easier to do fast switching to hear a difference. What might be the case for long-term listening is that certain signals or music passages might reveal any faults more easily than others. That's why certain tests such as low-bass content, low-level recorded signals at high volume and transients are more revealing than streaming music and is often chosen for testings made by the Swedish Audio Technical Society. Again differences are not heard if you play a signal one day and change to another one the other day. But comparing the signals with very short intervals makes it obvious. And yes, I've done it, it is easier to hear the difference with fast-swicthing than during long-term listening and slow switching.

    Regarding HiFi choice's tests:

    Why do they "assume" a difference from start? Since they assume a difference and describe them by subjective impressions, they would really be able to do an objective test and verify this, don't you agree? Why don't they use a reference to compare with too see if there is a difference? If there is a difference, they can attribute the difference as bright, dull or whatever characteristics they hear. This would be the most objective procedure. As such there is nothing from their tests that really imply an audible difference.

    Or why don't they have a test leader that makes a similar test with only 3 players and repeat the test randomly with 10 trials (3 x 10 in a random fashion). If they would score identical in their subjective impressions on each player 10 times, they could validate whether the test method works or not. As it is now there is nothing saying that their method is reliable.

    T

  17. #42
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    And you fail to grasp the concept of what it takes to establish fact from fiction.
    Ah, your usual dodge from my question. Let's try again. What do you do with your audio equipment if not to hear it? Watch the LCD display ? Just like to push buttons?

    rw

  18. #43
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    But, some CD players have such pretty lights. :-)

    -Chris


    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Nice political dodge from my question. Let's try again. What do you do with your audio equipment? Watch the LEDs ?

    rw

  19. #44
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WmAx
    But, some CD players have such pretty lights. :-)
    Actually, that's the reason I spent $3k on my GamuT CD-1. It has very pretty blue LEDs.

    rw

  20. #45
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Certainly not by trying them, nor go to friends for brand names. CR has been testing them very well for a few days now, or is it decades?
    I guess that is your speed.

    Ever notice that they never test the highest performance tires? Most assuredly not. Do tell me though which tire they favor in their infinite wisdom.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 05-16-2004 at 05:08 PM.

  21. #46
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_A
    So E-Stat,

    what are the differences you percieve between the Toshiba and the GamuT?
    Increased stage width, better midrange and lower treble focus. High frequencies don't splatter on the GamuT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_A
    Although distortion is very low, this result is far from "high-end" performance.
    If merely frequency response is your sole criteria, that is the case.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_A
    The speakers were DIY active three-way speakers with low distorsion at moderate listening levels, 1 dB frequency response 40 Hz-19 kHz, damping panels in behind speakers effective down ?100 Hz.. Amps were Audio Analogue, Rotel, NAD, parametric EQ of one standing wave (47 Hz).
    I appreciate your including your reference system as it provides me a point of reference for your conclusions.

    rw

  22. #47
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Me TOO!

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Actually, that's the reason I spent $3k on my GamuT CD-1. It has very pretty blue LEDs.

    rw
    OMG!! Me too, the only thing I am upset about is I really wish I payed more, that would make me feel better about the dozens of hrs I spent auditioning equipment.

    Oh to have mytymites ears, it would have saved me a lot of $$$.
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
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    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    OMG!! Me too, the only thing I am upset about is I really wish I payed more, that would make me feel better about the dozens of hrs I spent auditioning equipment.

    Oh to have mytymites ears, it would have saved me a lot of $$$.

    But you have no idea how good your ears are. You have not tested it properly. Thinking that it is great, is just wishfull thinking.
    mtrycrafts

  24. #49
    Forum Regular Colin^'s Avatar
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    Cool Pretty Blue LEDS?

    Rotels have them and a lot of high priced or high end gear.

    My Nads has the old plain green leds. (

    I am going to upgrade to a new $5,000 CD player!!

    It has pretty blue leds!

  25. #50
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    Jitter????

    Almost 2 full pages on the differences between a $200 and a $2000 Cd player and not one mention of Jitter (unless I missed it).....odd.

    I can't even claim to fully understand what Jitter is - only that it has something to do with timing. Many manufacturers seem to go to great lengths to reduce Jitter resulting from both transport (i.e mechanical sources) and DAC's/clocks (electronic sources).

    There is lots on info on the Wadia site (for example) on controlling Jitter (http://www.wadia.com/technology/tech_guide.htm#TM) along with a slew of other issues - from filters to ouput levels that will all, probably, have an effect on the sound.

    Of course none of this is really my area - my CD player is a $70 DVD. Somehow I just cant justify springing the kind of amounts they seem to want for a Wadia, an Accuphase, a Krell and the like....not when there is vinyl anyway!

    And if vinyl is not your bag - how about an SACD or a DVDa player. Some of these are supposed to be very good CD players are well - with the advantage of supporting one of both of the newer formats.

    I imagine for $2000 you could get a fine SACD/DVDa or both....

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