High dollar speaker cables and speaker crossovers

[Resident Loser]

...jumping butterballs...did you read the AEH?...the Audiopile Excuses Handbook...

What a crock...we had a regular poster here some time ago that was into the same ol' same ol' as you...sandwiched plinths to support his gear...fine, hand crafted bubingawood AC outlets filled with proprietary "stardust"...special order, limited run tubes for his amp...oh, yeah the amp...a near-custom 8Watt SET job...wanted the builder to incorporate some "special" parts and wiring in lieu of the normally provided stuff...after some negotiations, the reluctant builder agreed to do so...

The customer sent off the parts with specific instructions re: the "directional" lengths of single-crystal, 99.999% pure oxygen-free, transported-in-pima-cotton-cloth-lined-palm-frond-baskets-by-Peruvian-virgins-copper wiring that were to be used for certain aspects of the circuit wiring.

The amp was delivered...the poster was satisfied... until...da-dum(insert Bach's "Toccata and Fugue" here) curiosity got the better of him.
Upon opening up the amp he found to his utter dismay, amazement and consternation, the directional wire was going in the wrong direction...well...things were not all skittles and beer to say the least.

Without going into the contractual obligation the builder had to follow the customer's requirements, end of story is: builder refused to effect "repairs" saying it made no difference...customer goes to someone else to have the wiring reversed, paying for the privilege and to the best of my knowledge still hasn't a clue as to whether or not it did make any difference...but the wiring is reversed and he's is happy.

There was also a fellow who claimed to hear the effects the color of the wires insulation had on it's sound...some of you know of whom I speak.

jimHJJ(...all in all, a very entertaining place this can be...)

[musicoverall]

[QUOTE=Resident Loser
Do we really need to go into the "catch-22" of accuracy? How most recordings are recorded, mixed and mastered on 2-way speaker systems with conventional drivers...using generic Belden wire over sometimes huge distances(wire-wise)...how they are produced to sound reasonably decent on a panoply of typical home gear...Are there exceptions? Audiophile pressings and the like? Of what percentage of market share do they represent?

Accuracy? What did it sound like as a master? What does it sound like at home? That comparison should be the sole measure of accuracy...not whether it sounds warm...or if the mids bloom...or any other subjective jargonistic audiopile twaddle...straight wire with gain...

jimHJJ(...so like i said, go ask Florian, he's the one who started it...)[/QUOTE]

No, we don't need to get into the accuracy thing. It's a waste of time, which was my point. We can measure the accuracy of the recording by measuring it against the master tape, if we are lucky enough to have that opportunity. Otherwise, we won't know if the recording sounds warm with bloomed mids (have to admit I'm not sure what bloomed mids sound like) or if it's our system. Chasing accuracy is like chasing lottery winnings... if we hit it, it's more due to luck than anything. Unlike the lottery, we're likely never to know if we've achieved accuracy.

[musicoverall]

Florian, anything electrical can be measured and measured quite exactly. All of your audio equipment is electrical and therefore it can be measured quite exactly. It can be measured far beyond the capabilities of your hearing and then some. Resident loser’s points are all valid, yours are not.

Can you point me to a reference work - or several, if need be - that can tell me how transient attack and decay, detail, soundstaging width/height/depth and imaging are measured as they come from electrical components? Much appreciated.

[Resident Loser]

We can measure the accuracy of the recording by measuring it against the master tape, if we are lucky enough to have that opportunity

...some of us have...some have even had the opportunity to compare and evaluate the performance itself to the end product and then experience playback on some of the same equipment used in producing it. Of course, it's all anecdotal...story vs. story...I can say however, it doesn't require a fortune or an endless quest to reach an exceptional level of similarity on nearly any decent rig.

jimHJJ(...it's a lot easier than some would have us believe...)

[ruadmaa]

Can you point me to a reference work - or several, if need be - that can tell me how transient attack and decay, detail, soundstaging width/height/depth and imaging are measured as they come from electrical components? Much appreciated.

If you can hear it, it can be measured, period. Nothing etherial about it. I'm sure there are many recording engineers that can give you all the measurements you require. I am not about to search the universe for your answers. Do your own homework.

[Resident Loser]

Can you point me to a reference work - or several, if need be - that can tell me how transient attack and decay, detail, soundstaging width/height/depth and imaging are measured as they come from electrical components? Much appreciated.

...at least in simple layman's terms, I believe most of it pertains to psychoacoustics...however, a signal's attack and decay should be easily seen on an Oscope or RTA, but that's not really what you want...If all or any of these parameters exist in the source material any decent set-up should be able to reproduce them...Whether or not you like the depth or width or the snap or the whatever is more a product of the amplifiers abilities to respond to what is presented by that source material and the loudspeaker's (along with the environment they're in) ability to translate it into a viable, realistic presentation...wires is wires...if they(the wires) somehow truncate or otherwise affect the frequency response or create delay lines altering those perceptions, something would seem to be amiss.

You would be better of speaking to jneutron when it comes to that sort of thing...he's a numbers kinda' guy.

jimHJJ(...at least that's by best guess...)

[musicoverall]

If you can hear it, it can be measured, period. Nothing etherial about it. I'm sure there are many recording engineers that can give you all the measurements you require. I am not about to search the universe for your answers. Do your own homework.

I don't really require any answers, I was just curious if you knew them since you took the time to tell Florian his comments were without merit. Your answer doesn't disappoint because it's essentially the same one I read whenever measurement freaks are asked to put their beloved measurements into some useful context with respect to the actual listening experience.

[musicoverall]

...at least in simple layman's terms, I believe most of it pertains to psychoacoustics...however, a signal's attack and decay should be easily seen on an Oscope or RTA, but that's not really what you want...If all or any of these parameters exist in the source material any decent set-up should be able to reproduce them...Whether or not you like the depth or width or the snap or the whatever is more a product of the amplifiers abilities to respond to what is presented by that source material and the loudspeaker's (along with the environment they're in) ability to translate it into a viable, realistic presentation...wires is wires...if they(the wires) somehow truncate or otherwise affect the frequency response or create delay lines altering those perceptions, something would seem to be amiss.

You would be better of speaking to jneutron when it comes to that sort of thing...he's a numbers kinda' guy.

jimHJJ(...at least that's by best guess...)

Your post makes perfect sense to me on a theoretical level but doesn't seem to hold up on an experiential level. I've found that particularly soundstaging and imaging to be very "wire specific", not to mention specific to different electronics, etc. Maybe it's (with respect to wire) that the common zip cord is altering the sound in a non-"accurate" way, in which case something would indeed be as amiss as it sounds in my listening room. Ok, markw, if you're reading this, it isn't THAT far amiss!

I could ask jneutron - good advice - but I don't know if he could answer. Of course I was baiting Ruadmaa and he responded in kind. My point was that I don't think these things ARE being measured... but I do think they CAN be. In fact, I believe as Ruadmaa does - that everything can be measured. I just don't think we know how.

Or maybe it IS all about psycho-acoustics....

[jtgofish]

Resident Loser,I have to agree -most cables are just tone adjusters but many also lack coherence and timing-most multi stands for instance just sound wrong once you have heard even quite cheap solid core-and this must be to do with electron transfer differences between the two types.Of course to really hear this the internal wiring of your speakers should also be solid core and most aren't.Multi strand is used because it is less prone to break and easier to teminate-but it sounds like crap.

[Bernd]

If you can hear it, it can be measured, period. Nothing etherial about it. I'm sure there are many recording engineers that can give you all the measurements you require. I am not about to search the universe for your answers. Do your own homework.

I agree completely-If you can hear it you can measure it. Great. Now for the crux. How do you measure what you feel? Love,Faith and Emotion.
Not everything can be measured.

Peace

Bernd

[ruadmaa]

I agree completely-If you can hear it you can measure it. Great. Now for the crux. How do you measure what you feel? Love,Faith and Emotion.
Not everything can be measured.

Peace

Bernd

What in the world does your post have to do with Audio??? No, not everything can be measured, but audio certainly can.

[Bernd]

What in the world does your post have to do with Audio??? No, not everything can be measured, but audio certainly can.

There is no response to this.You trust your measurements I and many others will trust our ears.

Have fun

Bernd

[bacchanal]

Trusting your ears can work on a personal level, certainly for picking out gear, but it doesn't really prove anything one way or another. At the very least, it certainly begs questions about auditory memory and perception. Not a whole lot is known about musical auditory memory. For how long and how accurately can pitches and tones be remembered? I don't believe there is a conclusive answer to this question, but there is evidence to suggest that musical information is processed differently for left and right handers, males and females, musicians and non-musicians.

Trust your ears, sure, but don't trust someone else's.

[FLZapped]

Trusting your ears can work on a personal level, certainly for picking out gear, but it doesn't really prove anything one way or another. At the very least, it certainly begs questions about auditory memory and perception. Not a whole lot is known about musical auditory memory. For how long and how accurately can pitches and tones be remembered? I don't believe there is a conclusive answer to this question, but there is evidence to suggest that musical information is processed differently for left and right handers, males and females, musicians and non-musicians.

Trust your ears, sure, but don't trust someone else's.

Actually, a lot is known about auditory memory and it is very, very short. The problem has never been with the ear, it's all in the brain and how you percieve what you're hearing.

-Bruce

[FLZapped]

1. How do you meausre transparency?
2. How do you meausre transiants?
3. How do you measure tonal color?
4. How do you meausre soft or hard sound?
5. How do you measure details?

Transparency? hmmm...a couple ways, how about intermodulation distortion for one.
Transients are easy too, there are several ways of doing this, including broadband waterfall plots.
Tonal color/hard sound could both be frequency respaonse, although a hard sound might be due to high order harmonic distortion.
Details. With the devil, of course.

-Bruce

[Bernd]

Trusting your ears can work on a personal level, certainly for picking out gear, but it doesn't really prove anything one way or another. At the very least, it certainly begs questions about auditory memory and perception. Not a whole lot is known about musical auditory memory. For how long and how accurately can pitches and tones be remembered? I don't believe there is a conclusive answer to this question, but there is evidence to suggest that musical information is processed differently for left and right handers, males and females, musicians and non-musicians.

Trust your ears, sure, but don't trust someone else's.

Well put. What I was talking about is when you get goosebumps and the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. You can not measure for that. Most of the time tube gear measures not very well, but sounds to my ears superior to SS or Digital. As does Vinyl to CD. And yes you can get that from resonable priced gear and you can miss it completely with expensive stuff. When something gels it gets you that feeling and you want more of it.
I don't care about measurements and graphs at all. All my system has been bought purely through auditioning and by listening. Much to often equipment is sold (and bought by gullable punters) through marketing and the latest 5 star award. I have never cared what somebody else hears. What matters to me is what I hear and feel. Also I can only ever talk about something I have experienced. Much too often I read posts where it is blatantly obvious that the contributer has no personal knowledge at all. Just because it is displayed here does not make it gospel. As you said-"Trust your ears,but not someone else's".

Bernd

[Curmudgeon]

Going back to the original post, if a speaker system is poorly designed or built, no, I wouldn't expect expensive speaker cables to be of much benefit. Nor would I expect the drivers to be that good either.

I know for a fact that some expensive, highly regarded speakers do indeed care a great deal about the internal wiring and crossover component quality.

One of the many sweeping assertions made above is that DIYers have tried heavy wire coils and different capacitors and found no difference. I'm sure some have, but the implication that this holds for all DIYers is simply not so. As a DIYer I've recently found that some capacitors are preferable to others, as are some coils. And some wire. The last time I looked into this, about 12-15 years ago, using drivers that were very good at the time, and fair associated equipment, concrete resistors, Solen capacitors and just plain coils sounded fine; the Solens sounded better than mylars,, but that was about it. Recently, with very good associated equipment and excellent drivers, the Solens and the concrete resistors simply don't cut it.

Genes differ, training/experience differs, associated equipment differs, source quality differs. This all reminds me of the great Doppler Distortion Debates. Undeniably it existed, but it was proven time and again that the effect was too small to hear. It was not taken into account that Paul Klipsch had worked on developing early (very early) tape equipment, and had learned to hear flutter, and thus could hear doppler distortion which almost all could not, or at least not explicitly.

It's kind of sad that the same inflexibility, sweeping generalizations based on inadequate foundations, and rudeness keep appearing over and over again. Just as they did in the pentode vs. triode wars, the solid state vs. tube wars, and the cd vs. vinyl wars. In each of those cases, most of the rigidity softened, as causes for the discrepancies were slowly and painfully sorted out. Nowadays capacitors are well along in the transition, with more measured distortion and discovery of construction issues continuing the Jung/Marsh investigations. In the cases where there were strong, widespread, continuing assertions about sound quality, eventually the science caught up to the art. In those cases, the subjectivists have an excellent track record in eventually being shown to have a case.

[FLZapped]

Solen capacitors and just plain coils sounded fine; the Solens sounded better than mylars,, but that was about it.

Uhm, a mylar capacitor is a type of capacitor, Solen is a manufacturer, so what are you trying to compare???


-Bruce

[FLZapped]

Well put. What I was talking about is when you get goosebumps and the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. You can not measure for that.

Wonderful, but how much of that is due to the gear, how much is due to the acoutsic environment, and how much is due to the source materal? They all contribute to various extents.

I don't care about measurements and graphs at all. All my system has been bought purely through auditioning and by listening. Much to often equipment is sold (and bought by gullable punters) through marketing and the latest 5 star award. I have never cared what somebody else hears. What matters to me is what I hear and feel. Also I can only ever talk about something I have experienced. Much too often I read posts where it is blatantly obvious that the contributer has no personal knowledge at all. Just because it is displayed here does not make it gospel. As you said-"Trust your ears,but not someone else's".

Bernd

Do you realize that you are contradicting yourself? While you have assembled your own system based on your own experiences, you are also agreeing that you cannot have someone else "listen" for you and that you don't care what someone else hears. So what difference does it make if someone has "experience" or not?

The other problem is, many plop out thier listening "experience" as though it is fact and that won't hold water anywhere, when you need an objective point of view. So you're left with measurements (Which are a repeatable and reliable source) as a grounds for beginning your search. Of course, when it comes to cables, you'll virtually never find that.

BTW - Don't you find it interesting, that tube amps measure poorly yet "sound" good make a statement about the psychology of hearing vs the pursuit of some mythically superior equipment?

-Bruce

[Resident Loser]

I've found that particularly soundstaging and imaging to be very "wire specific"...

...somewhere in the deep, dark, past...I recall an album (that's what we used to call them) which may have been Dave Mason's "Alone Together"...notable mostly for it's packaging and the marbled, multi-hued vinyl it was pressed on...not that the content was shabby mind you. I say may have, because thirty-six years is long ago and far away, and much was listened to through a smokey haze, but be that as it may, there was one track on the album that, according to the liner notes, was not compatable with monophonic playback. It certainly wasn't, smoke notwithstanding.

The inclusion of out-of-phase information on this track, expanded the apparent sounstage dramatically, extending it well beyond the loudspeaker's normal dispersion pattern. In mono, lotsa' stuff was cancelled out so it didn't sound too good at all.

Do some aftermarket wires futz with phase relationships? Given the fact that plain ol' vanilla wiring is older than the hobby, I'm comfortable with the contention that wire is wire and anything that skews the final product in some manner, while pleasing to the individual taste of the listener, isn't the highest of fi.

Another thing to consider is bandwidth...high-order harmonics may or may not play a part in the perception of air and space and...???

After playing around with some small 2-way loudspeakers, I have found enclosure positioning AND little bits of strategically-placed felt and other sound absorbing materials to provide what I consider dramatic changes, not only to the apparent bass output, but also into what is termed depth and soundstage. Using smaller systems as nearfield radiators simplifies things to a great degree, as the smaller environment tends to eliminate certain room-sized/distance problems from the equation.

One thing I have difficulty accepting, is that by most accounts some seemingly unrelated sonic changes can ocurr as though the upscale wiring seems to have the uncanny ability to pick and choose the parts of the frequency spectrum (which I percieve as a root of most the hubbub) it will affect.

Given ( what I see as fact) that wire is passive, the only thing it can do to make bass richer and/or overall sound warmer, is to start rolling-off the higher frequencies, usually in a rather logical, progressive fashion...which flies in the face of comments re: soundstage and depth, two qualities which seem to diminish to a degree (at least in my experience) when either electronic OR mechanical means are used to control them.

If there is something to measure, neither side seems to be champing at the bit to do so...one could care less and considers it all so much folly and the other side has a vested interest and may consider it suicidal.

Again, whatever information we need to provide any "environmentals" or "details" simply must be in the source material...nothing, not the most expensive or esoteric cart/tone-arm, CD transport or DAC, amplification chain, wiring or loudspeaker system will provide these qualities. If they do, they are an artifice...a distortion, far from the ideal of straight wire with gain.

jimHJJ(...and that's my story and I'm stickin' to it...)

[musicoverall]

...somewhere in the deep, dark, past...I recall an album (that's what we used to call them) which may have been Dave Mason's "Alone Together"...notable mostly for it's packaging and the marbled, multi-hued vinyl it was pressed on...not that the content was shabby mind you. I say may have, because thirty-six years is long ago and far away, and much was listened to through a smokey haze, but be that as it may, there was one track on the album that, according to the liner notes, was not compatable with monophonic playback. It certainly wasn't, smoke notwithstanding.

The inclusion of out-of-phase information on this track, expanded the apparent sounstage dramatically, extending it well beyond the loudspeaker's normal dispersion pattern. In mono, lotsa' stuff was cancelled out so it didn't sound too good at all.

Do some aftermarket wires futz with phase relationships? Given the fact that plain ol' vanilla wiring is older than the hobby, I'm comfortable with the contention that wire is wire and anything that skews the final product in some manner, while pleasing to the individual taste of the listener, isn't the highest of fi.

Another thing to consider is bandwidth...high-order harmonics may or may not play a part in the perception of air and space and...???

After playing around with some small 2-way loudspeakers, I have found enclosure positioning AND little bits of strategically-placed felt and other sound absorbing materials to provide what I consider dramatic changes, not only to the apparent bass output, but also into what is termed depth and soundstage. Using smaller systems as nearfield radiators simplifies things to a great degree, as the smaller environment tends to eliminate certain room-sized/distance problems from the equation.

One thing I have difficulty accepting, is that by most accounts some seemingly unrelated sonic changes can ocurr as though the upscale wiring seems to have the uncanny ability to pick and choose the parts of the frequency spectrum (which I percieve as a root of most the hubbub) it will affect.

Given ( what I see as fact) that wire is passive, the only thing it can do to make bass richer and/or overall sound warmer, is to start rolling-off the higher frequencies, usually in a rather logical, progressive fashion...which flies in the face of comments re: soundstage and depth, two qualities which seem to diminish to a degree (at least in my experience) when either electronic OR mechanical means are used to control them.

If there is something to measure, neither side seems to be champing at the bit to do so...one could care less and considers it all so much folly and the other side has a vested interest and may consider it suicidal.

Again, whatever information we need to provide any "environmentals" or "details" simply must be in the source material...nothing, not the most expensive or esoteric cart/tone-arm, CD transport or DAC, amplification chain, wiring or loudspeaker system will provide these qualities. If they do, they are an artifice...a distortion, far from the ideal of straight wire with gain.

jimHJJ(...and that's my story and I'm stickin' to it...)

...and your post was very much so, hence I'm quoting it in its entirety.

All I can say is that my POV is that high definition cables simply pass more information from the recording. It's certainly already there but zip cord "futzes" with it and doesn't let it all pass. But I'm perfectly willing to accept your contention as a possibility. So far all I know is that different wires (and electronics, etc) sound different. I also know that the components I've chosen not only do a better job of recreating my idea of the live experience, they also make excellent recordings sound better and poor recordings sound worse... which would at least hint at high fidelity. While I can still enjoy music through a much more modest system, it isn't ideal.

But because of the hullabaloo among the science types, yours may be the more rational approach. As you say, it likely won't be proven either way any time soon, although jneutron has hinted that he may be looking into this at some point.

[ruadmaa]

...and your post was very much so, hence I'm quoting it in its entirety.

All I can say is that my POV is that high definition cables simply pass more information from the recording. It's certainly already there but zip cord "futzes" with it and doesn't let it all pass. But I'm perfectly willing to accept your contention as a possibility. So far all I know is that different wires (and electronics, etc) sound different. I also know that the components I've chosen not only do a better job of recreating my idea of the live experience, they also make excellent recordings sound better and poor recordings sound worse... which would at least hint at high fidelity. While I can still enjoy music through a much more modest system, it isn't ideal.

But because of the hullabaloo among the science types, yours may be the more rational approach. As you say, it likely won't be proven either way any time soon, although jneutron has hinted that he may be looking into this at some point.

"It's certainly already there but zip cord "futzes" with it and doesn't let it all pass"

Exactly what frequencies doesn't zip cord let pass??? I am certainly interested to hear your answer on this one.

Esoteric cables would, if anything, act as a tone control restricting higher frequencies rather than pass more information.

[musicoverall]

"It's certainly already there but zip cord "futzes" with it and doesn't let it all pass"

Exactly what frequencies doesn't zip cord let pass??? I am certainly interested to hear your answer on this one.

Esoteric cables would, if anything, act as a tone control restricting higher frequencies rather than pass more information.

First of all, I didn't say anything about "frequencies" - I said "information"... in the case of my cables vs zip cord, the latter doesn't pass all the soundstaging or imaging information.

My cables also do not restrict HF, nor did I notice zip cord doing so. In fact, I did not hear any FR anomalies with either cable during my listening tests. I made no claims about FR, either here recently or during my listening tests. If soundstaging and imaging are about FR, then I stand corrected but I'm afraid I don't know what frequencies are affected with zipcord. At this point, it's doubtful anyone does. That's the basis of my contention that we aren't measuring all we could be with cables. LCR parameters as they stand obviously aren't sufficient.

[Florian]

Wow, you guys are still talking? I went to three concerts in the meantime, build a new wall in my listening room and compared two speaker cables which measure the same but soud different.Well at least you guys are dedicated to something.!

[FLZapped]

Wow, you guys are still talking? I went to three concerts in the meantime, build a new wall in my listening room and compared two speaker cables which measure the same but soud different.Well at least you guys are dedicated to something.!

Well, that is certainly nice, however, I believe there are a few questions that are begging an answer from you.

-Bruce