High dollar speaker cables and speaker crossovers

[E-Stat]

...you have something other than anecdotal speculation to support this?

Nope. Just the shared experience of a cast of thousands.

I seem to remember...etc, etc...Of course, the preceeding gibberish has come from the mind of one who may not be in full control of his faculties, so take it or leave it as you choose...

Ok.

You have taken the cited quote completely out of context.

I merely pointed out other audible manifestations that "can" occur with wire in an audio context based upon my experience (and that of others). Yes, Virginia one can find bright sounding interconnects and speaker wires whether by commission or lack of prevention. I have some.

rw

[Swerd]

I have noticed that speaker makers rarely, if ever, use high dollar speaker wire inside the speaker (perhaps I am wrong on that). Let alone the crossovers, that can be quite diverse in parts and design. How do the yeah sayers explain spending a lot of money on speaker cables when all of that signal has to go through the inner works of the speaker before you hear the sound anyway? I am on the fense on this one and would like to see the responses.

The original post contained some answerable questions, that have not yet been addressed here.

Why don't speaker makers use low gauge or other higher priced types of wire inside the cabinets? Does it make sense to use thick gauge wire from the amplifier to the speaker terminals if there is only 18 gauge zipcord on the inside?

One answer is quite simple. It is very awkward to solder thick wires from the terminals of individual drivers to the much thinner connection points on the crossover. Heating such wires with a typical 30 watt hand held soldering iron would take a long time, and the required heat could damage a crossover component such as a capacitor. Thin wires, 16 gauge or smaller, are easily and rapidly soldered.

A second answer is that short lengths (1 to 2 feet) of low gauge or other high priced wire make little difference compared to the overall conductivity of the total length of wire between the amplifier and the individual drivers of the speaker. Note that I say nothing about possible performance differences due to these short lengths of wire. There simply is no evidence for or against this. At the same time, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that varying crossover designs have a great effect on speaker performance. DIY speaker builders have experimented with substituting low and high priced capacitors, inductors, and resistors and have found that high priced capacitors, and thick gauge inductors do not add to the performance of a speaker. No evidence or reports exist about substituting the wires inside a speaker cabinet. I'd be quite surprised if it were shown that they did make a difference.

The third answer is cost. Why should commercial speaker makers spend extra money on short lengths of expensive wire that will never be visible on the finished product?

[Florian]

To Swerd: You make some great points, thanks for sharing. In my opinion it is most likely the cost and the fact that the normal customer doesnt open up their speakers. It depends on the price range and product, the real statment products dont skimp on anything usally and i think that it is only audible on a reference product.

Here are some things i can demonstrate in my home in a blind test and hear on my reference speakers and something E-Stat will hear on his SL's too.

1. Moving the DAC from a stone to wood base
2. Change in speaker cables
3. Change in interconnects
4. Change of 5cm's on speaker position
5. Change of Dacs, Transports Preamps etc....

If you cant hear these changes on your system then its not capable of showing the difference. Period :-)

[Bernd]

I agree with that. I also know that one needs to experience the workings of a well thought out High End system to appreciate the differences small changes will make.
And it's not only the expensive stuff. A well thought out system of any kind should show changes in cables,placement, etc.
Everything you add,change or subtract will make a difference to the end result.If it doesn't then the system is not of good enough quality.

Bernd

[Resident Loser]

Here are some things i can demonstrate in my home in a blind test and hear on my reference speakers and something E-Stat will hear on his SL's too.

1. Moving the DAC from a stone to wood base
2. Change in speaker cables
3. Change in interconnects
4. Change of 5cm's on speaker position
5. Change of Dacs, Transports Preamps etc....

If you cant hear these changes on your system then its not capable of showing the difference. Period :-)

...haven't chortled so robustly in quite some time, snicker, snicker...cough, cough...

#1. So moving a purely electronic component to and from surfaces of varying density affects things sonically? That's a good one boss! In the sandbag/wire elevator school of tweak-dom...along with eutectic solders, directional wire and $485USD, audiophile grade, wooden control knobs. Snort...chuckle, assorted noises of bodily functions....

#s 2&3. Has anyone said wires cannot sound different?...It's a question of accuracy, not simply difference and certainly not personal preferences.

#4. Speaker positioning changes the sound?!?! Zut alors!!! Tell us again how sheep's bladders may be used to predict earthquakes?...The absolute cheapest, cheezzy-est, bottom-of-the-barrel, entry level POS will sound different with even the smallest re-positioning...why not tell us something we all don't already know.

#5. Different manufacturers have different sonic signatures?...another "DUH!" moment...Why else would there be so bloody many of them? If they all sounded the same how could any one of the claim to be whatever they claim to be...again, it's accuracy not pref...some sound "warm"...some sound "cold"...but some sound "just right"...in your room...with your gear...with your source material...and, of course, some look cool, some use warm, glowing tubes(valves), some have a more pricier snob-appeal and commensurate bragging rights...

jimHJJ(...I must rest now, my sides ache...)

[Florian]

Hey Looser, it doesnt suprise me ONE bit you cant hear the differences in cables, amps or even dacs.

If i was forced to listen with this

Currently using: Onkyo MC35 TECH Marantz SD-4050 TEAC A-3440 Sennhieser HD-414 STAX SR-44 Reference system: Other vintage analog components

i wouldnt hear **** for difference either.

Peace out

[Resident Loser]

Hey Looser, it doesnt suprise me ONE bit you cant hear the differences in cables, amps or even dacs.

If i was forced to listen with this i wouldnt hear **** for difference either.

Peace out

...When did I say that? The underlined part that is, just in case you don't understand...and I have no reason to assume you do...

And even though it did all it was required to do('ceptin, of course the bottom octave or so), I traded all that good stuff for mtry's boom-box when he left the site...but I got the speakers wired up with pure 99.97 Peruvian silver, Teflon-coated, directional wire...the mid-range simply blooms...

jimHJJ(...or was it booms?...)

[musicoverall]

[QUOTE=Resident Loser
It's a question of accuracy, not simply difference and certainly not personal preferences.
)[/QUOTE]

*What* is a question of accuracy? How do you define accuracy with respect to cables? If two cables measure the same and sound different, which one is accurate? Actually, the last two questions go for electronics and CDP's as well.

[Resident Loser]

...*what* is a question of accuracy? How do you define accuracy with respect to cables? If two cables measure the same and sound different, which one is accurate? Actually, the last two questions go for electronics and CDP's as well.

...the entire thread? I'm sorry, I believe your point is moot in the context of the conceptual continuity of the whole...

Why not ask Florian? He has initially stated:

...Why should i run cheap cables that carry less information...

And then simply falls back on demonstrable differences with this:

...some things i can demonstrate in my home...

jimHJJ(...I fail to see what one has to do with the other...)

[FLZapped]

I have noticed that speaker makers rarely, if ever, use high dollar speaker wire inside the speaker (perhaps I am wrong on that). Let alone the crossovers, that can be quite diverse in parts and design. How do the yeah sayers explain spending a lot of money on speaker cables when all of that signal has to go through the inner works of the speaker before you hear the sound anyway? I am on the fense on this one and would like to see the responses.

Usually they come up with non-measurable parameters that no one can define in an objective way and exclaim how much difference these flights of fantasy make. Things like speed, pace, etc....

-Bruce

[FLZapped]

While i would agree with that in general, let me ask you a back question. Why should i run cheap cables that carry less information to even worse parts that will loose even more information?

Would define exactly what you mean by lost information?

On my personal external crossover the parts used were very good and very solid with great connections. Kharma, Genesis, Martin Logan, Apogee, Audionote, or my Sphinx Gear use pure silver inside or other high quality parts. So i do think that most high class audio company/products use great parts.

What makes a high quality part, high quality and why? And what defines a "great connection"?

-Bruce

[Resident Loser]

...define exactly what you mean by lost information?

...no reason to "attack" the poor lad, is there? I mean that's what he told markw I did to him by asking much the same question...

jimHJJ(...or was it simply some variant of "shoot the messenger"?...I don't think he likes me much...get in line...)

[Florian]

Would define exactly what you mean by lost information?




What makes a high quality part, high quality and why? And what defines a "great connection"?

-Bruce

It is difficult to explain, it has to be experienced. I'll give you an example.
This is the midrange section of my DIVA



As you can see it has two switches and the caps are connected on a soldering bar. All cables used are thick heavy gauge silver monster cable that they made form their reference m1000 back in the day. The signal has to travel over two switches, thick coils and many caps. I have rebuidl my crossovers and junked the two switches and cut many shrtcuts which means that the signal has to travel past less parts and has a direct and solid connection.

The results is that the speaker is much more transparent (i had two people put their ear to the membrane and you cant tell its playing) with much improved texture and shimmering of instruments. The layering got much more precise and on you can hear the dead space between instruments much cleaner now.

Ofcourse this is a speaker that cost over 30K 15 years ago and the follow up model is over a 100K so far and defines the state of the art along with a few exeptions like the IRS-V, Gen 1.1, ML Statement, Martin Odeon Organ, Perigee Definitve etc...

How to define a high quality part? Well you can define it by echnical terms, but then again this would be like looser and serve absolutly noone. Get your girldfriend or someone to play a viloin or a instrument in your room and record it. Then play it back on your system, if you cant tell the difference between the recording and the live act your there. For me, i am 92% of the way there and it defines the state of the art. Exchange parts and if one cap takes you closer then it matches better to your system and you found your next path.

Simple :-)

[bacchanal]

omg...step away from the internet people

put the mouse down and go listen to some tunes

[musicoverall]

[QUOTE=Resident Loser

Why not ask Florian?

[/QUOTE]

Well, because you broached the subject of accuracy and I don't recall him doing so. How do you determine what is accurate? And what happens when those nasty manufacturers makes something that measures the same as something else but sounds different? Are they accurate in different ways?

[Resident Loser]

Why not ask Florian?

Well, because you broached the subject of accuracy and I don't recall him doing so. How do you determine what is accurate? And what happens when those nasty manufacturers makes something that measures the same as something else but sounds different? Are they accurate in different ways?

...but if Forian's statement, or rather question, of "...Why should i run cheap cables that carry less information..." doesn't broach the subject of accuracy I can't imagine what does.

I read his words as some cables are inherently inaccurate simply due to their pedigree...this is not opinion it is a further factoid by Flo...

I questioned it...markw questioned it...and FLZ did likewise...others should also.

Do we really need to go into the "catch-22" of accuracy? How most recordings are recorded, mixed and mastered on 2-way speaker systems with conventional drivers...using generic Belden wire over sometimes huge distances(wire-wise)...how they are produced to sound reasonably decent on a panoply of typical home gear...Are there exceptions? Audiophile pressings and the like? Of what percentage of market share do they represent?

Accuracy? What did it sound like as a master? What does it sound like at home? That comparison should be the sole measure of accuracy...not whether it sounds warm...or if the mids bloom...or any other subjective jargonistic audiopile twaddle...straight wire with gain...

jimHJJ(...so like i said, go ask Florian, he's the one who started it...)

[FLZapped]

As you can see it has two switches and the caps are connected on a soldering bar. All cables used are thick heavy gauge silver monster cable that they made form their reference m1000 back in the day. The signal has to travel over two switches, thick coils and many caps. I have rebuidl my crossovers and junked the two switches and cut many shrtcuts which means that the signal has to travel past less parts and has a direct and solid connection.

Okay, so you made changes, that's fine - but what kind of measurable difference can you point to? Is there a possibility that the engineers who designed the crossover took into account the effect of the switches and you've actually made the design worse?

The results is that the speaker is much more transparent (i had two people put their ear to the membrane and you cant tell its playing) with much improved texture and shimmering of instruments. The layering got much more precise and on you can hear the dead space between instruments much cleaner now.

May I assume this is just your opinion, that you don't have any other data to support your belief that you've somehow made an audible improvement to the design?

How to define a high quality part? Well you can define it by echnical terms, but then again this would be like looser and serve absolutly noone. Get your girldfriend or someone to play a viloin or a instrument in your room and record it. Then play it back on your system, if you cant tell the difference between the recording and the live act your there. For me, i am 92% of the way there and it defines the state of the art. Exchange parts and if one cap takes you closer then it matches better to your system and you found your next path.

Simple :-)

How do you know you are 92% of the way there? How do expect something recorded in one acoustic placement to sound the same in a different acoustic placement, unless that room is completely anechoic???

-Bruce

[Resident Loser]

It is difficult to explain, it has to be experienced. I'll give you an example.
This is the midrange section of my DIVA...

...in any way supports your definition of "high quality parts"?

Eliminating some switches and a few inches of wire is a friggin' tweak, which you claim enhances your listening experience...how pleasant for you...unfortunately it proves absolutely nothing...zero, nada, zippppp...

And we won't even go into the standard golden-eared mantra of "it's difficult to explain"...the all-purpose, back-to-the-wall cop-out...

Well you can define it by (t)echnical terms, but then again this would be like looser and serve absolutly noone...

My apologies to T T...I had to temporarily take one of his "t"s to add to the above quote...

How about mil-spec or better? A part with a tolerance of +/-1% instead of +/- 10%? Made in a factory with strict quality controls (and I don't mean that Euro-centric ISO cr@p)...Something that could stand up to real-world conditions and have a long service life? Maybe that's a start...yeah, I know..."but is it musical?"...

jimHJJ(...no, it's a bloody resistor...)

[Florian]

Hey Looser, do it the easy way. Visit me and bring your cheap cables and equipment over and will do a comparison. Will change, absorbtion, vibration control, cables, power cords etc...

Take the challange or stop your nonesene. Its really sad that you cant hear the difference and its even more sad that you have to make pointless arguments on a sound you have never even experienced.

PS: On a side note, most of my recordings and the best recordings in the industry use ribbon microphones, tube microphones and analog playback systems. Many panel speakers and electrostatics are used in recording studios. Many Apogee Stage systems where sold for monitoring, acoustats come from Pro PA systems....

The only typical bull**** 2 way mini monitors are used for the crap commerical recordings that only sound good on systems like your which are unable to retrieve and display all the information in the firts place.

[Florian]

1. How do you meausre transparency?
2. How do you meausre transiants?
3. How do you measure tonal color?
4. How do you meausre soft or hard sound?
5. How do you measure details?

The fact is there are MANY things that are not measurebale but they still exist.

Can you measure GOD? I thought not, therefore he cant exist. Can you measure love? I thought not, so it doesnt exist. How do you know your systems is designed correctly? You cant so any change you make can have a good or negative effect!

Its idiotic to take only measurements, why dont you guys build a dead chamber (that studios DO NOT USE) and buy a two way mini monitor which is not used by all recordings and cant play the full musical range in the first place and leave real audiophiles alone.

[theaudiohobby]

How about mil-spec or better? A part with a tolerance of +/-1% instead of +/- 10%? Made in a factory with strict quality controls (and I don't mean that Euro-centric ISO cr@p)...Something that could stand up to real-world conditions and have a long service life? Maybe that's a start...yeah, I know..."but is it musical?"...

jimHJJ(...no, it's a bloody resistor...)

You have hinted at how quality electronic parts can properly evaluated, tolerance ratings are boldly printed on passive electronic parts such as resistors and capacitors, parts with stricter tolerances limits should be better, tighter tolerances for the circuit etc.., though like true end-user consumers, many audiophiles simply buy their parts by brand name, witness Florian, scarely ever discussing such trivialities such as tolerances , For many of them if it is much more expensive then it has to be better .

TAH(...just my thoughts...)

[Resident Loser]

....FLZ touched on a most salient point re: Florian's tweak cum proof...

When these things(amps, speakers) are designed, there is an end in sight...Take a look in either unit a see what sort of wire is or isn't inside...Chances are that the wires from the amp's output section to the BPs aren't anywhere near the gauge used to then feed that output to your speaks. Do you think that may have been taken into account by the designer? Likewise with the loudspeakers...perhaps taking out the already-compensated-for parts isn't quite what the designer planned...perhaps parts with a lower tolerance were figured into the equation allowing for a wider interface latitude. Again, personal preference vs. the designers view of accuracy.

If known testable measurement parameters are produced at an amp's output, the goal of any wire is to have those same results reproduced at the speaker end...no additions or subtractions, not warm, not cold...dead neutral...it's a simple transfer function, a numbers game... X amount in for X amount out...anything else and your fi ain't hi...you may like it better, but that's personal preference.

Then of course we have the "what if" the numbers are the same but the wires sound different...well, that's where the verboten acronym comes into play...

jimHJJ(...but let's not go there...)

[Florian]

For many of them if it is much more expensive then it has to be better

Considering that comment shows that you dont know anything about me, or my systems or the prices. For people like you its that all equipment you cant afford is nonesense.

[ruadmaa]

1. How do you meausre transparency?
2. How do you meausre transiants?
3. How do you measure tonal color?
4. How do you meausre soft or hard sound?
5. How do you measure details?

The fact is there are MANY things that are not measurebale but they still exist.

Can you measure GOD? I thought not, therefore he cant exist. Can you measure love? I thought not, so it doesnt exist. How do you know your systems is designed correctly? You cant so any change you make can have a good or negative effect!

Its idiotic to take only measurements, why dont you guys build a dead chamber (that studios DO NOT USE) and buy a two way mini monitor which is not used by all recordings and cant play the full musical range in the first place and leave real audiophiles alone.

Florian, anything electrical can be measured and measured quite exactly. All of your audio equipment is electrical and therefore it can be measured quite exactly. It can be measured far beyond the capabilities of your hearing and then some. Resident loser’s points are all valid, yours are not.

[theaudiohobby]

Considering that comment shows that you dont know anything about me, or my systems or the prices. For people like you its that all equipment you cant afford is nonesense.

Well I do know about you, through your posts. As for your last statement it is simply idiotic and be warned if you go down route that you took in the Preamp/Amp thread, I am well and able to cuss you as much as I like.