Speaker cables - what do you use...?

[TerryB]

LOL, i didn't realise i'd walked into the Thou Must Not Challenge The Doctrine That RadioShack's Finest Will Do The Job Just As Well As Anything forum!!

Jesus guys, open your minds (and ears?!!). I can only repeat what i've said previously. If somebody wants to come over here to the UK, i will guarantee, monetarily if necessary, that i can demonstrate the difference between my SPM and Red Dawn, for instance. It isn't even *nearly* similar, for Christ's sake!!! Bring all the blindfolds you want!!

I clipped the end of the quote because i have no knowledge of the tests that were carried out, but i am absolutely NOT going to base my entire belief system around somebody else's findings!! You're not doing THAT, are you?!

Sure, room acoustics are important, there's no denying. But if you honestly believe that speaker cable can't make a difference, i just have to drop my jaw in disbelief. Seriously.

Terry

[drseid]

LOL, i didn't realise i'd walked into the Thou Must Not Challenge The Doctrine That RadioShack's Finest Will Do The Job Just As Well As Anything forum!!

Jesus guys, open your minds (and ears?!!). I can only repeat what i've said previously. If somebody wants to come over here to the UK, i will guarantee, monetarily if necessary, that i can demonstrate the difference between my SPM and Red Dawn, for instance. It isn't even *nearly* similar, for Christ's sake!!! Bring all the blindfolds you want!!

I clipped the end of the quote because i have no knowledge of the tests that were carried out, but i am absolutely NOT going to base my entire belief system around somebody else's findings!! You're not doing THAT, are you?!

Sure, room acoustics are important, there's no denying. But if you honestly believe that speaker cable can't make a difference, i just have to drop my jaw in disbelief. Seriously.

Terry

Start dropping your jaw Terry... ;-)

---Dave

[risabet]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.

Audioquest Indigo in a shotgunned configuration. I am considering auditioning the PS Audio Statement cables and the Audioquest Earth Feature series, specifically the Pike's Peak and Mont Blanc models.

[Woochifer]

LOL, i didn't realise i'd walked into the Thou Must Not Challenge The Doctrine That RadioShack's Finest Will Do The Job Just As Well As Anything forum!!

No, you just stumbled upon a group of posters who prefer value for what they invest in their systems.

Jesus guys, open your minds (and ears?!!). I can only repeat what i've said previously. If somebody wants to come over here to the UK, i will guarantee, monetarily if necessary, that i can demonstrate the difference between my SPM and Red Dawn, for instance. It isn't even *nearly* similar, for Christ's sake!!! Bring all the blindfolds you want!!

You can repeat all you want. I've done enough cable listenings to come to my own conclusions about the value of speaker cable upgrades relative to other system upgrades -- pretty much near the bottom of the priority list.

No need for blindfolds, just an honest listening where you don't know what you're listening to in advance. You don't even need elaborate testing equipment, just someone in the back of the system swapping out the cable pairs at random. I've done cable comparisons under both sighted and blind conditions, so I'm aware of how the magnitude of "difference" changes when you don't see the brand or look of the cable before listening. That's what McIntosh and Dunlavy confirmed in their demos.

I clipped the end of the quote because i have no knowledge of the tests that were carried out, but i am absolutely NOT going to base my entire belief system around somebody else's findings!! You're not doing THAT, are you?!

If you're going to base your belief system around sighted listenings, then you need to be aware that people who take you up on your *guarantee* might demand a more rigorous and reliable comparison than a simple show-and-tell session. And they might ask you to make your case first without the sight biases to assist you.

My views on cables have been reinforced through my own listenings and measurements over the past 20+ years. I've done my own foolery with friends before where I pretended to switch out a component or cable, and have them gush over how much "improvement" they heard when in fact I had not changed a thing. This type of placebo effect is not just someone else's findings, it's what I've observed as well.

In recommending system upgrades, I prefer to focus on areas that provide the most real world improvement for the amount spent. Expensive speaker cables IMO represent the exact inverse of that price/value equation.

Sure, room acoustics are important, there's no denying. But if you honestly believe that speaker cable can't make a difference, i just have to drop my jaw in disbelief. Seriously.

Never said that they don't make a difference, only that the differences are too small to be worth a damn.

[NoMSG]

LOL, i didn't realise i'd walked into the Thou Must Not Challenge The Doctrine That RadioShack's Finest Will Do The Job Just As Well As Anything forum!!

Jesus guys, open your minds (and ears?!!). I can only repeat what i've said previously. If somebody wants to come over here to the UK, i will guarantee, monetarily if necessary, that i can demonstrate the difference between my SPM and Red Dawn, for instance. It isn't even *nearly* similar, for Christ's sake!!! Bring all the blindfolds you want!!

I clipped the end of the quote because i have no knowledge of the tests that were carried out, but i am absolutely NOT going to base my entire belief system around somebody else's findings!! You're not doing THAT, are you?!

Sure, room acoustics are important, there's no denying. But if you honestly believe that speaker cable can't make a difference, i just have to drop my jaw in disbelief. Seriously.

Terry

People who go for the 12 gauge oxygen-free zip cords report not being to hear an noticeable difference AND cite to objective listening tests in support of this.

The supporters of pricey cables always rely on anectdotal evidence: "I can tell the difference...really!" Even in medicine, the placebo effect is well documented. Why do these supporters believe they alone are exempt from this principle?

[kfalls]

I agree paying megabucks for speaker wires is silly, but I don't agree all wires sound the same. I've tried many wires, zip cords, semi-rigid solid-core, 12ga & 10ga Monster and even tried combining multiple strands of CAT5 and did hear differences. I currently use AudioQuest GR8 SST cables in my main Home Theater system. Not so much for their sonic capabilities, but because of their build quality, asthetics and price. I found them in a Stereophile advertisement @ $99/12' pair. The conductors are equivalent to 9ga, have quality terminations and an exterior woven sheath (in a variety of colors, makes it easy to color code channels).

I have them connected to Legacy Focus mains and Legacy Silver Screen center. The Focus are bi-amped, with the GR8s connected to the high/mid and 12ga Aperture cable connected between a Yamaha M-65 (170W) amp to the 3 12" woofers/ch. The center is connected via single GR8 and the rears have 35' runs of 12ga Aperture connecting my T&A P-30 3-way rears. I'm driving the 5 HT channels with a Denon AVR-3300.

As far as sound is concerned I have no complaints. I use my system mainly for HT (75%) and the sound is detailed, dynamic and imaging right on. I also listen to music with my universal Pioneer DVD (SACD and DVD-Audio sounds pretty awesome).

Is there real value in manufactured cables? I believe so, moreso for their build quality, asthetics and endurance. Will buying $1000/ch wires make my system sound $5000 better? I don't think so. The curve on diminishing returns is pretty steep. There are just too many links in the chain. I'd go broke upgrading my system to take advantage of any sonic improvements real or perceived. As with all other choices in life, common sense goes a long way.

[Vardo]

I personally can't tell the difference between 16ga zip cord or 10ga. I do
think that there are possibly differences between cables due to their construction. When I bought my Mirage M5 speakers years ago, the salesman
offered to sell me a pair of Audioquest cables at his cost. They were the diameter of garden hoses. I took them home and gave them a try, and I
thought I heard a slight difference comparing them to the 16ga wire. Problem
was I didn't care for the difference....I liked the 16ga wire better.
Also alot of the differences people hear are do to physiological factors.
The cable are bigger, look cool, etc...so they must sound better.
If you can hear an improvement in sound due to the cables your using, then
that's great......personally I just use 14 to 16ga wire and it works for me....vardo

[thepogue]

I bought them used for 300...

they look cool and they sound great...I'm not sure if they sound great cuz they look cool...or if they are cool cuz they sound great...or they are great cuz they are cool...or they are great-cool cuz they were used and cheap for not-so-cheap-cool cables...or...ahhhh...never mind

I like'em and they impress my friends...even the blind ones!!


Peace, Pogue

[jecker]

Audioquest Indigo in a shotgunned configuration. I am considering auditioning the PS Audio Statement cables and the Audioquest Earth Feature series, specifically the Pike's Peak and Mont Blanc models.

I picked up some Pikes Peak for $500.00 They sound very natural but bit bass heavy or just more colored than the rest. Perhaps more was getting through than what I was used to. Turning down the bass tone fixed it. They need to be fully off the floor or the whole sound is muddy muffled.

[markw]

They need to be fully off the floor or the whole sound is muddy muffled.

I just love this line.

[JohnMichael]

In my sytem I use Alpha Core MI Center Stage speaker cables that cost about $129 when I purchased them several years ago. I am currently using 2 pair of Alpha Core Micro Purl for cd to int. amp and phono preamp to int. amp and they cost about $89 a pair. I also own cables by Audioquest, Dayton(partsexpress),Monster, Nordost and Tara Labs. Yes Virginia they all sound different. When I was using the old Sony ES cdp the Nordost Black Knights sounded best but with the Sony changer/recorder the Micro Purls are better. The Alpha Cores are my favorites and work well in my system. Each one of us are more or less sensitive to different aspects of music reproduction. I am able to hear differences in cables while someone else might have perfect pitch and be bothered if my Rega TT runs a little fast. If you are not sensitive to differences in cables that is great for you. It will save you money. If you are you may make some poor choices until you find the cables that work best for you. I never tell anyone they do not hear something they do and I will not listen to anyone who tells me I can not hear something I can.

[iSteal]

I totally agree with Woochifer. You just need a cable with good insulation and good quality copper/silver and you're set to go. You don't have to pay thousands of $ to get quality sound or better - just different. I would say that room acoustics, speaker placement and source should be your 1st priority. But I'll be honest with you. I would never use a "standard" speaker wire from my local dealer - no matter how good it is for the price. It's a psychological effect.

I use a pair of Kimber 8 TC

[jtgofish]

I totally agree with Woochifer. You just need a cable with good insulation and good quality copper/silver and you're set to go. You don't have to pay thousands of $ to get quality sound or better - just different. I would say that room acoustics, speaker placement and source should be your 1st priority. But I'll be honest with you. I would never use a "standard" speaker wire from my local dealer - no matter how good it is for the price. It's a psychological effect.

I use a pair of Kimber 8 TC

This is a really good topic.I think there are good and bad sounding cables but always within the context of your own system and room.Differences between interconnects seem to be greater than those between speaker cables,but the differences are still there.
For me solid core copper cables sound much better than stranded.Axon and Kimber are examples of this but solid core lighting cable that costs $1 per metre probably sounds just as good.I know people with fantastic sounding systems that use this cable and I have heard other systems that use thousands of dollars of cables that sound terrible.
As far as blindfold listening goes Hi Fi Choice magazine did group blinfold reviewing of products for years and consistently found signifigant sonic differences between cables and rated them accordingly.

JT

[musicoverall]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.

I purchased off the secondary market and got them for about half the retail price of a grand.

I auditioned several and actually preferred the Nordost Valhalla but couldn't afford them. I'm not sure how things are at the moment but a year ago, nobody was selling their Valhallas! I heard why. The improvements with the Cardas over the others I auditioned but didn't choose were subtle but musically significant. It wasn't like replacing speakers or electronics, of course, but it was well worth the money I spent.

I currently do not biwire although I have in the past and noticed a very subtle improvement with the speakers I owned at the time.

[musicoverall]

LOL, i didn't realise i'd walked into the Thou Must Not Challenge The Doctrine That RadioShack's Finest Will Do The Job Just As Well As Anything forum!!

Jesus guys, open your minds (and ears?!!). I can only repeat what i've said previously. If somebody wants to come over here to the UK, i will guarantee, monetarily if necessary, that i can demonstrate the difference between my SPM and Red Dawn, for instance. It isn't even *nearly* similar, for Christ's sake!!! Bring all the blindfolds you want!!

I clipped the end of the quote because i have no knowledge of the tests that were carried out, but i am absolutely NOT going to base my entire belief system around somebody else's findings!! You're not doing THAT, are you?!

Sure, room acoustics are important, there's no denying. But if you honestly believe that speaker cable can't make a difference, i just have to drop my jaw in disbelief. Seriously.

Terry

When I was a newcomer to this site, I too was surprised that there was even a debate! After researching a little further, it seems this debate is about 25 years old. That fact hints at the idea that there really is no absolute answer. I respect the opinions of those that claim there are no differences or that those differences aren't worth it - I simply disagree.

While I was auditioning Nordost, there was one higher level model that I did not audition and I think it was the SPM. However, the Red Dawn did not exhibit the same sonic characteristics that the Valhalla did in my system. I tried to capture that sound as close as possible without spending that kind of cash and I was surprised that the rest of the line I auditioned was so different. Most brands have a signature sound throughout their line but Valhalla truly appears to be a breakthrough product.

How do you like the SPM? I couldn't find any used so wasn't able to audition it. It's certainly nicer to look at than the Cardas Neutral Reference I bought!

[GMichael]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.

I like the SoundKing 12ga. But I don't think that PartsExpress is selling it anymore. Still partsexpress.com has other good brands. Try their link.
The debate over speaker wire is an old one. There are some very inteligent people on both sides of the fence. I have found a difference between the 22ga that comes with most HT in a box systems and 16ga. Not such a difference from 16 to 12ga but the price wasn't much more so what the heck.
I'd say that you have to use a little sense. If you have a $40,000 system, then why cheap out on the wire and get a $20 roll of 18ga.? On the other hand, if you have a $500 system, then why spend $5000 on wire? Maybe 5 to 10% of what you spent on your system is good for wire.

Bi-wiring is a whole nother debate.

[JoeE SP9]

When I was a newcomer to this site, I too was surprised that there was even a debate! After researching a little further, it seems this debate is about 25 years old. That fact hints at the idea that there really is no absolute answer. I respect the opinions of those that claim there are no differences or that those differences aren't worth it - I simply disagree.

While I was auditioning Nordost, there was one higher level model that I did not audition and I think it was the SPM. However, the Red Dawn did not exhibit the same sonic characteristics that the Valhalla did in my system. I tried to capture that sound as close as possible without spending that kind of cash and I was surprised that the rest of the line I auditioned was so different. Most brands have a signature sound throughout their line but Valhalla truly appears to be a breakthrough product.

How do you like the SPM? I couldn't find any used so wasn't able to audition it. It's certainly nicer to look at than the Cardas Neutral Reference I bought!

About six years ago I got a buddy interested in this hobby. Just after upgrading to his present MG 3.3 r's he called me and told me he was replacing several of his cables because he didn't like the way they sounded. His wife had come into his listening room and told him his system sounded flat. He replaced 2 cables that he didn't like and he, I and his wife heard an improvement.
I used to think I knew it all. ie: "All wires and cables sound alike. All properly working electronics sound alike" As I've gotten older my mind has opened and I listen to the music instead of others opinions. I think all wires and cables speaker and otherwise can sound different. This also includes all electronics. It is the amount of difference and its' importance to you that matters. My own speaker cables are the full bore CAT-5 Ultra. They needed a substantial break in (50+ hrs) before they sounded right.
My first wife could hear when I changed amplifiers at the front door. She would come into my listening room and say things like "Please put the old amp back. The new one sounds harsh."

[musicoverall]

I listen to the music instead of others opinions. ]

That's it in a nutshell. Opinions, mine included, are pretty useless to anyone but those having them. My advice to anyone is listen for yourself, have an open mind, and go with what you hear... or don't hear. Other opinions and theories just confuse the issue.

[Bernd]

I agree with that sentiment. It took me just over six months of comparing cables to find what works for me with my electronics and my music in my room.
So nobody else could advice me. I tried many and ended up with Cardas Golden Reference IC and Speakercables and Kimber PK 10 and PK 14 Palladian Power cords.And yes I did blind listening tests (a friend swapped cables for me).
It's also true that this not inconsiderable expense would be false economy on a budget set up.

Bernd

[Pat D]

Here's a good one for the weekend...

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase)?

Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

How much different of a sound DID they make?

...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

Looking forward to comments.

Currently I use 16 gauge speaker wire about 10 feet long purchased at the nearest Canadian Tire store. The price was about $15 for 50 feet, but I think the price has gone up.

I had used some old Angstrom 12 gauge speaker cable about 23 feet long. I didn't want to cut it up in case I need the longer length in the future. 16 gauge is more than adequate for the short length involved and is much easier to work with. But I have nothing against overkill and would have gotten 14 guage had I found some.

I did not notice any difference in the sound that I would attribute to the speaker cables. The change in placement made a difference, of course.

As for your last question, no, I do not buywire.

[Mwalsdor_cscc_edu]

What kind of speaker cables do you use and cost (and if not list price, where did you purchase ?

DIY 24awg (5n) 99.999% pure silver wire encased in 20awg teflon. It cost $65 for 10' pair. I purchased the raw silver off Ebay and the teflon from Michael Percy Audio.


Have you tried different ones before deciding on your current one's?

I used the Silverline Audio [copper] cables for a few years with my Silverline Sonatina's. Of course, I'd sampled a number of different cables in my system over the years.


How much different of a sound DID they make?

Excellent results but not a "big" difference. The small gauge solid silver seemed to work better with my SET amp that also was wired internally with small gauge solid silver wire. I also use silver digital links. Much like the benefit realized from SET amplification, specifically with 45s, the silver wire only embellishes that experience, further "opening up" the sound while uncovering more information and presenting that with greater ease. The soundstage blossomed while the presentation became less forward, though more deeply layered. The silver wire was more transparent whereas the Silverline cables signature was more obvious. Overall the silver wire was more "complex" or more accurately allowed the complexity of the music to be heard more easily rather than the delivery technology. And for the money an excellent upgrade! [they cost less than a 1/4 of the price of the Silverlines]. The Silverline cables actually didn't cost me anything because they were included in the price of the Sonatina's. They were terminated with spades while the DIY "cables" were just bare wire to the binding posts.


...and lastly, my speakers have two sets of connectors for tweeter and bass drivers - if you use this setup does it make a big differance?

I played around with the Silverline cables on the bottom posts and the silver wire on top but ended up with just running the silver wire through both bottom and top posts - sans jumper cables. It's the cleanest connection. I never found that bi-wire made much of a difference in the applications I'm familiar.

[Resident Loser]

...50ft/ch of 10ga. jacketed sound re-enforcement(P.A.) wiring...and no, my speakers aren't 100ft apart...(just pre-empting the remarks from the usual suspects)...my gear is in another room...

Before that I had tried a pair of Polk Cobra's...this was some time ago mind you...they may have caused my integrated to go south in a puff of acrid, green smoke due to capacitance loading...at least that's a best guess...'til that point, there was no discernible sonic diff IMO...afterward, just a shop bill...

Before that probably some 12-14ga generic zip...

Remember, difference is just that and nothing more...very subjective AND anecdotal in nature...

Wire is passive...it can "boost" one segment of the frequency spectrum only by attenuating another...it's all relative...


jimHJJ[...therefore, wire is wire...or more precisely: Since there is, at this time, no objective, conclusive and repeatable evidence provided by currently applied and accepted test methodology and within commensurate parameters germaine to the subject under test to the contrary, further augmented by analysis of subjective evaluation produced under strict controls and protocols, there simply is no proof, other than that provided as anecdotal evidence (which is subject to a vast array of potential biases) that there is any significant audible difference in wire of a similar type, length and gauge.;-p...]

[Resident Loser]

I just love this line.

jimHJJ(...and $400 wooden volume knobs...)

[LeoRousseau]

All wires are NOT created equal....... About 7 years ago when I was into audio there was and still is a high end audio shop within 10 miles from me and I used to frequent the place.... I bought a nice pair of PSB Images from them and a pair of Celestions from them when Celestions were good.... They let me take home to try out about 4 different pairs of high end speaker cables like Goertz,MIT's, XLO's and a couple others and I noticed a big difference when changing to a certain one.... It really can change the depth or the warmth of the music depending on the wire.... Now one wire that sounds awesome on a certain speaker might not sound awesome on another speaker.....

[superpanavision70mm]

I have been using the PS Audio xstreams for about 1 month and they are awesome. Not only do they 'look' serious, but they also 'sound' serious. I have heard other mixed reviews, but quite honestly it also has to do with your speaker and components because these suckers really do sound good with the right combination of gear.