This method of cable evaluation, as an alternative to DBT.

[skeptic]

I'm telling you what I,I,I, yes me, myself, EYE was thinking. I don't know what anybody else thought. I never have and I never will. Even if they tell me what they are thinking, I can never be sure. Until I saw them for myself, I thought they were huge horn speakers. If you want to know what RL was thinking, ask him yourself. Sheeesh.

Did I leave something out of the story? OK, here's the whole story;

I was born a long long time ago at a very early age........

[skeptic]

It seems to me that the only one who actually would be under pressure is someone who makes or sells one of the products being tested. Or who has already paid for it. To prove that they have the better product. Otherwise, why would anyone care which was which.

[skeptic]

Well if that doesn't prove that a lawyer can argue both sides of an arguement, I don't know what does. It seems to me it was just a few postings ago you were lauding the praises of Richard Greene as a fair open minded person willing to try out cables before making a judgement and being a nice fair all around guy. Now its insults. Love affair over so soon? Well, on the bright side, there's still Steve Eddy. I don't think he'll insult you. At least not here. He won't give this message board the time of day. Better try over at Cable Asylum, or should I say one of the other asylum boards since Der Furher threw him off CA for his blasphemy challenging the party line. Yavol.

[Richard Greene]

All you can conclude about blind cable comparisons, assuming you believe the methodology was good, is that certain people listening to a certain system and certain music were unable to hear differences ... on ... that ... day.

That's the science.

The psychology is that some of the same people who couldn't hear differences under blind conditions claimed to hear differences minutes earlier during a sighted warm-up audition.

After you witness that behavior repeatedly, you get the impression people are biased toward hearing differences whether they exist or not.

Deception tests where audiophiles are tricked into believing there are two components being compared when there is only one component show that 70-75% of the time an audiophile will prefer either A or B when in fact there is no B.

That's up to 25 points better than the 50%/50% split you might expect and represents a "hearing differences" bias.

Any audiophile who declares a wire makes no audible difference without listening to it
("all wires sound the same") is just guessing based on incomplete evidence or baiting Golden Ears into internet argument, which I would NEVER do.***

Of course listening to a wire could lead to the belief differences were heard when they were merely imagined (expected).

All wires do not sound the same.

I have heard differences several times in speaker wires over 50 feet long.

I have heard differences between clean and corroded wire terminations,
and loose versus tight connections.

However I have not yet heard differences among 10 foot speaker wires
(double-blind) or 3 foot interconnects (single-blind) when listening to music,
so I don't give wires that much thought anymore.

I am, however, willing to try dozens of speaker/listener positions within the same room to find the optimum positions.

__________________________________________________ ________

*** More than several times a day, that is.

[markw]

Most people I know who use after-market cables aren't really concerned about their cable beliefs. They simply want something that improves their perceived quality of enjoyment of their listening.

A little Cardinal Mendoza works for me. That, and a caipirinha or two and perhaps some Bustello coffee. ... and my comfy slippers.

Doesn't do squat for the sound, but it sure improves the percieved quality of my listening enjoyment.

[skeptic]

"What drives the cable market has nothing to do with scientific tests. Only a few anal engineers really care about that."

I guess that's me. After a few years of listening to what both sides have to say, and keeping in mind my own training and experience, I have decided that this debate has ended for me. I've given proponents of various alternative audio cables and power cords about 3 or more years to convince me that they have something worth pursuing. And in all that time, not once has any one of them even raised my eyebrow. I am now convinced that whatever the preferences or rationale there is behind one cable or another, more than any audio component by far, only the electrical performance of cables in a laboratory matters. And what's more, even if one cable is marginally better than another by say being a few tenths of a decibel flatter at 20 khz, it doesn't matter. Trying to find cables that will negate one shortcoming of a sound system by introducing another complimentary shortcoming is a fool's game. So after all these years, I'll stick with my Radio Shack interconnects, my Home Depot Speaker wire, and my factory supplied power cords. I think I've heard enough.

[okiemax]

I'm telling you what I,I,I, yes me, myself, EYE was thinking. I don't know what anybody else thought. I never have and I never will. Even if they tell me what they are thinking, I can never be sure. Until I saw them for myself, I thought they were huge horn speakers. If you want to know what RL was thinking, ask him yourself. Sheeesh.

Did I leave something out of the story? OK, here's the whole story;

I was born a long long time ago at a very early age........

Silly me. Do I ever feel dumb for thinking you were trying to reply to what I said in my post. Nevertheless, thanks for the clarification, and I do find your experience with the Philips demo interesting. Do you think that could happen to you with wine(being fooled by the wrong label)?

[skeptic]

I make no prejudgements about wine especially based on reputation of the producer or the vintage or the price. After reading a lot of reviews and tasting a fair amount of wine, I have discovered that wine is a crap shoot. At best under the right conditions, in the right mood, with the right food, wine can sometimes be a very pleasurable experience for me. But many times a particular wine is overhyped. And vastly overpriced. I listen to professional recommendations, try to select from only their best choices, and throw the dice. Many times it comes up snake-eyes. Disappointing to say the least. Fortunately, much of the wine I bought was purchased a long time ago at what seems today like giveaway prices. Frankly, because of the insanity of the wine market, the best advice anyone could get today is that if you aren't made out of money, don't get started. It's a financial bottomless pit and you are bidding against a world of millionaires, multi millionaires, and even billionaires for a limited supply of the finest wines.

[pctower]

Well if that doesn't prove that a lawyer can argue both sides of an arguement, I don't know what does. It seems to me it was just a few postings ago you were lauding the praises of Richard Greene as a fair open minded person willing to try out cables before making a judgement and being a nice fair all around guy. Now its insults. Love affair over so soon? Well, on the bright side, there's still Steve Eddy. I don't think he'll insult you. At least not here. He won't give this message board the time of day. Better try over at Cable Asylum, or should I say one of the other asylum boards since Der Furher threw him off CA for his blasphemy challenging the party line. Yavol.

Are you really as dense as you appear, or just plain dishonest? I praised Richard for being one of the few naysayer-types who had at least at one time actually listened to after-market cables. He and I have had an ongoing debate over Iraq for a year, which has nothing to do with whether he has ever even seen a cable.

I also question the assumptions he makes about people he labels as "golden ears". That has nothing to do with whether he himself has ever actually listened to an after-market cables (which is what I praised him for).

I know those distinctions and nuances are far beyond the capacity of a pinhead to grasp.

I'll tell you something else. To run a phrase into the ground: I know Richard Greene. Richard Greene is a friend of mine. And skeptic, you're no Richard Greene.

Richard has far more class and intellectually honesty in his right (sorry Richard - I guess I should make that your "left") pinky than you could even possibly grasp.

[E-Stat]

Therefore, it is an element whose ability to fulfill its function can be assessed by shunting it out.

While I agree to your earlier comments, "shunting out" a cable with a test load does not necessarily reflect the real world of dynamic signals getting passed through cables between devices presenting a complex and changing load to them in a field with varying levels of RFI. Works just fine if you enjoy watching test tones on a 'scope'.

rw

[skeptic]

I know Jon Risch. Jon Risch is a friend of mine. PC Tower, you're no Jon Risch.

Jon Risch knows more about audio equipment and audio cables in his little pinky then you will ever know.

[Richard Greene]

I was really PO'd when you called me a "refreshing exception", not that I know what that means. But "exception" didn't seem good.

The "all wires sound the same" claim reminds me of an old post where I tried out a $50 RCA CD player at home and found I could enjoy music when listening to such a cheap CD player (suggesting differences among CD players were not all that great). I hadn't mentioned it was a "remanufactured" CD player that normally sold for about $80 at the time ... but that didn't matter to Risch who blathered in response that one needed to spend at least $300 to get a decent CD player. Of course I went on the counterattack telling Risch he had just "evaluated" a CD player without ever hearing it based solely on the price and then came up with some arbitrary $300 limit as if he'd listened to every CD player under $300 and found all of them to be unsatisfactory. My point, and I do have one, is that conclusions that are not based on auditions are embarassing ... sometimes conclusions based on sighted auditions are embarassing too (deception tests) but at least one has heard a component before commenting on it.

In my opinion, some percentage of differences heard among wires, especially speaker wires, are due to thin wire / thick wire SPL differences and/or loose connections ... and some percentage of differences among speaker wires and interconnects are due to corrosion and/or oxidation on the terminations.

Add in the percentage of imagined differences among wires, and then subtract from
100%, and what's left are real, meaningful sound quality differences ... assuming we hadn't reached 0% after subtracting ... or became confused by all the math as I was ...
heh heh

I'm sure a speaker cable that drove an amplifier into oscillation when connecting a difficult load such as some planar speakers would be audible. Or at least mistaken for new electronic "music" one hears when walking past night clubs these days.

Politics:
Before you call me a "left pinky" please be aware that my last vote for a Dumbocrap president was George McGovern in 1972. You could just as well call me a "right pinky" as I voted for Reagan in 1980. That was my last vote for a Repooplican president.
Libertarian since then.

[skeptic]

"I'll tell you something else. To run a phrase into the ground: I know Richard Greene. Richard Greene is a friend of mine. And skeptic, you're no Richard Greene."

PC Tower, if that's what your friends have to say about you, I'd hate to run into your enemies.

[skeptic]

You don't shunt a cable with a test load, you shunt it with a shunt. This can be as simple as a switch. Shunting a cable just means bypassing it. It means that you test its audible character by alternately inserting it in the circuit and then bypassing it. If there is no audible change, then the wire is performing its function perfectly IN THAT SOUND SYSTEM only. It does not follow that the same wire would perform as well in other sound systems.

I have noticed that wire advocates always fall back on the arguement about rf noise when they are losing the arguement about tonal balance and accuracy. Why is that? This bogus arguement applies in only the rarest of cases and there is usually no claim for better shielding when audiophile wire is involved.

What do you mean by varying load? In a given sound system, the load on the circuit between the amplifier and the loudspeaker is the speaker. The load for a circuit where there is an interconnect is the next preamplifier stage or amplifier input stage. The load for the circuit using a power cord is the primary winding of the power transformer. It only varies when you change equipment it is connected to. As for being complex, sometimes it is as in the case of a loudspeaker, and sometimes it isn't as in the case of a preamplifier. BTW, complex in electrical terms means it has components along both the real and imaginary axes which are mathematical definitions of the phase angle between the current and voltage. Again so what?

Shunting audio cables to see what audible changes or contributions it makes in a sound system is by far the most logical way to evaluate them because it compares them to the ideal case, not to another imperfect wire. As I posted elsewhere, this demonstrates that accurate electrical performance is the sole logical criteria for evaluating cables, not personal preferences as it is ludicrous to try to correct the shortcomings of one audio component by selecting another with a complimentary shortcoming.

When you hear an audiophile cable you like and buy or borrow in a store in a sound system not identical to your own, what makes you conclude that it will perform as well at home in your own equipment? You said yourself that the load changes.

[E-Stat]

It means that you test its audible character by alternately inserting it in the circuit and then bypassing it.

Ah, doubling the cable. That will work in those situations that are not affected by capacitance or inductance as the case may be.

If there is no audible change, then the wire is performing its function perfectly IN THAT SOUND SYSTEM only.

I'm glad we agree on the role of the system environment.

have noticed that wire advocates always fall back on the arguement about rf noise when they are losing the arguement about tonal balance and accuracy.

Losing what argument? Tonal accuracy is the objective. Along with insuring that local RF does not mask musical detail.

What do you mean by varying load?

You later answered your own question.

When you hear an audiophile cable you like and buy or borrow in a store in a sound system not identical to your own, what makes you conclude that it will perform as well at home in your own equipment?

Nothing other than to narrow down the field of choices for in-system trials.

rw

[skeptic]

"Ah, doubling the cable. That will work in those situations that are not affected by capacitance or inductance as the case may be."

I'm not sure what you are saying here. It is prudent to make the shunt as short and perfect as possible. In the case of a speaker cable, I'd place the amplifier right next to the speaker, use a very short length of heavy gage wire, and devise a heavy duty relay to switch it with. In the case of interconects, the tape monitor switch will do just fine. The length and type of wire between the tape out and monitor input is very short and comparable to the input and outputs of the devices it will ultimately be connected to. In the case of a power cord, that can be done the same way as a speaker cable. However, you must know exactly what you are doing or you risk damaging your equipment and in the case of a power cord, you risk injury as well. I don't see where you double anything. Only the electrical properties of the shunt are in question and if you are skillful, that will be minimal. In addition, a duplicate shunt can be inserted in the test wire circuit so that it plays the same role in both the circuit with the test wire and the shunted circuit.

"Losing what argument? Tonal accuracy is the objective. Along with insuring that local RF does not mask musical detail."

Except for the time when I lived on the infield of WTFM 6 blocks from the transmitting tower where their RF came through channel 6 on my tv set, the high gain section of my preamp, and through the amalgam fillings in someone's teeth, I think I can count the number of times I've experienced rf noise as an issue in a sound system on the fingers of one hand.

"You later answered your own question."

Your previous statement implied that the load varies with the same equipment in the same sound system. I'm glad you agree with me on this point.

"Nothing other than to narrow down the field of choices for in-system trials."

How do you know that the cables you rejected in the store won't perform more accurately in your sound system? I don't see how you've narrowed down anything. And narrowed it down from what? A million choices out there? They come out with new versions faster than you can try the existing ones.

I would remind anyone reading this post that the issue we are discussing has to do with the best method for objectively testing cables. If what I have described seems too difficult or complicated for a project at home, I'd bet that for the overwhelming majority of audiophiles it is. However, for engineers and psychologists to set up equipment for such a test in a laboratory is another matter altogether.

[E-Stat]

In the case of interconects, the tape monitor switch will do just fine.

Except of course for either (a) you do not use a preamp or (b) the tape outputs are buffered as they are in better preamps.

How do you know that the cables you rejected in the store won't perform more accurately in your sound system?

I rely on the experience of trusted reviewers, audio designers, and audio shop owners who do use similar componentry to narrow the field from hundreds to a handful. As for me, I'm not on a quest to compare every single cable option available. I wish to find the best within reasonable time and expense parameters. Don't plan to change what I have anytime soon.

rw

[skeptic]

"Except of course for either (a) you do not use a preamp or (b) the tape outputs are buffered as they are in better preamps."

Agreed! In this case, you would have to build your own outboard shunt.

"I rely on the experience of trusted reviewers, audio designers, and audio shop owners who do use similar componentry to narrow the field from hundreds to a handful. As for me, I'm not on a quest to compare every single cable option available. I wish to find the best within reasonable time and expense parameters. Don't plan to change what I have anytime soon."

I rely on the advice I got from Belden....before they went into the consumer audiophile cable business. That's why I buy the wire I need at Home Depot and Radio Shack. I am hardly what you would call a trusting soul. I'm more of a.......skeptic.

[E-Stat]

I rely on the advice I got from Belden....before they went into the consumer audiophile cable business.

To each his own. Similarly, I more highly value the opinion of automotive journalists who have experienced the complex results of many automobile designs rather than say that of a shock or fuel pump engineer, much less one from any single company.

rw

[skeptic]

How do you know which one to trust? All I ever heard about Julian Hirsch, CBS Laboratories, and Audio Magazine was how they never met a component they didn't like. Compared to their elaborate lab setups and thorough careful measurements, what I saw in Stereophile Magazine was a joke. Most people don't put much credibility in what they read in the magazines or what the salespeople in the stores tell them (an obvious conflict of interest) until they hear something they like. That's why I would take advice from Belden's reps of 20 years ago over what they would tell me today.

As for Automotive testing, I stick with Consumer's Report. They not only tell you what's good, they tell you what's bad, something I never saw in magazines like Road and Track. They also have an extensive data base of user reliability complaints to make statistical observations about reliability on.

[E-Stat]

How do you know which one to trust?

Very good question. And my response is extremely biased. I have known both John Cooledge and Harry Pearson of The Absolute Sound for more than 25 years. JWC has been an active participant (singing bass) and board member of the Atlanta Symphony Chorus for as many years and has an enormous library of classical music. I thoroughly enjoyed a recent concert at the ASO of music from Lord of the Rings conducted by the composer, Howard Shore, and featuring both the symphony and the 200 voice ASO Chorus. The row "B" dynamics were incredible and the emotion of that music got to me. It was through his mentorship (while I was in my late teens/early twenties) that I now have a deep love for classical music. It was he who got me involved with the making of Telarc's recording of The Firebird back in '78. HP likewise shares a passion for the pursuit of musical recording excellence. As a Long Island resident, he has spent considerable time at Carnegie Hall and elsewhere. Long before I could fully appreciate the finer nuances of recordings, I have been exposed to Harry's incredible reviewer's systems. Quite frankly, I could never fully appreciate what I first heard in his system back in '80 when I was 23. It took me twenty years to fully comprehend his notion that tube amplifiers render a closer truth to live music in the critical midrange than do the very best solid state amplifiers. He has access to virtually all of the pretenders to the throne, both SS and tube alike. I now agree based upon listening to his spectacular system using a wide variety of state-of-the-art amplfiers. I will admit though, that the Edge Signature Monoblocks come close and do have a most silkly high end. I partook of his latest system just two months ago and remain awestruck at what is possible with the the best recordings.

As for Automotive testing, I stick with Consumer's Report. They not only tell you what's good, they tell you what's bad, something I never saw in magazines like Road and Track. They also have an extensive data base of user reliability complaints to make statistical observations about reliability on.

I will both agree and disagree. Indeed CU has a comprehensive database of reliability statistics. It supports my passion for Honda brand vehicles, two and four wheel alike. You will find far more "red" in their evaluations than "black" over most companies. I continue to admire the legacy of Soichiro Honda and own three of his products. On the other hand, their evaluations of performance metrics such as handling leave much to be desired. You will never find them driving a Ferrari Enzo or a Porsche Carrera GT. Such vehicles and levels of performance envelope are completely beyond their experience. Which is fine. I rather prefer Automobile and Car and Driver magazine to provide the greatest insight to vehicle performance. They are not at all shy as to calling as they see it. Just like TAS.

rw

[skeptic]

"Very good question. And my response is extremely biased. I have known both John Cooledge and Harry Pearson of The Absolute Sound for more than 25 years."

Lucky You!

[E-Stat]

Lucky You!

Indeed !

Now all I need to do is befriend a car reviewer where I might have access to drive the automotive equivalents: Enzos, Bugattis, Murcielagos, Volantes, Carreras, McLarens, etc.

rw

[mtrycraft]

To each his own. Similarly, I more highly value the opinion of automotive journalists who have experienced the complex results of many automobile designs rather than say that of a shock or fuel pump engineer, much less one from any single company.

rw

I keep forgetting, cables are in the same category as cars. No wonder you treat them as such.

[Resident Loser]

...particularly in this venue, is as good a word as any, I suppose...the Philips show certainly gave me a sense of expectation...big speaker as I recall...the sound produced certainly seemed comensurate with the enclosures' size...bamboozled, snookered, misled, given to a preconcieved notion...what ever you call it...when the lighting changed so that the grille-cloth was revealed to be a scrim, I am of the opinion that most, if not all in the room, were taken aback at being "taken"...The sheer "volume" of clean sound being produced by what was revealed to be in fact such a diminuitive speaker, caused more than just a few very vocal comments, from simple "Wha?"s to "Hot d@mn!"...all registered in a tone indicative of disbelief...

jimHJJ(...take it FWIW, if nothing else, we were all fooled...everyone certainly seemed to expect "big" sound...a very effective presentation...)

You must have left something out of the story. Otherwise, it seems like you are suggesting Phillips' disguise biased everyone who walked into the room. But how could you know what everyone there was thinking?