Speaker cables - what do you use...?

[LVMF]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.

[TerryB]

Nordost SPM. My criteria was that it had to be flat, to go under the carpet. So my choices were Nordost or Townshend Isolda. I never heard Isolda as the dealer couldn't find me a pair long enough, so it was Nordost or Nordost!

Fortunately, that's not such a bad dilemma, as i'd been using Flatline Gold on my first system, and then Blue Heaven on my first upgrade. But once i'd bought my Chord amps, and the lounge needed re-carpeting, i took the opportunity to upgrade the speaker cable too.

Red Dawn was nice, but not significantly different to Blue Heaven, in my opinion. Slightly leaner in the bass if anything. With SPM, it was night and day difference, especially in the soundstage department. I didn't audition Valhalla, as i knew i couldn't afford it! But no regrets at all. It's expensive, but does exactly what it says on the engraved wooden presentation box!


As for bi-wiring - some people will tell you it's vital, others like myself will tell you that the difference is subtle. Like all thse things - try it and see what you think. What i personally do is use separate connectors at the speaker end, which are then joined at the amp end. Then you get the benefit of double the cable capacity. That's what Nordost recommend, in any case.


Terry

[theaudiohobby]

Go to your local electronics supplies store and buy good quality OFC speaker wire between 12 - 16 ga( 10 ga is a bit large), audible differences connecting the tweeters and bass drivers to the amplifier individually or jointly with jumper wire is totally dependent on speaker design and there are no hard and fast rules, so experiment if you can afford it. Forget about ultra expensive wire, the money is better spent elsewhere.

[TerryB]

Don't agree theaudiohobby - it depends what standard the source components are. I could demonstate to you without a *shadow* of a doubt the difference on my system between a cheap speaker cable and a quality one. Beyond a certain point it becomes a matter of taste - granted, but don't hold a good system back by assuming speaker cable just has to "be" there, regardless of quality...

[BRANDONH]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.

I use 10 guage Sound King.
Was using Radio Shack 12 Guage.
I could not tell much If any difference but needed the 10 guage for High Power Amp.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....=195&cat_id=56

[Woochifer]

Speaker cables are the least variable part of any audio system. Compared to other parts of an audio system, the speakers and the room acoustics are the areas that vary the most and need to be accounted for first. Then you worry about the amplification and front end sources. So long as you're using something better than high gauge generic speaker wires or those molded plastic OEM interconnects, you're fine.

Anybody who tells you that they can detect obvious differences between cables is hearing them under sighted conditions where the placebo effect can have a huge influence. How else do you explain informal tests (done by Dunlavy and McIntosh during product demos) that showed the large majority of listeners claiming that they could hear clear differences between cables, when in fact the cables had NOT been switched out. Under blind conditions, I could only identify very slight differences between cables -- hardly a magnitude of change that justifies that ridiculously high prices charged for some of these cables.

The money spent on and time obsessing over speaker cables would be far better invested in getting to know the acoustical conditions of your room, and making any necessary corrections. Room treatments make very noticeable differences that can be verified with simple measurements. The same cannot be said for cables.

[TerryB]

Anybody who tells you that they can detect obvious differences between cables is hearing them under sighted conditions where the placebo effect can have a huge influence.

Sorry, but utter, utter, UTTER rubbish. Complete nonsense. But then, if you can get away with cheaper cables and be happy with them, then you've saved yourself a whole bunch of money i guess. The things i hear said in the audio world never cease to amuse me - the above assertion the latest in a long line! I will *guarantee* that i could demonstrate the difference to you, blindfold on or not. I *wanted* to prefer the cheaper cables, believe me!!

Terry

[theaudiohobby]

Sorry, but utter, utter, UTTER rubbish. Complete nonsense. But then, if you can get away with cheaper cables and be happy with them, then you've saved yourself a whole bunch of money i guess. The things i hear said in the audio world never cease to amuse me - the above assertion the latest in a long line! I will *guarantee* that i could demonstrate the difference to you, blindfold on or not. I *wanted* to prefer the cheaper cables, believe me!!

Terry

I think it is time to move to Audio Lab or Cables and join some of the ongoing debates over there . Was your cable prerference test blind or sighted? Well thought out room acoustics treatments are absolutely more effective than exercizing one's self over different cables and sometimes it is also cheaper. For me, speaker cables and interconnects are permanently off my upgrade list, check out my system, the basic components are no slouches.

[46minaudio]

Sorry, but utter, utter, UTTER rubbish. Complete nonsense. But then, if you can get away with cheaper cables and be happy with them, then you've saved yourself a whole bunch of money i guess. The things i hear said in the audio world never cease to amuse me - the above assertion the latest in a long line! I will *guarantee* that i could demonstrate the difference to you, blindfold on or not. I *wanted* to prefer the cheaper cables, believe me!!

Terry

Then you would be the first..(unless the cable has a device built into it that alters the sound).

The things i hear said in the audio world never cease to amuse me -.

I agree, your above post does just that.

[Woochifer]

Sorry, but utter, utter, UTTER rubbish. Complete nonsense. But then, if you can get away with cheaper cables and be happy with them, then you've saved yourself a whole bunch of money i guess. The things i hear said in the audio world never cease to amuse me - the above assertion the latest in a long line! I will *guarantee* that i could demonstrate the difference to you, blindfold on or not. I *wanted* to prefer the cheaper cables, believe me!!

Sounds to me like you've yet to actually do a blind listening. Save your guarantee for when you can verify these beyond a "shadow of a doubt" differences under blind conditions. I'll believe you when you can consistently pick out the cables without knowing beforehand which sets were attached.

I've done enough blind trials to know how much the magnitude of difference shrinks when you don't have sight biases leading the way. Under blind conditions, the differences that I've observed are so laughably small that it's hardly worth the trouble. With the amount of money that people can waste on exotic cabling, they can make far more significant real world improvements by hiring an acoustician (or buying a microphone and RTA software) and installing room treatments. Dealing with room acoustics makes improvements that are clearly audible AND verifiable via simple measurements. Talk to me when you can make that claim about cables.

And I notice that you clipped the rest of that paragraph. Convenient of you to dodge the points I brought up with McIntosh and Dunlavy's informal tests. They actually set up demo rooms with a set of generic speaker wires and pretended to switch out the cables to larger more formidable looking cables. Nearly 3 out of 4 listeners claimed to hear an improvement with the "improved cables", when in fact, the listenings were identical. How do you explain that?

The amusing thing about audio is when people want to believe in cable claims that have little to no scientific basis, and ignore room acoustical effects that are scientifically verifiable and clearly audible.

[Geoffcin]

There were some specific questions asked in the opening post of this thread. Unless your answer is specifically for THOSE questions please refrain from posting. This is not the forum, or the thread to get into a debate on DBT, or start calling anyone tone deaf.

[markw]

I would have expected the tweeters to have blown out by now by not having bass blocked from them. They must be pretty rugged critters.

[topspeed]

I have Marsh Sound Labs, but I bought that when it was more important for me to listen to other's people's opinions instead of my own ears. If I were to do it all over again, I'd just get some 12 gauge outdoor extension cord from Home Depot and be done with it. You might check out issue 147 of TAS about 6 or 8 months ago. They did a wire shoot-out and Paul Seydor plainly stated that if he were asked to tell the difference between the wires in a blind situation, without previously determining any characteristics inherent in each design, he probably would not be able to. He also noted that the level of concentration required to tell the difference was completely counterproductive to the actual enjoyment of music, which is what this hobby is really about, right?

Personally, I think room treatments will yield a far greater benefit at far less cost than any fancy wire could possibly hope to. Just my opinion, ymmv.

[46minaudio]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.

http://sandobargainhunters.com/catal...8368d19ef524de

[LVMF]

My speaker manufacturer suggests bi-wiring is best; the speaker wire I'm using has banana clips on the end...ANY SUGGESTIONS to modify for bi-wiring. My speakers, Reference 3A De Capo's DO NOT have a crossover, so I guess that's why they suggest bi-wiring.

[drseid]

I use DH Labs T-14 speaker cables...

That said, I bought them mainly because it was inexpensive and they had banana plugs placed on the ends for easy hookup to my speakers and amps. I tend to fall in the "wire is wire" camp, for the most part. I doubt I would really be able to tell what wire was hooked up to my system in a double-blind listening test... and I believe I have a relatively revealing system.

---Dave

[dean_martin]

I use DH Labs T-14 speaker cables...

me, too.

[topspeed]

My speaker manufacturer suggests bi-wiring is best; the speaker wire I'm using has banana clips on the end...ANY SUGGESTIONS to modify for bi-wiring. My speakers, Reference 3A De Capo's DO NOT have a crossover, so I guess that's why they suggest bi-wiring.

You can't modify your existing wire. You'll need to either run another length of wire or get dedicated bi-wire. If you don't want to run two lengths of HD cable, these cables aren't very expensive and should do the trick.

Hope this helps.

[theaudiohobby]

My speaker manufacturer suggests bi-wiring is best; the speaker wire I'm using has banana clips on the end...ANY SUGGESTIONS to modify for bi-wiring. My speakers, Reference 3A De Capo's DO NOT have a crossover, so I guess that's why they suggest bi-wiring.

The De capo does have a crossover to protect the tweeter, minimal crossover is the word they use, but it is still a crossover circuit.

[TerryB]

LOL, i didn't realise i'd walked into the Thou Must Not Challenge The Doctrine That RadioShack's Finest Will Do The Job Just As Well As Anything forum!!

Jesus guys, open your minds (and ears?!!). I can only repeat what i've said previously. If somebody wants to come over here to the UK, i will guarantee, monetarily if necessary, that i can demonstrate the difference between my SPM and Red Dawn, for instance. It isn't even *nearly* similar, for Christ's sake!!! Bring all the blindfolds you want!!

I clipped the end of the quote because i have no knowledge of the tests that were carried out, but i am absolutely NOT going to base my entire belief system around somebody else's findings!! You're not doing THAT, are you?!

Sure, room acoustics are important, there's no denying. But if you honestly believe that speaker cable can't make a difference, i just have to drop my jaw in disbelief. Seriously.

Terry

[drseid]

LOL, i didn't realise i'd walked into the Thou Must Not Challenge The Doctrine That RadioShack's Finest Will Do The Job Just As Well As Anything forum!!

Jesus guys, open your minds (and ears?!!). I can only repeat what i've said previously. If somebody wants to come over here to the UK, i will guarantee, monetarily if necessary, that i can demonstrate the difference between my SPM and Red Dawn, for instance. It isn't even *nearly* similar, for Christ's sake!!! Bring all the blindfolds you want!!

I clipped the end of the quote because i have no knowledge of the tests that were carried out, but i am absolutely NOT going to base my entire belief system around somebody else's findings!! You're not doing THAT, are you?!

Sure, room acoustics are important, there's no denying. But if you honestly believe that speaker cable can't make a difference, i just have to drop my jaw in disbelief. Seriously.

Terry

Start dropping your jaw Terry... ;-)

---Dave

[Woochifer]

LOL, i didn't realise i'd walked into the Thou Must Not Challenge The Doctrine That RadioShack's Finest Will Do The Job Just As Well As Anything forum!!

No, you just stumbled upon a group of posters who prefer value for what they invest in their systems.

Jesus guys, open your minds (and ears?!!). I can only repeat what i've said previously. If somebody wants to come over here to the UK, i will guarantee, monetarily if necessary, that i can demonstrate the difference between my SPM and Red Dawn, for instance. It isn't even *nearly* similar, for Christ's sake!!! Bring all the blindfolds you want!!

You can repeat all you want. I've done enough cable listenings to come to my own conclusions about the value of speaker cable upgrades relative to other system upgrades -- pretty much near the bottom of the priority list.

No need for blindfolds, just an honest listening where you don't know what you're listening to in advance. You don't even need elaborate testing equipment, just someone in the back of the system swapping out the cable pairs at random. I've done cable comparisons under both sighted and blind conditions, so I'm aware of how the magnitude of "difference" changes when you don't see the brand or look of the cable before listening. That's what McIntosh and Dunlavy confirmed in their demos.

I clipped the end of the quote because i have no knowledge of the tests that were carried out, but i am absolutely NOT going to base my entire belief system around somebody else's findings!! You're not doing THAT, are you?!

If you're going to base your belief system around sighted listenings, then you need to be aware that people who take you up on your *guarantee* might demand a more rigorous and reliable comparison than a simple show-and-tell session. And they might ask you to make your case first without the sight biases to assist you.

My views on cables have been reinforced through my own listenings and measurements over the past 20+ years. I've done my own foolery with friends before where I pretended to switch out a component or cable, and have them gush over how much "improvement" they heard when in fact I had not changed a thing. This type of placebo effect is not just someone else's findings, it's what I've observed as well.

In recommending system upgrades, I prefer to focus on areas that provide the most real world improvement for the amount spent. Expensive speaker cables IMO represent the exact inverse of that price/value equation.

Sure, room acoustics are important, there's no denying. But if you honestly believe that speaker cable can't make a difference, i just have to drop my jaw in disbelief. Seriously.

Never said that they don't make a difference, only that the differences are too small to be worth a damn.

[NoMSG]

LOL, i didn't realise i'd walked into the Thou Must Not Challenge The Doctrine That RadioShack's Finest Will Do The Job Just As Well As Anything forum!!

Jesus guys, open your minds (and ears?!!). I can only repeat what i've said previously. If somebody wants to come over here to the UK, i will guarantee, monetarily if necessary, that i can demonstrate the difference between my SPM and Red Dawn, for instance. It isn't even *nearly* similar, for Christ's sake!!! Bring all the blindfolds you want!!

I clipped the end of the quote because i have no knowledge of the tests that were carried out, but i am absolutely NOT going to base my entire belief system around somebody else's findings!! You're not doing THAT, are you?!

Sure, room acoustics are important, there's no denying. But if you honestly believe that speaker cable can't make a difference, i just have to drop my jaw in disbelief. Seriously.

Terry

People who go for the 12 gauge oxygen-free zip cords report not being to hear an noticeable difference AND cite to objective listening tests in support of this.

The supporters of pricey cables always rely on anectdotal evidence: "I can tell the difference...really!" Even in medicine, the placebo effect is well documented. Why do these supporters believe they alone are exempt from this principle?

[musicoverall]

LOL, i didn't realise i'd walked into the Thou Must Not Challenge The Doctrine That RadioShack's Finest Will Do The Job Just As Well As Anything forum!!

Jesus guys, open your minds (and ears?!!). I can only repeat what i've said previously. If somebody wants to come over here to the UK, i will guarantee, monetarily if necessary, that i can demonstrate the difference between my SPM and Red Dawn, for instance. It isn't even *nearly* similar, for Christ's sake!!! Bring all the blindfolds you want!!

I clipped the end of the quote because i have no knowledge of the tests that were carried out, but i am absolutely NOT going to base my entire belief system around somebody else's findings!! You're not doing THAT, are you?!

Sure, room acoustics are important, there's no denying. But if you honestly believe that speaker cable can't make a difference, i just have to drop my jaw in disbelief. Seriously.

Terry

When I was a newcomer to this site, I too was surprised that there was even a debate! After researching a little further, it seems this debate is about 25 years old. That fact hints at the idea that there really is no absolute answer. I respect the opinions of those that claim there are no differences or that those differences aren't worth it - I simply disagree.

While I was auditioning Nordost, there was one higher level model that I did not audition and I think it was the SPM. However, the Red Dawn did not exhibit the same sonic characteristics that the Valhalla did in my system. I tried to capture that sound as close as possible without spending that kind of cash and I was surprised that the rest of the line I auditioned was so different. Most brands have a signature sound throughout their line but Valhalla truly appears to be a breakthrough product.

How do you like the SPM? I couldn't find any used so wasn't able to audition it. It's certainly nicer to look at than the Cardas Neutral Reference I bought!

[iSteal]

I totally agree with Woochifer. You just need a cable with good insulation and good quality copper/silver and you're set to go. You don't have to pay thousands of $ to get quality sound or better - just different. I would say that room acoustics, speaker placement and source should be your 1st priority. But I'll be honest with you. I would never use a "standard" speaker wire from my local dealer - no matter how good it is for the price. It's a psychological effect.

I use a pair of Kimber 8 TC