Newbie asking a not-so-smart question about cables....

[angelgz]

Hi Guys,

First of all, thanks to all of your inputs!! I've been using this site for 5 years now and finally built myself a complete system based on the reviews / comments posted here!

As you can see I don't have the greatest setup yet, so apparently, I don't have much money to squander. I have heard mixed debates about cables. I am currently using these not-so-great monster cable THX wires for both analog interconnect and speaker wires. Can any of your give me some suggestions as to if I should replace these to hear a difference? According to someone, when he replaced his cables on the Krell system, it made a huge difference just night and day. However, I find this hard to believe because a change of medium improves the transfer of electrons by so little that's almost neglectable over short distance. Even if you take resistance and interference into consideration, I find it hard to believe that going through 10 feet of copper wires from radioshack for $3 vs going through 10 feet of silver cable for $2,000 would result in a noticable difference. I say this mainly because my wires are so short. I mean if you have a room with 50 feet of wiring, sure, better medium will definitely help

Lastly, I heard psychological reason is also part of the equation. If I spent $2,000 on a cable, it would be more like a "make-believe" that I am hearing better music because my brain is telling me, "you spent $2000 so it must sound super good."

I hope you guys can give me some insights, if I should get rid of my monster cables. I am a very practical guy so my brain, unfortunately, doesn't tell me "I am hearing better music" even though I am not. : )

Thank you all.

[angelgz]

Sorry, forgot to list my system details:

Equipment List:
Rotel RSP 1570 Preamp
Parasound Halo A53 5 - Channel Amp
Parasound New Classic - 5 Channel Amp
Dynaudio - Customized Fronts 5 Drives each
B&W Nautilus HTM1 Center
Dynaudio Contour 1.1 Surround Backs
Vienna Acoustics Schonberg Surround Sides.
Vienna Acoustics Subson Subwoofer.

Main usage: Classical orchestra, operas and symphonies.

[markw]

Monster cables are decent, like most other cables, but grossly over-advertised and overpriced. Their advertising is akin to hiring Billy Mays to sell something. They work, but not to the level at which it's advertised. But hey, the expectations sometimes satisfy some people.

And, the point of diminishing returns is lower than advertisers might have you believe. I seriously question the veracity or critical listening abilities of anyone who claims a "night and day" difference between two cables of similar construction. Subtle, perhaps under some ideal conditions, but how closely must one listen to realize it. Is it sustainable in real-world conditions?

And, I never could understand what a "THX Certified" cable implies.

[Mr Peabody]

This is probably one of the hottest debated topics ever. The only way you will know is to try for yourself. Personally, my system has benefited from better cables and the difference was noticeable. Comparing cables is something I've done quite a bit and there is differences. Some subtle some pretty obvious. I guarantee you put some Transparent cables between an amp like the Parasound and Dynaudio speakers you will hear a difference. You say you are budget minded yet have put together a good system so if you want to get the most out of it you should at least try some better cables. Most any hi fi shop worth their salt will lend you some to try.

That phsycological nonsense you've read irritates me to no end. Didn't you hear the difference in your amps or speakers when you evaluated them? Then, why would cables be any different? Besides that you don't buy them up front, you either borrow them or buy under a 30 day return. I'm not shooting the messenger, I've heard that crap before. That is an insult to you, me, or anyone who takes this hobby seriously. If we aren't competent enough to hear differences then why do we have the gear we do? Just because you can't explain why it happens doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It wasn't until recent years that anyone claimed to know how a bee flies but it didn't keep all of them on the ground.

I'd be interested to know what you meant buy "custom" on your main speakers. Dynaudio builds all their speakers by hand including the drivers and coils. It would have cost a fortune to have custom drivers built.
At some point your system would benefit from a matching, or close to matching, center channel speaker. To my ears there's a pretty good difference between the presentation of Dyn's and B&W.

[angelgz]

Thank you guys for replying. I know Audioquest is a good brand but their mid-low level cables don't really have good reviews. I checked out the Gibraltars but they are REALLY expensive. Tara labs, for some reasons, I think they are phasing themselves out. I don't see many dealers carry this brand anymore, and there aren't as many on ebay as Audioquest. So which brand is good for an entry level guy like me?

Mr Peabody,
My fronts used to be an incomplete Finale kit from dynaudio (missing the D260 tweeters). I ordered that about 4 or 5 years ago from someone in Denmark plus 2 x D21 tweeters. I built it myself to the best of my skills using MDF from homedepot, but I felt it's lacking the highs and too much base (due to the double 12"s). Plus, I was never a big fan of square boxes because according to a good friend of mine, square boxes result in more resonance. I've done some research and found that pyramid boxes are most ideal so this time I had my carpenter friend build a pyramid box for me 6ft tall, using 3/4 inch high density fiber boards plus a 1/8 inch layer of rubber on top of the wood and finally apply the vinyl. I also replaced the d21 tweeters, one of the 30w100 woofers with Morel ST1088 and Dynaudio Esotec MD172. I also added some xovers to make the new drives function correctly. They actually sound really good I have to say. Honestly these speakers can just run by themselves since I designed them to be tri-amped.

Thanks Again,
Angelgz.

[Mr Peabody]

Did you use Dynaudio's measurements for cubic feet and port? With two of their 12's I bet you do have some bass.

As in my earlier post I would recommend some Transparent cables. Their entry RCA's I believe are $80.00 give or take. Not sure any more on price of speaker connects. With Transparent I would recommend spades if you think you might be unplugging them much.

If you want to try lesser expensive the Blue Jeans are good. The Blue Jeans have a balanced sound with more emphasis in the midrange. Transparent will have the midrange detail but emphasize a stronger bass and more extended highs compared to the Blue Jean. It sounds like you have bass covered but the improvement Transparent makes in that region is tightening it up and giving more of a punch.

A few of us here use the Siltech, New Yorker from the MXT Pro series. These are very good cables but you are looking at maybe $300.00 for RCA cables.

[angelgz]

Mr Peabody,

When I put together the Finale the first time, I just followed the blue print came with the box. The box was ported and the base was muddy. However, the second time, since I changed it to a pyramid design, I took down the specifications, e.g. Vas, Q mechanical, electrical...etc, of the drives and made a closed box accordingly. I read many reviews online and also based on personal experience, a closed box produces more clean base. I also designed the box in a way that i would accept an external xover system. My next project is going to be that and I'll build my own tube amps ha~.

Have you heard of Kimber Kable? It's got some good reviews here but they are very very expensive. I found a few on eBay going for around $250. Are they worth it?

Thanks,
Angelgz.

[angelgz]

One more dumb question from me:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...id=p2759.l1259

This is perfect for me in terms of price and length. Can I slice it make my own terminals? Or will that drastically damage the performance of the cable?

Thanks.

[Kevio]

That phsycological nonsense you've read irritates me to no end. Didn't you hear the difference in your amps or speakers when you evaluated them? Then, why would cables be any different? Besides that you don't buy them up front, you either borrow them or buy under a 30 day return. I'm not shooting the messenger, I've heard that crap before. That is an insult to you, me, or anyone who takes this hobby seriously.

The psychological nonsense annoyed the crap out of doctors too. But in the name of better medicine, they've managed to accept things like the placebo effect and observer bias gracefully. I guess it helps that all doctors study psychology in medical school.

[E-Stat]

Can any of your give me some suggestions as to if I should replace these to hear a difference? According to someone, when he replaced his cables on the Krell system, it made a huge difference just night and day.

Night and day you will not find even if you bought Nordost Odins for your system. There are degrees of improvement, but they are incremental. While I particularly like JPS Labs stuff, you might try out some relative inexpensive, but good value Belden cable found in the Blue Jeans Cable line. I use some of their digital ICs from transport to DAC and a set of BC-1 ICs from DAC to power amp. BTW, what is (are) your source(s)? Shielded low capacitance cables can really improve the run from CDP to preamp. I would also recommend looking into some power conditioning. Especially since you are a classical music fancier, I've found that such can lower the noise floor which is more apparent on wide dynamic range acoustical content.

I've always listened to relatively expensive stuff at home in my system on a trial basis. That's really the only way to determine whether or not a given higher priced spread can offer real benefits to your system.

Good luck!

rw

[Mr Peabody]

Kevio, If some one gave me liver and told me it was steak it would still taste like liver. If they give me a Radio Shack cable to compare to my cables with no label and told me it was the greatest cable ever it would still sound like a Radio Shack cable. The placebo effect has no bearing on electronics, either there is a change or not and if some one can't tell for themselves they need another hobby or just buy what ever gear gets the job done and not worry about sound quality. Doctors study what ever it takes to get their diploma, it has no relevance to anything here.

I've tried power conditioning products that have promised to do things great for my system that went back because I detected more of an adverse effect. I bought a pair of very expensive speaker connects that were supposed to be better than the New Yorker and was a deal because of being closed out. That cable went back and I bought the New Yorker. This is just to illustrate that not everything I've tried has worked out.

"Night & Day" is a subjective term but there have been at least two occasions I can recall that I thought came pretty close because the difference should have been heard by a deaf monk. I'm sounding like Pix here. The Krell reference might have even been mine because when I first went from some bare ended Audioquest speaker wire to my first set of Transparent speaker cables the improvement was incredible, huge. The second time is when I was using a 3 meter pair of some type Monster from my CJ preamp to power amp until my Siltech arrived, switching to the Siltech sounded practically like a whole new system.

Angelgz, I prefer sealed enclosures as well. I'd love to hear those. I heard a pair of Dyn's with a single 12 driven by a huge Krell amp, those things shook the building. If the parasound has the juice I'd imagine you get some serious low end.

A word of advice on cables, I'd recommend paying the money and buying from an authorized dealer. There is a lot of counterfit stuff sold on Ebay and similar sites. Which is a real shame. Besides, why spend money if you don't know what if anything the cable will do. Try before you buy. I'm not asking you to take my word there is a difference, I'm asking you to trust enough to try for yourself. Before trying to do DIY cables just get some Blue Jeans and call it a day. From the little bit you've discussed I believe you would be able to tell if you were getting an improvement or not. It's really not that hard. I have not heard any Kimber. Hermanv, here on the board has built and experimented with cables before. He came to the conclusion to do a high end cable yourself after buying the parts it's just as cheap to buy them already built. He uses a series of Cardas. I can't remember the one but it is costly.

[Kevio]

I am not disputing the fact that there are audible differences between different cables. The point I'm trying to make is that in addition to that, there are psychological effects in play.

Doctors proved this to themselves with the discovery that they got starkly different results in sighted vs. blind trials of the same experiment.

I don't know that liver tastes like beef but, yes, food tastes markedly different when you eat it blindfolded. Try it!

Welcome to the strange world of the mind.

[RoadRunner6]

Mr. Peabody, we already know that we are on opposite sides of this controversy but you say:

"..........Didn't you hear the difference in your amps or speakers when you evaluated them? Then, why would cables be any different? .........."

You don't know why you would at least tend to hear more differences between speakers than cables (if any)? McIntosh used to used plain inexpensive cable inside their speakers (becasue their was no difference) until many of their golden eared customers pressured them to use the latest boutique brand wire.

I'm not trying to be a smarty here but are you in this business in any form? Just curious.

I agree with Kevio that psychological factors might clearly come into play when people compare two or more products when they in fact know the identity of the products. This has been shown in monitored product evaluations. When listening to products that the listener has a pre-conceived opinion of superiority he tends to hear a difference. When listening under blind conditions he cannot identify that same difference.

RR6

[Mr Peabody]

I'm not in the business and the point being if one is capable of telling whether one amp or any audio component sounds better or different than the other then they should certainly be competent enough to tell whether a cable has made a difference or not. If your argument against cables holds water then it has to hold water for ALL audio components.

[Kevio]

I agree with Kevio that psychological factors might clearly come into play when people compare two or more products when they in fact know the identity of the products.

A little hedging there? Is anyone immune to these effects? I know I'm not but I really don't know the general answer. I'm sure there's some variation in susceptibility but does Mr./Ms. Sighted Objectivity exist?

The results I've seen for sighted vs. blind testing have been presented in statistical format - no breakdown for individual participants.

I've also heard anecdotes of people who were so confident they were unaffected by this psychological crap that they agree to do a sighted vs blind trial. I've yet to hear of a case where objecivity prevailed over psychology. But perhaps that's selective listening on my part.

[Auricauricle]

Mr. P: I think your statement, "The placebo effect has no bearing on electronics, either there is a change or not and if some one can't tell for themselves they need another hobby or just buy what ever gear gets the job done and not worry about sound quality" is a pretty bold one, in consideration of the very good possibility that many here--myself included--don't have much experience listening to very high-end equipment or the ability to distinguish those nuances of performance that only those whose lineage can be charted on the American Kennel Club have.

For folks who have the benefit of those things, maybe there is a difference. To the rest of us, the ability to do so takes time, effort and a whole lot of pizza. I don't think that prospect is an appealing one for most folks, who simply want something that sounds very nice and not break their hearts, heads or wallets to do so.

Maybe they should not worry so much, but telling folks to simply buy whatever is out there and not worry about it is a disservice to those earnest people who want to pursue this passion and to those of us who have some duty in sharing what we have learned to the teeming throng.

[RoadRunner6]

If your argument against cables holds water then it has to hold water for ALL audio components.

Sorry, but I don't know how to respond to that statement any way but directly. Your logic is very flawed. You can't make a distinction between a cable and a speaker with enclosure, driver, voice coil, wires, crossover, etc.?

[Kevio]

I'm following Mr. P's logic. You can clearly affect performance of your system by swapping out your source, amp or speakers. Cables are a system component too so it stands to reason that changing those would affect system performance as well.

I think the logic is solid. Why the hostility?

[Auricauricle]

My hostility comes, in part, from dismissal of the placebo effect, a matter that--in my mind--has profound implications to many things medical and psychological up to, and including, musical experience. I happen to agree that with cables (etc.), appreciable differences can be found and articulated in cogent terms. I temper this with caution that consumers should be ever vigilant that they aren't taken by cosmetics or other devices that distract them from their ability to make those decisions when their digging into their wallets to buy "the next best thing"*.

*Take it from one who knows all too well.

[Kevio]

Here's another angle: People who buy expensive cables clearly derive enjoyment from them. Whether that's from better sound or better psychology, what does it matter?

[Auricauricle]

Hey, I was havin' a sensitive moment, all right?? Sheesh!

Clearly. What, indeed, does it matter?

What matters?

What's the matter?

(Grumble!*)

[RoadRunner6]

Cables are a system component..........Why the hostility?

Am I the only one here who would not consider wire and cables a system component.

Hostility? Sorry, but I had no idea I was being hostile. The argument that one can hear differences in speakers and therefore should hear differences in wire is very flawed. Fuzzy Logic. That to me is a huge stretch and I simply said so. I really don't know how to sugar coat it any other way.

Does it follow that since I can hear huge differences in speakers I can therefore should be able to hear huge differences in Y splitters?

[Mr Peabody]

Mr. P: I think your statement, "The placebo effect has no bearing on electronics, either there is a change or not and if some one can't tell for themselves they need another hobby or just buy what ever gear gets the job done and not worry about sound quality" is a pretty bold one, in consideration of the very good possibility that many here--myself included--don't have much experience listening to very high-end equipment or the ability to distinguish those nuances of performance that only those whose lineage can be charted on the American Kennel Club have.

For folks who have the benefit of those things, maybe there is a difference. To the rest of us, the ability to do so takes time, effort and a whole lot of pizza. I don't think that prospect is an appealing one for most folks, who simply want something that sounds very nice and not break their hearts, heads or wallets to do so.

Maybe they should not worry so much, but telling folks to simply buy whatever is out there and not worry about it is a disservice to those earnest people who want to pursue this passion and to those of us who have some duty in sharing what we have learned to the teeming throng.

If some one was "ernest" and had any passion for the hobby they wouldn't be making the argument that cables make no difference without trying for themselves. It seems to me to be ernest in something would require an open mind.

Kevio, thanks for understanding what i was saying.

OK, RR6, once again I will try. Because there is a difference in speakers don't mean there is in cables, BUT, if some one had the ability to hear any difference in speakers they surely should be able to hear whether a cable made any difference or not when injected into the system. If the placebo skews ones ability to judge cables then it skews that person's judgment across the board for any and every product.

How about your Emotiva is a piece of crap and didn't make any difference from your receiver's internal amp you just imagined it because you paid $600.00 for it? Why pay more for just an amp than your entire receiver. There's no difference in sound your just too stupid to know the difference. You been plceboed and so willing to throw your money around you will buy anything. This is what your argument against cables sounds like.

[Smokey]

Am I the only one here who would not consider wire and cables a system component.

No, you are not the only one. Apparently the meaning of differences between an active component and a passive component is lost here.

[Mr Peabody]

Apparently, so is reading comprehension. At least you acknowledge the common thing about active and passive components is that they both are components.

Would you consider a speaker active or passive? What about a phono cartridge? Just curious.