Speaker cables - what do you use...?

[jrhymeammo]

Here is a thought. Stop listening to music while you are cooking, browsing on the net, and reading cuz you are not goning be able to hear great difference!!!! If music is just background noise to you that is fine with everybody, just dont act like all the cables sound same, say simialr if you must. It is different than stating certain gear sounds digital while we all hear in analogue. That's just one's nuance. But stating all cables sound the same is something I cannot do. Too all the skpetics out there, coughup $1.50/ft and get yourself KWIK 12 by Kimber Kable and $0.50/ft copper wire at a local hardware store and hear the difference. I believe KWIK is the best cable for money for me.

[FLZapped]

Here is a thought. Stop listening to music while you are cooking, browsing on the net, and reading cuz you are not goning be able to hear great difference!!!! If music is just background noise to you that is fine with everybody, just dont act like all the cables sound same, say simialr if you must. It is different than stating certain gear sounds digital while we all hear in analogue. That's just one's nuance. But stating all cables sound the same is something I cannot do. Too all the skpetics out there, coughup $1.50/ft and get yourself KWIK 12 by Kimber Kable and $0.50/ft copper wire at a local hardware store and hear the difference.

Here is a thought, take some time to learn about human perception and what influences it.

I believe KWIK is the best cable for money for me.

That's good for you.

-Bruce

[jrhymeammo]

Here is a thought, take some time to learn about human perception and what influences it.

-Bruce

What are you talking about. Go remove your towel from your equipment, take a shower, wakeup, then explain this to me with few more words.

[musicoverall]

What are you talking about. Go remove your towel from your equipment, take a shower, wakeup, then explain this to me with few more words.

Some people believe that all cables sound identical unless the cable has been purposefully made to sound different i.e not neutral. They believe zip cord is perfectly neutral and passes all the information and that the differences we hear are imagined. As far as they know, no one has successfully picked out two cables of normal guage in a DBT as being different. Therefore, they conclude that we are deluding ourselves.

It's an argument that goes back to the late 1970's, as far as I've been able to discover. The very fact that we're still arguing about it 25 years later with a very small percentage of people changing their stance, tells me that it may never be resolved. You see, the "burden of proof" is on the claimant... meaning that we who have heard sonic differences in cables must prove to them that we have heard them using the one and only methodology they trust = DBT. They don't have to prove a thing. Then again, neither do you or I, except to ourselves.

Enjoy each and every piece of your audio system and don't worry so much about other people's belief system. Believe me, nothing you do will change their minds.

[jrhymeammo]

Some people believe that all cables sound identical unless the cable has been purposefully made to sound different i.e not neutral. They believe zip cord is perfectly neutral and passes all the information and that the differences we hear are imagined. As far as they know, no one has successfully picked out two cables of normal guage in a DBT as being different. Therefore, they conclude that we are deluding ourselves.

It's an argument that goes back to the late 1970's, as far as I've been able to discover. The very fact that we're still arguing about it 25 years later with a very small percentage of people changing their stance, tells me that it may never be resolved. You see, the "burden of proof" is on the claimant... meaning that we who have heard sonic differences in cables must prove to them that we have heard them using the one and only methodology they trust = DBT. They don't have to prove a thing. Then again, neither do you or I, except to ourselves.

Enjoy each and every piece of your audio system and don't worry so much about other people's belief system. Believe me, nothing you do will change their minds.

Thanks musicoverall. I usually try my best to stay away from cable discussion, but I couldnt help myself this time. Then again this is why AR can be more entertaining thatn others, but I prefer not to waste my time. Peace

[superpanavision70mm]

Cable debate is not unlike any other debate in life when it comes to each persons experience and perspective on issues of quality. Some people believe that premium gasoline makes your car run better than the cheap stuff (none of it's cheap these days though), while others believe that it all comes from the same place and it's a big scandal. Some people believe that bottled water tastes better than from the tap, while others think that it's yet another scandal and that bottled water is no better for you or no different in taste. Some people buy Nike shoes for a over $100 and say that they feel better on their feet than the $50 alternative brands. Other times people just pay huge sums of money for something that is just ...well, more pleasing to them...like Oakley sunglasses that cost a few hundred dollars. Maybe that block out more UV, maybe they last longer, maybe this and maybe that...whatever the case...people usually buy them because of the name and the style.

Cables are no different in most cases. However, for those that want to spend their hard--earned cash...go for it! I know I have spent a great deal of money on my cables, but not nearly as much as some. However, I can also tell a difference with what I use versus buying cheaper stuff. If you think that we are stupid for spending so much money on cables....too bad! Chances are you are not able to hear the difference for a variety of reasons....either your equipment is incapable of discerning the difference...your ears are unable to detect the difference, or your equipment is not calibrated (or room) in order to tell a difference.

In the meantime...the debate will continue as always and I suppose it's entertainment value for some.

[musicoverall]

Chances are you are not able to hear the difference for a variety of reasons....either your equipment is incapable of discerning the difference...your ears are unable to detect the difference, or your equipment is not calibrated (or room) in order to tell a difference.

In the meantime...the debate will continue as always and I suppose it's entertainment value for some.

I don't disagree with the reasons you cited but IMHO the biggest reason is that some people are biased against hearing these differences. Science books tell them they shouldn't be able to and their ear/brain interface simply shuts down as a result. If a listener believes it is possible that differences might exist, they may be heard if they are present. If a listener closes his mind, there's no way they'll hear anything.

Then again, not all cables sound different to me, either. In fact, based on my own auditions, I detected differences in only about a third of the cables I tested. Some of them sounded no more highly defined than simple zip cord. Newbies should be aware that certain cables interact differently in different systems.

[superpanavision70mm]

Yes, you are right! Not all cables do make the difference, but those that argue that NO cable can make a difference is obviously more closed minded than one could fathom.

[FLZapped]

What are you talking about. Go remove your towel from your equipment, take a shower, wakeup, then explain this to me with few more words.

One: No towel needed; Two: I am awake; Three: get an education.

-Bruce

[FLZapped]

Science books tell them they shouldn't be able to and their ear/brain interface simply shuts down as a result.

Please show me any viable reference that says this happens, or any "science book" that makes that claim.

-Bruce

[musicoverall]

Please show me any viable reference that says this happens, or any "science book" that makes that claim.

-Bruce

Any reference that states the claim that no sonic differences exist between, say, two different runs of 16 awg wire? You can start with the Roger Russell link that people around here are so fond of. From there, take your pick.

[FLZapped]

Any reference that states the claim that no sonic differences exist between, say, two different runs of 16 awg wire? You can start with the Roger Russell link that people around here are so fond of. From there, take your pick.

Should have been more clear, sorry:

1) Viable reference that says the ear/bran interface shuts down

2) A "Science Book" that makes the claim differences can't be heard.

[noddin0ff]

Cable debate is not unlike any other debate in life when it comes to each persons experience and perspective on issues of quality. Some people believe that premium gasoline makes your car run better than the cheap stuff (none of it's cheap these days though), while others believe that it all comes from the same place and it's a big scandal. Some people believe that bottled water tastes better than from the tap, while others think that it's yet another scandal and that bottled water is no better for you or no different in taste. Some people buy Nike shoes for a over $100 and say that they feel better on their feet than the $50 alternative brands. Other times people just pay huge sums of money for something that is just ...well, more pleasing to them...like Oakley sunglasses that cost a few hundred dollars. Maybe that block out more UV, maybe they last longer, maybe this and maybe that...whatever the case...people usually buy them because of the name and the style.

Cables are no different in most cases. However, for those that want to spend their hard--earned cash...go for it! I know I have spent a great deal of money on my cables, but not nearly as much as some. However, I can also tell a difference with what I use versus buying cheaper stuff. If you think that we are stupid for spending so much money on cables....too bad! Chances are you are not able to hear the difference for a variety of reasons....either your equipment is incapable of discerning the difference...your ears are unable to detect the difference, or your equipment is not calibrated (or room) in order to tell a difference.

In the meantime...the debate will continue as always and I suppose it's entertainment value for some.

Well, I think you’re argument is going a bit far. In most the ‘debatable’ examples you listed there are very measurable differences that clearly contribute to performance. The differences are large enough to be easily perceptible. Expensive gas/Cheap gas, tap/bottle water, Nike/other shoes…Preference is arbitrary; the difference is clear, people differ on what they prefer.

Cables on the other hand have little to no measurable differences in performance. The differences, if any, fall way below what would be considered readily perceptible. The differences, if any, are so slight that subjective bias becomes the dominant factor for ‘preferring’ one over the other.

[Resident Loser]

What are you talking about. Go remove your towel from your equipment, take a shower, wakeup, then explain this to me with few more words.

...from someone who decided to participate in a thread that went dormant in March '05 and should have been allowed to RIP February '06?

jimHJJ[...wire is wire...or more precisely: Since there is, at this time, no objective, conclusive and repeatable evidence provided by currently applied and accepted test methodology and within commensurate parameters germaine to the subject under test to the contrary, further augmented by analysis of subjective evaluation produced under strict controls and protocols, there simply is no proof, other than that provided as anecdotal evidence (which is subject to a vast array of potential biases) that there is any significant audible difference in wire of a similar type, length and gauge.;-p...]

[musicoverall]

Should have been more clear, sorry:

1) Viable reference that says the ear/bran interface shuts down

2) A "Science Book" that makes the claim differences can't be heard.

Oh, that! Those comments were quite honestly based on various posts I've read from the so-called "objectivists" over the year or so I've been on this board. Actually, the first one was speculative based on my idea of why certain people can't/don't pick up differences in components/wire. Not too many objectivists have much experience with comparing components or, if they do, they refuse to share what, citing that it's irrelevant. It's *extremely* relevant - but that's another story!

The second I can easily support with the Roger Russell example, among many other references that are available as links to posts within the archives here at A/R. I could state it as "It's what I've learned from you"... "you" being the collective for folks on A/R with your POV.

Hey Bruce, are you by any chance Bruce Coppola with the website that I unsuccessfully attempted to peruse during a discussion of amp sound? For some reason, I could never open the link and I'm told the article on amps is a good one with (gasp) actual system details! I understand if you'd rather not say but if you don't mind saying so and if you indeed are Mr Coppola, is there any chance of that link being downloaded into some other format so I can read it? I apologize in advance for my lack of computer terrain navigational skills!

[musicoverall]

...from someone who decided to participate in a thread that went dormant in March '05 and should have been allowed to RIP February '06?

jimHJJ[...wire is wire...or more precisely: Since there is, at this time, no objective, conclusive and repeatable evidence provided by currently applied and accepted test methodology and within commensurate parameters germaine to the subject under test to the contrary, further augmented by analysis of subjective evaluation produced under strict controls and protocols, there simply is no proof, other than that provided as anecdotal evidence (which is subject to a vast array of potential biases) that there is any significant audible difference in wire of a similar type, length and gauge.;-p...]

Sometimes I have some spare time when these things come up and instead of fanning the fire, I should just learn to keep my mouth shut! Er... my fingers limp?

On another note, today is a good day at work! I'm caught up, the boss is gone and Iggy and the Stooges "Funhouse" is playing on my computer.

[Audie Oghaisle]

Takes a look,

Sniffs around and then exclaims:

Ye Gods, on the grave of Robbie Burns,

Some things will NEVER change!

Audie

[FLZapped]

Oh, that! Those comments were quite honestly based on various posts I've read from the so-called "objectivists" over the year or so I've been on this board. Actually, the first one was speculative based on my idea of why certain people can't/don't pick up differences in components/wire. Not too many objectivists have much experience with comparing components or, if they do, they refuse to share what, citing that it's irrelevant. It's *extremely* relevant - but that's another story!

OK, but I can't say I ever remember anyone actually saying that, so if you have a link.....

The second I can easily support with the Roger Russell example, among many other references that are available as links to posts within the archives here at A/R. I could state it as "It's what I've learned from you"... "you" being the collective for folks on A/R with your POV.

Hardly qualifies as a science book.....been a while since I've even been to that website....actually, I can't remember the last time, but it can be measured in years.

Hey Bruce, are you by any chance Bruce Coppola with the website that I unsuccessfully attempted to peruse during a discussion of amp sound? For some reason, I could never open the link and I'm told the article on amps is a good one with (gasp) actual system details! I understand if you'd rather not say but if you don't mind saying so and if you indeed are Mr Coppola, is there any chance of that link being downloaded into some other format so I can read it? I apologize in advance for my lack of computer terrain navigational skills!

Nope, not he.

-Bruce

[musicoverall]

OK, but I can't say I ever remember anyone actually saying that, so if you have a link.....



Hardly qualifies as a science book.....been a while since I've even been to that website....actually, I can't remember the last time, but it can be measured in years.

-Bruce

Do a search on Roger Russell on this forum and also on the Audio Lab. It's been quoted several times as the end-all, be-all of cable discussions. Ok, not a "science book" - poetic license on my part. How about "science materials, papers, studies, etc? All the stuff that says differences cannot be heard, usually based simply on LCR parameters.

[FLZapped]

Do a search on Roger Russell on this forum and also on the Audio Lab. It's been quoted several times as the end-all, be-all of cable discussions. Ok, not a "science book" - poetic license on my part. How about "science materials, papers, studies, etc? All the stuff that says differences cannot be heard, usually based simply on LCR parameters.

I'll look it up if the time permits, however, what would you like to use, if not LCR?

[superpanavision70mm]

So I decided to do some serious listening recently regarding some of my own cables. Here is what I did....

I took three songs that I know very well (CURTAINS from Elton John SACD CAPTAIN FANTASTIC, HIGHER GROUND from the Mobile Fidelity Gold CD INNERVISIONS by Stevie Wonder, and ENJOY THE SILENCE from Depeche Mode's VIOLATOR SACD.

I listened to each song (about a 1min. passage) through my system with my PS Audio Prelude xstream speaker cables. I then listened to the same with Xindak Foil Alloy Cables....a total transformation! The PS Audio's have a much thicker fuller sound, while the Xindak's were a bit more on the thinner side. I then decided to hook up a pair of AudioQuest GR-8s, which again changed the experience. They were a bit in-between the other too, but didn't have the fullness that I had been enjoying from the PS Audios. I then took some really cheap Monster low gauge cable that I had laying around and hooked that up. Not only did the sound change, but it was a radical shift in almost all categories. Now the sound seemed flatter and less punchy. I was also shocked by the limitations that it had as well.

I have experimented like this before and I have come to a satisfactory place with all my cables....I am currently using the following:

PS Audio xstreams for my towers.
Cobalt Cable for my center channel and surrounds.
Miova Interconnects, Tributaries Interconnects, BetterCables BlueTruth Interconnects.

I also decided to give the ole' power cable a bit of a test too. Here was the result.

This time I decided to focus in on changing the power cord to my amp and player. I went back and forth between the factor power cord and the Acoustic Zen 'Tsunami' cord that I currently use. I played the same source material and did some testing back and forth. Essentially at first the differences seem small, in fact I had to go back and forth a few times and at different volumes to hear some differences, but overall I noticed a huge difference when playing for extended periods of time. The factory cables didn't seem to let the player run nearly as smooth and the amp almost seemed exhausted. When using the Tsunami's everything seemed to be at top speed with excellent reproduction of the material and a overall fuller more complete sound. I also had a few other people take a listen and they agreed that the difference was small, but noticeable especially when you listened to it the second time around. I suppose it's like wine...some people think it all tastes the same, while others can immediately tell a difference or over time develop the senses to know various things about the wine.

[FLZapped]

Oh, that! Those comments were quite honestly based on various posts I've read from the so-called "objectivists" over the year or so I've been on this board. Actually, the first one was speculative based on my idea of why certain people can't/don't pick up differences in components/wire. Not too many objectivists have much experience with comparing components or, if they do, they refuse to share what, citing that it's irrelevant. It's *extremely* relevant - but that's another story!

Well, I don't know of any viable reference that suggests the statement made, what you appear to have described, to me, is literal deafness. As for what people may say, dunno, maybe it just wasn't worded as clearly as needed. The interpretive part of our brain is always active, whether is has a tangible effect on things as we percceive it, well, I'm afraid I may not be able to articulate that well, my own understanding is limited. We don't have a little light that comes on telling us when our perception of reality doesn't quite align with what is really there. For example, when we hear a plane fly overhead, do we look up because we expect it to be above us, or because our hearing can really place it there? Something that looks into this somewhat:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/95/3/869

The second I can easily support with the Roger Russell example, among many other references that are available as links to posts within the archives here at A/R. I could state it as "It's what I've learned from you"... "you" being the collective for folks on A/R with your POV.

The RR site isn't the best around, there are others I would visit over his site.
On place would be "True Audio" - an example:

http://www.trueaudio.com/post_008.htm

Another would be "Scots Guide" - a couple examples:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/...io/Analog.html

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/...eshift/cp.html

-Bruce

[musicoverall]

Well, I don't know of any viable reference that suggests the statement made, what you appear to have described, to me, is literal deafness. As for what people may say, dunno, maybe it just wasn't worded as clearly as needed. The interpretive part of our brain is always active, whether is has a tangible effect on things as we percceive it, well, I'm afraid I may not be able to articulate that well, my own understanding is limited. We don't have a little light that comes on telling us when our perception of reality doesn't quite align with what is really there. For example, when we hear a plane fly overhead, do we look up because we expect it to be above us, or because our hearing can really place it there? Something that looks into this somewhat:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/95/3/869



The RR site isn't the best around, there are others I would visit over his site.
On place would be "True Audio" - an example:

http://www.trueaudio.com/post_008.htm

Another would be "Scots Guide" - a couple examples:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/...io/Analog.html

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/...eshift/cp.html

-Bruce

I'll check into those links.

I also owe you an apology - yourself and the other "naysayers" (I HATE that name) for the post to which you originally responded. The comments you plucked out were defamatory and not at all accurate. I apologize. But I've also noticed that it has spawned some discussion on the rules around here so if a few things change, at least some good will come of it.

Happy listening!

[FLZapped]

I'll check into those links.

I also owe you an apology - yourself and the other "naysayers" (I HATE that name) for the post to which you originally responded. The comments you plucked out were defamatory and not at all accurate. I apologize. But I've also noticed that it has spawned some discussion on the rules around here so if a few things change, at least some good will come of it.

Happy listening!

No problem. Anyway, FINALLY getting back to topic after a long excursus. I'm currently using wire off a 500 foot spool given to me. It is speaker wire intended for installed applications. 12 AWG, twisted, jacketed and the insulation is fairly thin stuff on the actual wires and not bonded to the wire itself. Not something you'd want to use outside in the weather.

-Bruce

[emorphien]

Old thread, so I'm bumping it any way. I'm not sold on the differences between cables in the sense that $5000 cables will sound better than $500 or $50. There does seem to be truth in matching the electrical characteristics to the components you're using but I don't have money to throw at trying different things.

I've been using inexpensive part express cable for years, but I sure do love the look of those bigger fancier cables (lets say staying under $200 for a stereo pair if I had to pick a range). I suppose it's not entirely unreasonable to spend a bit extra for the aesthetic and the build quality, but beyond having the proper gauge I don't frankly give a damn about how it sounds. The difference is either too small or more than likely often non-existant.

I do love the look of those Audioquest Bedrock cables at AudioAdvisor. *swoon*