Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 66
  1. #26
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Yonder
    Posts
    2,886
    Mea maxima culpa...

    And now, for my next trick, I will remove my head from an all too familiar place....

    Having been embroiled in this pursuit for quite a while, I have bought a number of cables and doo-dads to see if doing so would bring me closer to Seventh Heaven. My cables are by no means super-duper, but are an odd assortment of AT, Monster Cable, Audio Quest and others that have performed with varying results. So far, the sound I hear is good, especially when the shileding is intact and they don't lay down together in an buzzing orgy of serpentine dimensions.

    I respect that our heads are funny things that conspire to trick us to such extent that we will pretty much believe anything as long as we are compelled by the forces or greed, desire or whatever we are prey to in the right circumstances. Companies like MC and Bose know how to cater to his need, and markets goods to folks who are so dazzled by the pitch that they snap 'em up like herons on a mullet.

    I would like to see a demo of various cables for myself, sometimes. Perhaps someone blessed with a good vidcam can record the proceedings as the various wires are trotted out, For control purposes, the cables will be disguised and the listening will be performed double blind. Scores will be applied and the tally counted.

    I am sure some here will astutely make the correct choices while this is done.

    Me, nah. I got my Exorcist.

    Sorry about my blunder, folks. Next drink on me. Soy milk, anyone?
    Last edited by Auricauricle; 04-30-2009 at 06:56 AM.

  2. #27
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    10,176
    Aw Auric, don't go all passive aggressive on us

  3. #28
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Yonder
    Posts
    2,886
    Huh??
    "The great tragedy of science--the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact."--T. Huxley

  4. #29
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Apparently, so is reading comprehension. At least you acknowledge the common thing about active and passive components is that they both are components.

    Would you consider a speaker active or passive? What about a phono cartridge? Just curious.
    They are "transducers". They change energy from one form to another and are considered by all to be the most euphonic components. of the system by intent. They are shaped by their designers desire to manipulate sound to what they want it to be.

    As many here state, aren't cables and interconnects supposed to be as neutral as possible?

    Be careful, Mr.P. When even acknowledged subjectivists take issue with your grandiose statements, you've got a problem. You're starting to sound a lot like Melvin Walker did before he went super nova on us...

  5. #30
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Yonder
    Posts
    2,886
    "Acknowledged subjectivists..."? Are you implying that we can do all of this objectively?

    Whatever floats your soap....

    (We need some more fluid on that charcoal!)

  6. #31
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659
    Quote Originally Posted by Auricauricle
    "Acknowledged subjectivists..."? Are you implying that we can do all of this objectively?

    Whatever floats your soap....

    (We need some more fluid on that charcoal!)
    Hey, this is what happens when the only real test of true objectivity is removed from the discussion. It's like an asylum that is run by the inmates. (Hmmm.. .to what could he be referring?)

  7. #32
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    10,176
    The goal of all audio components are to supposedly be neutral, not just cables. It's interesting how you all try to segregate cables to promote your own agenda.

  8. #33
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659

    Well then, I guess that makes "neutral" a standard...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    The goal of all audio components are to supposedly be neutral, not just cables. It's interesting how you all try to segregate cables to promote your own agenda.
    Something by which others are judged.

    The next question is "what is neutral" and who can claim to judge that with objectivity, which IS a requirement, isn't it?

    Are you saying that's you? Your ears, without the benefit of any accurate scientific measurements, can proclaim when something meets or does not meet your subjective standards.

    Isn't that the very definition of hubris?
    Last edited by markw; 05-01-2009 at 02:49 AM.

  9. #34
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659
    Quote Originally Posted by Auricauricle
    "Acknowledged subjectivists..."? Are you implying that we can do all of this objectively?
    Not really. Personal preference plays a great part in this hobby, but for a more concrete picture of what's really going on and if what are hearing is real as opposed to imagined, measurements are a real boon.

  10. #35
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    10,176
    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Something by which others are judged.

    The next question is "what is neutral" and who can claim to judge that with objectivity, which IS a requirement, isn't it?

    Are you saying that's you? Your ears, without the benefit of any accurate scientific measurements, can proclaim when something meets or does not meet your subjective standards.

    * There is no reference for neutral. Maybe a flat line on an oscilloscope but most people really don't enjoy that although it's the sold standard. I can absolutely tell what meets my subjective standard. If not me then who? It would be sad if everyone was floundering around with test equipment because they didn't have a clue what they enjoyed. If this is you seek therapy. I don't need any test equipment to tell me if I am enjoying my hi fi system or whether or not I hear an improvement in any component switched out. Some do and some have not. If I could not make that judgment I would not have a system.

    Isn't that the very definition of hubris?
    * I'll look it up and get back with you.

  11. #36
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659

    Ah, I see.

    It's the old "because I say so" gambit. That sure takes the worry out of ever wondering if you could have made a mistake, doesn't it?

  12. #37
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Yonder
    Posts
    2,886
    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Hey, this is what happens when the only real test of true objectivity is removed from the discussion. It's like an asylum that is run by the inmates. (Hmmm.. .to what could he be referring?)
    Who said, "In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is King?"
    "The great tragedy of science--the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact."--T. Huxley

  13. #38
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659
    Quote Originally Posted by Auricauricle
    Who said, "In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is King?"
    Jon only has one working eye?

    Actually, Erasmus said this.

    But, holding ones hand over ones eyes to prevent seeing the truth is not the same as being blind. Although the person doing so might be comforted, it does not alter reality.
    Last edited by markw; 05-01-2009 at 10:35 AM.

  14. #39
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Blue Springs, MO
    Posts
    246
    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Are you saying that's you? Your ears, without the benefit of any accurate scientific measurements, can proclaim when something meets or does not meet your subjective standards.

    Isn't that the very definition of hubris?
    WOW! Just let me ask: Whose ears should Mr P use to decide what sounds best to him?

    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Personal preference plays a great part in this hobby, but for a more concrete picture of what's really going on and if what are hearing is real as opposed to imagined, measurements are a real boon.
    Scientific measurements are great but if you cannot hear a difference, what good are they to you? EVERYONE hears differently and if you really want to talk "real world", all you really have to please is yourself. PLACEBO is the word all that can't HEAR a difference like to throw around and it pisses off those of us that can hear a difference. It still comes down to: If YOU can't hear a difference, don't spend the extra money on ANY upgrade because nothing else matters but what you CAN hear.

  15. #40
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Blue Springs, MO
    Posts
    246
    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    It's the old "because I say so" gambit. That sure takes the worry out of ever wondering if you could have made a mistake, doesn't it?
    I didn't know what Hubris meant, but this statement lets me know why you are familiar with it.

  16. #41
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659

    Because of my interactions with people like you?

    I guess you buy a lot from Machina Dynamica.

    I know you won't believe this, but we humans are susceptible to suggestion. Unless you're an alien of some superior physiology and psychological make up, so are you.

    Ever try to guess the color/flavor of a life saver candy without seeing it?

    Try it. You might be surprised.

    But, hey, if it feels good to you, do it. Reality matters not.

  17. #42
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Blue Springs, MO
    Posts
    246
    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    Am I the only one here who would not consider wire and cables a system component.
    Can your system work without it? NO? Can it change the sound? Yes! Then it is a system component.

    Does it make as big a difference as speakers? It is all relative. Cables are more of a tweak. Do you use the skinny little cables that came with your components? I doubt it. If there was no difference we would all be using them and be happy.

    I think that is what Mr P was trying to say is that there is a difference and no-one can truly believe there isn't. From that point on it all depends on you and your ears as to what you should spend your money on.

  18. #43
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Blue Springs, MO
    Posts
    246
    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    I guess you buy a lot from Machina Dynamica.

    I know you won't believe this, but we humans are susceptible to suggestion. Unless you're an alien of some superior physiology and psychological make up, so are you.

    Ever try to guess the color/flavor of a life saver candy without seeing it?

    Try it. You might be surprised.

    But, hey, if it feels good to you, do it. Reality matters not.
    Your arrogance is incredible.

  19. #44
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659
    Quote Originally Posted by IBSTORMIN
    Your arrogance is incredible.
    Really? I admit to my limitations. Some refuse to. ...and I'm the arrogant one?

  20. #45
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Blue Springs, MO
    Posts
    246
    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Ever try to guess the color/flavor of a life saver candy without seeing it?
    If you can pick out which one you like best and didn't know what the color or flavor was, would it matter as long as you could get more to enjoy it?

  21. #46
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Blue Springs, MO
    Posts
    246
    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Reality matters not. Really? I admit to my limitations. Some refuse to. ...and I'm the arrogant one?
    As long as it matches YOUR reality.

  22. #47
    Suspended markw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Noo Joisey. Youse got a problem wit dat?
    Posts
    4,659
    My reality can be verified as fact.

    But, enjoy your perceptions.

    Many people are happier in their own personal world. Sometimes, imagined events can be better then the real thing.

  23. #48
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    10,176
    Markw, you should seriously get a check up if you need to see a Lifesaver is red to taste the charry, or can't discern wintergreen from spearmint. This is something "normal" people can do. Or, if not. I'm an abnormal being. I have no problem taking a Jolly Rancher from my pocket and eating it with out looking and knowing very well whether I got watermelon vs cherry vs grape or whatever. Sometimes I do this while watching a movie and never see the candy. Is this really difficult for any one?

  24. #49
    abNORMal IBSTORMIN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Blue Springs, MO
    Posts
    246

    MARKW-why did you ignore this?

    Quote Originally Posted by IBSTORMIN
    WOW! Just let me ask: Whose ears should Mr P use to decide what sounds best to him?



    Scientific measurements are great but if you cannot hear a difference, what good are they to you? EVERYONE hears differently and if you really want to talk "real world", all you really have to please is yourself. PLACEBO is the word all that can't HEAR a difference like to throw around and it pisses off those of us that can hear a difference. It still comes down to: If YOU can't hear a difference, don't spend the extra money on ANY upgrade because nothing else matters but what you CAN hear.
    MARKW:
    You ignored this question/comment and went right on the attack. Why?
    Can't deal with the real world???

  25. #50
    Audio/HT Nut version 1.3a
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,085
    Well, I guess it's time to haul Mr. Roger Russell out again and then get another lesson in illogical reasoning and debating from our resident Golden Eared Audiophiles.

    (Quoted from Mr. Roger Russell's website)

    Gordon Gow's Speaker Wire Listening Test

    I have read several magazine articles and papers expressing the findings and opinions about the various kinds of speaker wire. Some engineers have applied their expertise to make measurements to prove conclusively that there ARE differences between wires. A few authors have devoted their entire paper to the measurements and never mention whether they have actually made any listening tests or if they could hear any difference. Despite all the measurements and opinions, the final test is whether you can hear any difference or not. Obviously, this must be done under controlled conditions where you don't know which wire is connected and there is no delay in switching.

    In the early 1980's, special speaker wires were beginning to appear on the market. Some of the claims were totally unbelievable and had prices to match. Realizing that wire resistance was the critical factor in speaker wire, Gordon Gow, President of McIntosh Laboratory, used a speaker cable demonstration to show there was no listening difference between these wires and plain line cord. He delivered his presentation about the truth in speaker wire using a reel of Monster cable to stand on. Fifty-foot lengths of wire were used in the comparison. The setup consisted of a master control relay box and two slave relay boxes. A three-position switch was used to select one of three different speaker wires of equal length. One was line cord. The other two wires were from popular manufacturers. 8-ohm speakers were selected to be used in the test. The two other brand name wires were heavier than the line cord.

    The boxes now show some signs of wear. This is from being handled and traveling around in a large fiberglass case along with all of the speaker wires and connecting cables.

    A slave box was positioned at each speaker. Power to drive the relays in each slave box was provided with separate cables. The speaker wires were switched at both the power amplifier and the speaker so that only one kind of wire was connected at a time. Short pieces of heavy wire were run from the speakers and amplifier to the relay boxes. No other devices were used in the speaker line. The relay contact resistance was measured to be less than 0.1 ohms. No consistent listening differences were heard by customers or dealers.

    The test proved his point. When I took the test, I was unable to hear any differences using several different 8-ohm speaker systems. BUT, when I deliberately played one particular 4-ohm speaker and I switched to the line cord position, I could hear differences. I knew this system dipped down to 2.6 ohms in one frequency range, and 3 ohms in another. It verified that differences can be heard if the wire is too light for a lower impedance system. A system this low in impedance requires heavier wire. After replacing the line cord with a heavier line cord of equal length, differences could no longer be heard.


    THE KIND OF WIRE MADE NO DIFFERENCE

    It can be solid, stranded, copper, oxygen free copper, silver, etc.--or even "magic" wire--as long as the resistance is kept to be less than 5% of the speaker impedance. There is no listening difference as long as the wire is of adequate size.

    Of course, we are not personally able to establish the truth of everything for ourselves and it's not easy to set up a similar wire listening test. Very few people are able to make speaker impedance measurements or wire resistance measurements down to 0.1 ohms. Like many other things in life, we rely on indirect sources of information, such as sales literature, reviews and opinions. This is called Authority Belief, which is part of our belief system. An interesting article about the belief system is described in ETC: A Review Of General Semantics Sept. 1964 titled Images Of the Consumer's Mind by Milton Rokeach.

    Gordon Gow's cable demonstration provided a personal experience for customers that could replace the Authority Beliefs they had relied on earlier. The demonstration was controlled. It was an instant comparison and the listeners did not know the wire identification. Gordon held many such demonstrations in dealer showrooms and at shows.


    The Truth about Speaker Wire

    Despite the effectiveness of Gordon's cable demonstration and the truth about speaker wire, people visiting the McIntosh room at the shows, who had not experienced the cable demonstration, were disturbed that we were using ordinary heavy zip cord instead of one of the popular brands of speaker wire. Instead of listening to the McIntosh speakers and electronics, they recalled "bad" things they had been told about "common" speaker wire and this promoted questions about the "inferior" wire being used. When we changed the wire to a popular brand of wire, customers were happy with the setup, and directed their attention to the McIntosh equipment.

    The demand for high quality speaker wire was increasing and appeared to be a new marketing area for several companies. McIntosh did not make or sell speaker wire. The solution seemed very obvious--rather than spend time and effort to create negative sales for McIntosh dealers who were beginning to sell speaker wire, it seemed best to encourage the speaker owner/customer to consult with the dealer about what speaker wire to use. Consequently, I no longer recommended the kind of wire or wire sizes in the speaker manuals.

    By 1988, McIntosh no longer supplied audio interconnects with the electronics. Again, many kinds of special audio cables were available to the customer/owner. The dealer could also be consulted about what cables to use.

    I credit the success of the speaker wire industry to their expert sales and marketing ability. However, it is my experience that ordinary copper wire, as long as it's heavy enough, is just as good as name brands.

    Looking at this from a different perspective, there will always be those who will want expensive wire, not because there is an audible difference, but because they may value pride of ownership and prestige in a similar way to that of owning a Tiffany lamp or a Rolex watch.


    Cardas Wire and the IDS-25

    If I donít believe that expensive speaker wire makes an audible difference, why is it used inside the IDS-25 speaker system? The answer is very simple. IDS is out to sell speakers and not everyone believes in ordinary wire. The explanation is the same as what McIntosh found at shows and is described in the section above. Cardas wire does not sound any better but it may help to sell speakers to those who are concerned about wire and are not convinced that ordinary wire is just as good. The increase in cost is negligible compared to the drivers, enclosures and equalizer.


    Stereo Review Dares to Tell the Truth (1983)

    A 6-page article by Laurence Greenhill titled "Speaker Cables: Can You Hear the Difference?" was published in Stereo Review magazine on August 1983. It compared Monster cable, 16-gauge wire and 24-gauge wire. The price at that time for a pair of 30-foot lengths of monster cables was $55.00. The cost for 16 gauge heavy lamp cord was $.30/foot or $18.00 and the 24 gauge "speaker wire" was $.03/foot or $1.80

    "...So what do our fifty hours of testing, scoring and listening to speaker cables amount to? Only that 16-gauge lamp cord and Monster cable are indistinguishable from each other with music and seem to be superior to the 24 gauge wire commonly sold or given away as 'speaker cable.' Remember, however, that it was a measurable characteristic--higher resistance per foot--that made 24 gauge sound different from the other cables. If the cable runs were only 6 instead of 30 feet, the overall cable resistances would have been lower and our tests would probably have found no audible differences between the three cables. This project was unable to validate the sonic benefits claimed for exotic speaker cables over common 16-gauge zip cord. We can only conclude, therefore, that there is little advantage besides pride of ownership in using these thick, expensive wires"

    Needless to say there was a strong letter to the editor in the October Stereo Review from Noel Lee, President of Monster Cable. "...was not the conclusion of nearly three thousand Monster Cable purchasers who participated in a warranty/response card survey in 1981-1982. Among those responding, 56 per cent indicated 'an overall significant improvement, '42 per cent attested to a 'noticeable improvement,' and only 2 per cent wrote back that they heard no difference in system performance."...

    Yes, some of this claim is believable but for the wrong reasons. If the wire used previously had resistance that was too high, there would be an audible difference. If the wire connections at the amplifier or speaker were loose or corroded, installing the new cable tightly would make an audible difference.

    Then we get into the more subjective evaluation. Suppose you're already using adequate size wire and have good connections at the speaker and amplifier. If you're then told the new wire will make an improvement, you will be looking for it and truly believe that you hear an improvement. Some people might go as far as saying "If I spent all that money for these cables, you can be sure I'm going to hear a difference." (rather than admit I wasted my money or have bad hearing).

    There are other factors as well. If you listen to the system with the old wires and then replace them with the new ones, it could take 5 or 10 minutes to do this. By then you will have forgotten what the old sound was like. How many of the customers made an instant and more reliable comparison like what was done in Gordon Gow's demonstration or in the Stereo Review test? I wonder how these customers would fare in a test where they didn't know which wire was being used.

    Stereo Review Gets More Conservative (1990)

    A 5 page article by Rich Warren titled "Getting Wired" was published in Stereo Review in June 1990. It devotes 4 and a half pages to the creative claims and descriptions by the various wire manufacturers. Near the end of the article reference is made to an Audio Engineering Society paper by R. A. Greiner published in the JAES in May 1980 and titled "Amplifier-Loudspeaker Interfacing." The conclusion is that speaker cables do not behave as transmission lines despite the theory subscribed to by many, if not most, esoteric cable designers.

    This time the conclusion in Stereo Review was extremely conservative. Perhaps this was due to the influence of speaker wire advertisers who pay for their magazine ads. As in Gordon Gow's wire demonstration, wire sales, advertising and dealer profits were hurt by the truth about speaker wire.

    "Are there real sonic differences between audio cables? We leave that up to each individual to decide. What we can say is that there are some valid reasons, described in the box on the facing page (cable pictures and manufacturer descriptions), to use good cables in your hi-fi system. Which theory you choose to subscribe to and how high a price you're willing to pay for cable comfort is up to you."

    An Honest Answer from Sound & Vision (2001)

    Here's an answer by Ian Masters in the May 2001 issue of Sound & Vision, page 36 Q&A.
    Note: I saw no speaker wire advertisements in this issue!

    "Cheap Wire
    Q. Would it be okay for me to use single conductor wire as speaker cables running through the attic or under the house? Does stranded wire provide some sonic benefit? It would be far cheaper and easier for me to run 12-gauge wire to a plate with banana receptacles and then use specialty cable at each end to patch to the amplifier and speakers. Jon Schwendig, Santa Clara, CA

    A. There are a lot of myths about speaker wires, but in the end it's thickness that counts, and 12 gauge should be heavy enough for any reasonable domestic application. I've taken several comparative listening sessions over the years, and the sort of wire you want to use involves no sonic degradation that I (or anybody else in the tests) could hear. You could even wire the whole distance from amp to speakers using 12-gauge, but it would probably be more convenient to use something more flexible for the actual connection to components. Specialty audiophile cables would serve that purpose nicely, although more modest cables would work just as well."

    (Roger Russell,
    Author, Artist, Engineer, Inventor, Photographer, Collector, and formerly
    Director of Acoustic Research
    at McIntosh Laboratory, Inc. and the originator of
    McIntosh Loudspeakers)

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •