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  1. #1
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    what gauge wire ?

    If i were to wire a Yamaha 6190 HTR with energy 5.1 take speakers on a run of no more than 30 feet would 14 gauge do the job .The yamma puts out 135 watts per channel. I had bought a 6160 with 95 watts per channel and did all the wiring
    Thanks in advance

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    If i were to wire a Yamaha 6190 HTR with energy 5.1 take speakers on a run of no more than 30 feet would 14 gauge do the job .The yamma puts out 135 watts per channel. I had bought a 6160 with 95 watts per channel and did all the wiring
    Thanks in advance
    14g is an industry standard for the most part, so for surrounds and so forth - yes 14g is fine for the lengths you're talking about. If you have full range towers up front use 12g for them and keep the lengths of wire the same for the R and L.

    Hope this helps

  3. #3
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sallysue
    14g is an industry standard for the most part, so for surrounds and so forth - yes 14g is fine for the lengths you're talking about. If you have full range towers up front use 12g for them and keep the lengths of wire the same for the R and L.
    For simplicity, one can get the same effect (actually 11 gauge) by biwiring the mains with the same 14 gauge (if speakers support such a connection).

    rw

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    One thing I forgot to add redriverangler - try not to cut the long runs and splice them, you'll loose power. Also, avoid coiling the speaker wire. Many times, in order to do a neat job, guys will coil and zip tie the extra speaker wire - avoid this it can affect the signal.

  5. #5
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sallysue
    Also, avoid coiling the speaker wire. Many times, in order to do a neat job, guys will coil and zip tie the extra speaker wire - avoid this it can affect the signal.
    Indeed, coiling will increase inductance - which for zip is already about triple that or more found in better cables.

    rw

  6. #6
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    Regarding coiling wire, I don't know I'd be overly concerned about this. I did some back of the envelope calculations and if you do five tight 8 inch diameter loops of speaker wire you'll get an inductance value of about 15 microHenries. In a typical 8 ohm speaker, this starts affecting the bandwidth of the speaker somewhere around 100,000 Hz, which is way beyond the frequency response of all speakers on the market and virtually all source material.

    Fewer turns would push that frequency figure even higher.

    Any audible effect would more likely come from the fact that five 8 inch loops of wire adds ten feet of speaker wire to each connection. That adds extra resistance and degrades the dampening factor slightly, but neither of those qualities have anything to do with the coiling of wire.

  7. #7
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Buy some 10 or 12g wire from www.bluejeancables.com They will cut them in the length you need. Buy the unterminated cable and buy the banana plugs from them and terminate them yourself, its easy to do with their plugs. You will save a ton of money that way. Its 0.61 cents per for for the 12g.
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  8. #8
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlsstl
    In a typical 8 ohm speaker, this starts affecting the bandwidth of the speaker somewhere around 100,000 Hz, which is way beyond the frequency response of all speakers on the market and virtually all source material.
    The challenge with cocktail napkin calculations is they greatly simplify actual effects of the real world speaker-amplifier interface. Typical speakers are not 8 ohm resistors and amplifiers react diffferently to added inductance.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    The challenge with cocktail napkin calculations is they greatly simplify actual effects of the real world speaker-amplifier interface. Typical speakers are not 8 ohm resistors and amplifiers react diffferently to added inductance.

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    Excellent read. Thanks E-Stat.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    The challenge with cocktail napkin calculations is they greatly simplify actual effects of the real world speaker-amplifier interface. Typical speakers are not 8 ohm resistors and amplifiers react diffferently to added inductance.

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    rw
    That is pure geek-ness

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    Typical speakers are not 8 ohm resistors and amplifiers react diffferently to added inductance.
    I see this quite a bit in the audio forums. People love science when it confirms their beliefs but instantly become priggish when it doesn't.

    First, the coil of speaker wire mentioned created a inductance that could only be measured in microhenries. This is a thousand-fold lower than the inductance values commonly used in crossovers. The inductors used in speakers are measured in millihenries.

    Next, consider that a 2% tolerance is a very tight figure for a speaker inductor (tolerance specs can run 10% or 20% in many inductors) and we can quickly see that the loop of speaker wire has an inductance value that is lower than the variability of the inductors already present in the speaker.

    On the other hand, look at the impact the extra 10 feet of wire (coiled or not) has on the dampening factor. About a year ago I had a Bel Canto S300 with a dampening factor of 1000. That extra 10 feet of 14 guage wire would drop that dampening factor to about 120 all by itself.

    Sure, speakers are not 8 ohm resistors, but you can certainly plot the impedance by frequency for any speaker and calculate the impact. The majority of speakers actually have gentle a rise in impedance above 5KHz or 10Khz, so that would push any high frequency roll-off the speaker coil is introducing even higher than the 100KHz figure mentioned earlier.

    Does the inductance of a five loop coil of speaker wire change anything? Probably at some microscopic level of things in the universe. However, in comparison to other effects that are much larger it probably doesn't accomplish much. Rather like waxing my headlight lenses on my car to reduce air friction when what I really need to do is get a tune up.

  12. #12
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlsstl
    I see this quite a bit in the audio forums. People love science when it confirms their beliefs but instantly become priggish when it doesn't.
    Dude, I am totally hip to the sentiment here and your math looks good but you really should give the paper a read or at least try and dig up some dirt on the author before trying to take this on.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlsstl
    I see this quite a bit in the audio forums. People love science when it confirms their beliefs but instantly become priggish when it doesn't.
    Indeed. Nowhere have you acknowledged the content of the article having to do with the interaction of inductance with amplifiers. Who is talking about crossovers?

    Quote Originally Posted by mlsstl
    That extra 10 feet of 14 guage wire would drop that dampening factor to about 120 all by itself.
    First of all, that's damping factor and who cares about astronomical values?

    Quote Originally Posted by mlsstl
    Rather like waxing my headlight lenses on my car to reduce air friction when what I really need to do is get a tune up.
    You continue to completely miss the point by performing your theoretical gyrations of inductance in a vacuum. That only works when the speaker is not driven by an amplifier.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 01-21-2009 at 06:26 PM.

  14. #14
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    ...but you really should give the paper a read or at least try and dig up some dirt on the author before trying to take this on.
    I made no argument against the paper and have no dispute with the author nor have any urge to look for "dirt" on anyone. I'm not "wired" that way.

    The paper doesn't discuss coiling wire. The offending noted cables have a combination of characteristics, not one. Coiling wouldn't affect either the capacitance or resistance.

    While I remain of the opinion that coiling a bit of excess wire is not an issue that wll audibly affect an otherwise fine system, it is still a good idea (as I already noted) not to use excess speaker wire.

    And I'm happy that you approve of my math. ;-)

  15. #15
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    That is pure geek-ness
    Here's the Cliff Notes summary:

    "If loudspeakers were only simple resistance, then large, low-resistance cables would not be a bad idea. However, loudspeaker systems exhibit a frequency dependent complex impedance that can interact with the reactive components of amplifier and cable. The best response was obtained with low-inductance cables and an amplifier with low-inductance output and a high, frequency-independent damping factor.

    Looking at the effect of a single metric independent of its use in a complex system is virtually useless in the real world. That's also why THD is meaningless.

    rw

  16. #16
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    ... who cares about astronomical values?
    Apparently you did when you stated that coiling will increase inductance without reference to the amount of inductance created or the influence on audibility.
    You continue to completely miss the point by performing your theoretical gyrations of inductance in a vacuum.
    Et tu.

    The paper you referred to above makes not one reference to whether any of the measured interactions were audible under either normal or test conditions.

    The ability to measure a difference does not equate to something being audibly better. Not too many years ago amp makers were chasing incredibly low distortion numbers yet amplifiers that did not measure as well sounded better.

    Likewise, nothing you've said above indicates that coiling a speaker wire would be audible. Your position on the situation is just as much a "theoretical gyration" as mine unless there is a portion of this thread that is not available for my viewing.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlsstl
    (re:who cares about astronomical values? )Apparently you did when you stated that coiling will increase inductance without reference to the amount of inductance created or the influence on audibility.
    Actually, astronomical means "exceptionally large" as the value you cited with DF, not small. My point is that your calculations ignore any effect caused the amplifier-speaker system.

    Quote Originally Posted by mlsstl
    Not too many years ago amp makers were chasing incredibly low distortion numbers yet amplifiers that did not measure as well sounded better.
    Exactly! They (like you) were missing the forest for the trees by focusing on the value of a metric independent of anything else. That's why I commented. The loss values you quoted do not translate to the real world of amplifiers driving speakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by mlsstl
    Your position on the situation is just as much a "theoretical gyration" as mine...
    I merely point out there are indeed measurable effects outside the cocktail napkin theory.

    rw

  18. #18
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    My point is that your calculations ignore any effect caused the amplifier-speaker system.
    I did not "ignore" anything. My position has clearly been that I consider the effect too insignificant to merit much concern. Many years ago I worked professionally as a sound engineer and have seen more coiled mike and speaker cables that I care to shake a stick at. If there is an audible effect - which I doubt - it was the least of my worries then and now.
    The loss values you quoted do not translate to the real world of amplifiers driving speakers.
    Et tu again. Just like the chase for artifically low amp distortion numbers, likewise, I've seen nothing from you in this thread (or in the paper) that translates into the "real world" of "can you hear it?" There has been zero mention of audibility much less evidence.

    It is mildly annoying to be chastised for being theoretical and not in the real world when the critic is no differently positioned. Perhaps you don't see that.

    Out of curiosity, I put on a longer set of speaker cables this evening and coiled them. If there was a difference, I couldn't hear it. (Though that opens up a whole new set of questions about the "resolution" of my system and my whether my listening skills have been properly honed if you feel it necessary to go that direction.) It is certainly a test that is within the scope of most people if they simply want to see what works for them.

    Anyway, our original poster certain has lots of fodder to chew. Thanks for an engaging discussion.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlsstl
    I did not "ignore" anything...(Though that opens up a whole new set of questions about the "resolution" of my system...
    Actually such a comment continues to ignore the role of the significant factor: the amplifier used. Independent of their ability to resolve, amplifiers react differently to the effects of small amounts of inductance. Yours is necessarily different from that of others. The reliance of a conclusion based on but one of many puzzle pieces doesn't provide much use to me. YMMV.

    Quote Originally Posted by mlsstl
    Thanks for an engaging discussion.
    Hopefully, a thought provoking one.

    rw

  20. #20
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    beliefs but instantly become priggish when it doesn't
    My girl gets after me for using too many 5 cent words. I can't remember the last time I had to look up the meaning of a word. Priggish - had to look it up - I learned something, thanks

  21. #21
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    Gosh, I love these civilised 'arguments'. Thanks for the fine read gentlemen

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by audio amateur
    Gosh, I love these civilised 'arguments'. Thanks for the fine read gentlemen
    Way too civilized... we need to get Pix, Rich and Sir T in here to shake things up a bit... Otherwise E-Stat and mIstI will have us all taking a break to have afternoon tea and crackers in the middle of the argument...

    I must admit that this has been an interesting discussion... The more I read and experience in this hobby, the less impressed I become with just measurements...

  23. #23
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Here's the Cliff Notes summary:

    "If loudspeakers were only simple resistance, then large, low-resistance cables would not be a bad idea. However, loudspeaker systems exhibit a frequency dependent complex impedance that can interact with the reactive components of amplifier and cable. The best response was obtained with low-inductance cables and an amplifier with low-inductance output and a high, frequency-independent damping factor.
    That is the fluffy bit in the introduction and conclusion. The actual work tells a different story. The meaty bit for me was "The effects of 3.1 m cables are subtle" though I probably would choose a different word than "subtle". Both measurements and mathematical simulation of the complete "interacting" system (amplifier, cable, speaker) showed the differences between $3000 and $10 cables to be a less than 1 dB roll off at 20 KHz. From my reading of the experimental data, there was little correlation between price and measured performance.

  24. #24
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Actually such a comment continues to ignore the role of the significant factor: the amplifier used. Independent of their ability to resolve, amplifiers react differently to the effects of small amounts of inductance. Yours is necessarily different from that of others. The reliance of a conclusion based on but one of many puzzle pieces doesn't provide much use to me. YMMV.
    Combinations of two amplifiers, two speakers and 12 cables were tested. The overall performance of the system was not significantly different than the computed sum of the performance of the individual pieces. There is no magic "synergy" effect. This is not highlighted in the author's conclusion but is evident in figures 12 and 17 where measurements and predictions agree across the entire audio spectrum exactly for the robust amplifier and to within 0.05 dB for the fussy one.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevio
    Both measurements and mathematical simulation of the complete "interacting" system (amplifier, cable, speaker) showed the differences between $3000 and $10 cables to be a less than 1 dB roll off at 20 KHz. From my reading of the experimental data, there was little correlation between price and measured performance.
    In the FR domain only.

    rw

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